Is The Rapture and Jesus' 2nd Coming Really Two Separate Events?

[gomerian]

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them My people, which were not My people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

I lack the energy to reconcile that, with the Revelation of Jesus.

I spend all of my energy, siting at Jesus' feet. Jesus is my only Teacher. From Him, I see all the connections that I will ever need.
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Matthew 11:29 "Take My yoke upon you, and learn from Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls."

Matthew 14:26 "But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

Matthew 28:20 "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you"

John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life."
...

 

[gomerian]

Still... no one has come forward to explain the Genesis 35 & 48 prophecies that Jacob's seed was to become "a company of nations" and Ephraim's seed was to become "a multitude of nations". Those mean Israelite nations too.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Matthew 24:35 "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away."

 

[Davy]

John 12:48 He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Matthew 24:35 "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away."

If you're trying to say something, why don't you just come out and say it? Just posting verses as some kind reconciliation for not looking into the Scriptures I'm pointing to is no excuse. It only proves my point.

 

[gomerian]

My point about laziness is with those who stay in the NT, and treat the OT Books as nothing but history.

Who does that?

 

[gomerian]

Gomer, Do you keep the 7th day sundown to sundown Sabbath of the Sinai Covenant?
Let me rephrase that...
Do you claim to keep the 7th day sundown to sundown Sabbath of the Sinai Covenant?

What you seemed to be saying is that you don't keep the Sabbath... which got morphed into nobody kept any part of the Law, ever. And you've called me a liar twice, now. I'm doubting you'll apologize, if you're like most people.

King David was saved by faith, instead of works.

If you don't think that repentance is works, then you've never done it. And David is always telling us he meditates on the Law... did you think he was just kidding?

You need to spend some time reading Hebrews chapter 11.

I lack the energy to reconcile that, with the Revelation of Jesus.

Anyone who claims to be keeping the 10 commandments does not require someone else calling him a liar. You are claiming to do something that only Christ has done.

Then, according to you, everyone has always and forever,

had a pantheon of gods,
covered every wall with idols,
taken the authority of the LORD falsely,
worked everyone like a dog on Sabbath,
Phariseed father and mother,
murdered humans,
apostacized/adulterized,
robbed their neighbors blind,
lied to put someone in jail,
wanted everyone else's everything.

Seriously?
Nobody has ever kept from doing any of that? Not even after they started (and kept on) following Jesus? And I thought I was a cynic. You must be thinking that Jesus wasted His time.

 

[gomerian]

If you're trying to say something, why don't you just come out and say it? Just posting verses as some kind reconciliation for not looking into the Scriptures I'm pointing to is no excuse. It only proves my point.

The scriptures you're pointing at aren't news to me.
But I don't think the same as you do about... well, anything, really.

 

[BABerean2]

What you seemed to be saying is that you don't keep the Sabbath... which got morphed into nobody kept any part of the Law, ever. And you've called me a liar twice, now. I'm doubting you'll apologize, if you're like most people.



If you don't think that repentance is works, then you've never done it. And David is always telling us he meditates on the Law... did you think he was just kidding?



I lack the energy to reconcile that, with the Revelation of Jesus.



Then, according to you, everyone has always and forever,

had a pantheon of gods,
covered every wall with idols,
taken the authority of the LORD falsely,
worked everyone like a dog on Sabbath,
Phariseed father and mother,
murdered humans,
apostacized/adulterized,
robbed their neighbors blind,
lied to put someone in jail,
wanted everyone else's everything.

Seriously?
Nobody has ever kept from doing any of that? Not even after they started (and kept on) following Jesus? And I thought I was a cynic. You must be thinking that Jesus wasted His time.

Gomer,

You go from one extreme to the other, in an attempt to make your doctrine work.
We are not lawless.
We are under the commandments of Christ, not for our salvation, but for our conduct.
There are two different sets of commandments in John 15:10.

The fourth commandment is the "sign" of the now "obsolete" (Hebrews 7:12, Hebrews 8:13, Hebrews 10:16-18) Sinai Covenant.

Col 2:16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,
Col 2:17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.


We are not come to the mountain that burns with fire, but instead to Mount Sion and the heavenly Jerusalem of the New Covenant. (Hebrews 12:18-24)

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[Davy]

The scriptures you're pointing at aren't news to me.
But I don't think the same as you do about... well, anything, really.

And that's definitely no great loss to me.

 

[gomerian]

And that's definitely no great loss to me.

Very well then, I should expect you to shun my threads, yes?

 

[BABerean2]

Very well then, I should expect you to shun my threads, yes?

Have you claimed the Book of Luke, is not the inspired Word of God?

.

 

[gomerian]

Have you claimed the Book of Luke, is not the inspired Word of God?

.

I'm done with this thread, in case you need to be told. Say what you want to say to me on my own threads, or talk about me behind my back... your choice.

And if you want to think that Luke is inspired, I won't stop you.

 

[iamlamad]

Davy wrote,

Mark 13:27
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

Which saints are gathered? = "His elect from the four winds"
Where from and to are these saints gathered? = "from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven"

The Mark 13 example is about those saints alive on earth that are "caught up" to Jesus on that day. Thus Jesus also covered the 1 Thessalonians 4 event right there in His Olivet Discourse.

Sorry, But this is simply not truth. Paul's rapture of 1 thes. Gathers ONLY from earth. Luke is writing of a DIFFERENT gathering.
The dead are not buried in heaven, they are buried ON EARTH. And those who are alive and remain are ON EARTH.

