Is The Rapture and Jesus' 2nd Coming Really Two Separate Events?

[gomerian]

But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

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Matthew 15:24 But [Jesus] answered and said, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Isaiah 43:1 "But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and He that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called [thee] by thy name; thou [art] Mine. 2 When thou passest through the waters, I [will be] with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee. 3 For I [am] the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt [for] thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee. 4 Since thou wast precious in My sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life. ... 10 Ye [are] My witnesses, saith the LORD, and My servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I [am] He: before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me."

Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred forty four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
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[BABerean2]

Matthew 15:24 But [Jesus] answered and said, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Isaiah 43:1 "But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and He that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called [thee] by thy name; thou [art] Mine. 2 When thou passest through the waters, I [will be] with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee. 3 For I [am] the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt [for] thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee. 4 Since thou wast precious in My sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life. ... 10 Ye [are] My witnesses, saith the LORD, and My servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I [am] He: before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me."

Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred forty four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
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Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.


Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—


Act 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."


Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews.

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[gomerian]

Act 2:14 ...

Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews.

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Yes, a first right of refusal.

Re: Luke's compilation: since we can clearly see what Matthew and John tell us about the return of Jesus, we can know for a fact that the people Luke hung out with didn't believe the the Disciple-Apostles.
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[BABerean2]

Yes, a first right of refusal.

Re: Luke's compilation: since we can clearly see what Matthew and John tell us about the return of Jesus, we can know for a fact that the people Luke hung out with didn't believe the the Disciple-Apostles.
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Are you saying the Book of Luke is not an inspired writing?

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[gomerian]

John 17:20 "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;
Matthew 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world."
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When the underlined parts above are equal, 'whosoever will' can believe on Jesus.
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Are you saying the Book of Luke is not an inspired writing?

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Had I been involved with creating New Testament Bible Canon, I would choose WHAT JESUS TAUGHT HIS DISCIPLE-APOSTLES.
... Other writings would be kept in a loose-leaf notebook.

Specifics

1:1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,
1:2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;

The Disciple-Apostles who walked with Jesus from the beginning don't know of anyone named Luke. Luke the compiler doesn't tell us who "they" might have been, so there's no way of knowing who those "eyewitnesses" were; nor do we know what Luke means by "ministers of the word".

There were certainly multitudes of unbelievers who were eyewitnesses, there were even false prophets, false Jews and false apostles wandering Bible lands. Moreover, since we know nothing at all about the character of a compiler named Luke, can you bet your life on what he wrote?


Lord to whom shall we go?
Thou hast the words of Eternal Life.

 

[BABerean2]

Moreover, since we know nothing at all about the character of a compiler named Luke, can you bet your life on what he wrote?

Col_4:14 Luke the beloved physician and Demas greet you.


2Ti_4:11 Only Luke is with me. Get Mark and bring him with you, for he is useful to me for ministry.


Phm_1:24 as do Mark, Aristarchus, Demas, Luke, my fellow laborers.

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[gomerian]

Luke the beloved physician
Luke is with me
Luke, my fellow laborers

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From that list, it seems that your author is the source of Luke's compilation.

But the Disciple-Apostles which physically walked with Jesus for over 3 years never heard of doctor Luke.
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[BABerean2]

But the Disciple-Apostles which physically walked with Jesus for over 3 years never heard of doctor Luke.

You are making an unfounded claim, if you think Peter or John never heard of Dr. Luke.

It was Dr. Luke who recorded the Book of Acts and who is a part of the "we" in the account of Paul's shipwreck at the Island of Malta.

Act_27:3 And the next day we landed at Sidon. And Julius treated Paul kindly and gave him liberty to go to his friends and receive care.

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[gomerian]

You are making an unfounded claim, if you think Peter or John never heard of Dr. Luke.

It was Dr. Luke who recorded the Book of Acts and who is a part of the "we" in the account of Paul's shipwreck at the Island of Malta.

Act_27:3 And the next day we landed at Sidon. And Julius treated Paul kindly and gave him liberty to go to his friends and receive care.