 

[BABerean2]

Davy wrote,


Sorry, But this is simply not truth. Paul's rapture of 1 thes. Gathers ONLY from earth. Luke is writing of a DIFFERENT gathering.
The dead are not buried in heaven, they are buried ON EARTH. And those who are alive and remain are ON EARTH.

The timing of the event at the end of 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 is found at the beginning of chapter 5.

The words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove that the two chapters are connected.

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[iamlamad]

Davy wrote,

In 1 Thessalonians 4, Apostle Paul showed the so-called 'rapture' (as "caught up" in the KJV), and the resurrection, as being of the same timing when Jesus comes:

1 Thess 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

Those "asleep" represent the saints that have died. Paul said Jesus will bring those with Him (from Heaven) when He comes. How will our Lord Jesus bring them unless He first raises them? He does raise them first, as Paul will show you in the next verses:

Again a serious flaw in your theory. Jesus will bring the spirits of those who have died in christ with him, but this is not a part of the rapture; It comes long before the rapture. You cannot include a gathering in heaven as a part of the rapture. Those who where buried are buried ON EARTH and God will raise up their bodies from the grave (ON EARTH) and their spirits will join with their bodies (ON EARTH) and they will rise up with those who are alive and caught up, and together (ON EARTH) they will rise up into the clouds.

WHEN does this happen? Why not ask Paul who received the revelation of this:

Paul tells us that HIS gathering (the rapture) will come as the trigger for the start of the Day of the Lord. AT the same time those in Christ are rising, sudden destruction comes on those left behind, and that sudden destruction is the start of the wrath of God. It is therefore IMPOSSIBLE that this event happens at the end of the week. Paul's gathering is the trigger that begins the week.

 

[BABerean2]

It is therefore IMPOSSIBLE that this event happens at the end of the week. Paul's gathering is the trigger that begins the week.

Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to "the house of Israel" (Acts of the Apostles 2:36) before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles.

The only way to see the 70th week of Daniel is with a time machine set to return you to the first century.


Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

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[Davy]

Davy wrote,


Sorry, But this is simply not truth. Paul's rapture of 1 thes. Gathers ONLY from earth. Luke is writing of a DIFFERENT gathering.
The dead are not buried in heaven, they are buried ON EARTH. And those who are alive and remain are ON EARTH.

But it is... the truth of God's Word. You have simply not recognized it, so no doubt it seems like a foreign idea to you with no link to 1 Thess.4, but it is the same events Paul described. I laid the Scripture out but you didn't read it all:

GATHERING OF THE ASLEEP SAINTS FROM HEAVEN:
Matt 24:31
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

GATHERING OF THE ALIVE SAINTS ON EARTH:
Mark 13:27
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

That is perfectly in line with what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.4 about Jesus' coming to gather His Church.

And I can guarantee you, Jesus is not going to gather only part of His Church without gathering His elect at the same time, which also IS... His Church, the Apostles even being part of the main foundation of it!

 

[Choose Wisely]

The events Jesus gave in His Olivet Discourse are about the very end of this world.

Just as Christ's enemies that push the lie that those Scriptures aren't for the Church, so likewise He has enemies on the other extreme that try to push the lie that those things came to pass in 70 A.D. and were history.

Like I said, the event regarding Israel in Luke 21 occurred in 70AD. The event regarding Israel in Matt 24 and Mark 13 is a future event. All you have to do is read what it says........CLEARLY.

 

[James2018]

Is the Rapture and Jesus' 2nd coming actually TWO separate events, as some doctrines of men teach ?
---------------------------------------------------
You asked a question, answered the question
and categorized everyone who disagrees
as having false doctrine.

 

[BABerean2]

Like I said, the event regarding Israel in Luke 21 occurred in 70AD. The event regarding Israel in Matt 24 and Mark 13 is a future event. All you have to do is read what it says........CLEARLY.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
(If you want to "understand" this verse, read John 10:22.)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains;

You might notice that the exact same words are found in the second verse of each Gospel, clearly showing that they are parallel accounts.

Matthew's Gospel was written to a Jewish audience which celebrated Hanukkah each year and would fully "understand" the events of 167 BC. See John 10:22.

Luke's Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience who may not "understand" the fact that Antiochus Epiphanes attacked the city, killing thousands of Jews, and stopped the temple sacrifices during 167 BC. The city would also be attacked and the temple sacrifices would be stopped again during 70 AD. See Luke 19:41-44.

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[SonOfZion]

For example Malachi 4:5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

If that thing spoken by Paul was the same day as this day of the LORD spoken in Malachi then it could not be mystery because it was revealed long before .

But it is mystery .

Jude 14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.


So Enoch was alredy preaching of Christ comming with saints , it could not be mystery if that was the same event .

Plus if Jesus comes back with his saints he must have taken them up first right

Chinchilla said

Plus if Jesus comes back with His saints He must have taken them up first right.

No, the saints that He returns with, are those that have already Died


1 Thessalonians 5:14
For if we believe that YESHUA died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in YESHUA will Elohim bring with Him.

15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Adonai, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Adonai shall not go before them which are asleep.


And others upvoted this clear misunderstanding of what is so easy to refute.


Revelation 1:7
Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.

Matthew 24:43
But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Revelation 3:3
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

1 Thessalonians 5:2
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Adonai cometh as a thief in the night.


YESHUA's Second Coming is as a thief is upon those who are not watching, those that watch, escape and will be alive and remain on A Future YOM TERUAH when He shall return.