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Circular reasoning will not work. You cannot use a record to prove the same record, you must use other materials which exist outside of the record in question. Can you produce external records?

If I say that I wrote this book about myself, and therefore it must be believed, because it must be true... I have attempted to use circular logic. But until I can find someone other than myself who has written substantially the same thing, my story has no evidentiary support. Which means that my story then depends solely upon my (albeit unknown) character, or the extreme gulibility of a reader who has never met me and knows no one of proven good character who has ever met me (and also trusted me), and the reader who only wishes to believe in the story which I have told. All that might work for a book of fiction, but it will not hold up in court... neither should it be used as the basis of a religion which seeks to save.
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[BABerean2]

Circular reasoning will not work. You cannot use a record to prove the same record, you must use other materials which exist outside of the record in question. Can you produce external records?

Maybe you can take your own advice about circular reasoning.

Col_4:14 Luke the beloved physician and Demas greet you.

2Ti_4:11 Only Luke is with me. Get Mark and bring him with you, for he is useful to me for ministry.

Phm_1:24 as do Mark, Aristarchus, Demas, Luke, my fellow laborers.


If you reject the verses above, you are also rejecting the letters written by the Apostle Paul.

If that is the case, you should not be commenting on this forum, because you are in violation of the statement of faith that this Christian forum is based upon.

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[gomerian]

Maybe you can take your own advice about circular reasoning.
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I don't think you understand what circular reasoning means, BABerean2. Go back and read what I've written, and see if you have any evidentiary support for that theory.

If you choose the game of character assassination to win a debate... well... it's impossible to hold a conversation with someone who takes his ball and goes home. Are you already out of moves, BABerean2?
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[BABerean2]

I don't think you understand what circular reasoning means, BABerean2. Go back and read what I've written, and see if you have any evidentiary support for that theory.

If you choose the game of character assassination to win a debate... well... it's impossible to hold a conversation with someone who takes his ball and goes home. Are you already out of moves, BABerean2?
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You are the one who is claiming Luke is not a reliable source.
That means you do not believe the Book of Luke or the Book of Acts is God's Word.

Can you find one other person on this forum who agrees with you?

Col_4:14 Luke the beloved physician and Demas greet you.

2Ti_4:11 Only Luke is with me. Get Mark and bring him with you, for he is useful to me for ministry.

Phm_1:24 as do Mark, Aristarchus, Demas, Luke, my fellow laborers.


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[gomerian]

Can you find one other person on this forum who agrees with you?

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? Matthew 18:16 But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. ?

Matthew 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

Frankly, I'll love that one person who agrees with my signature block.
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[BABerean2]

? Matthew 18:16 But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. ?

Matthew 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

Frankly, I'll love that one person who agrees with my signature block.
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The following comes from the "Statement of Faith" found at the upper-right of this page.

Your challenge of the canon of scripture is in violation of the Statement of Faith for this part of the forum.


"Challenging Paul's position as an Apostle of Jesus Christ who (although not one of the original twelve) was sent forth by Christ after his conversion [Acts 9:15-16], or arguing against the inclusion of Paul's writings in the New Testament canon, is not allowed in any "Christians Only" forums (including the Controversial Christian Theology forum). You may disagree on the interpretation and application of his writings, but not their place as canon or Paul as an inspired author of Scripture."

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[gomerian]

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"Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for My sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great [is] your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you."
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[Davy]

I think perhaps there isn't enough evidence to make a decision one way or 'tother.

There actually is, and it was given by our Lord Jesus in His Olivet Discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13. The problem has been His enemies who are against His Church learning about it.

In the first part of His Olivet Discourse, He is covering events leading up to the time of "great tribulation", which is about the time prior to the appearance of the Antichrist and prior to the placing of the "abomination of desolation". Then when He warns of the abomination from the Book of Daniel, that is when He said it will be a time of "great tribulation", and warns of the coming pseudo-Christ (KJV "false Christs" = Greek pseudochristos which means 'a spurious Messiah').

That same event of the coming false messiah, or the Antichrist, is the same one Apostle Paul was warning of in 2 Thess. 2, and that John was shown in Revelation 13. There is even another warning about the coming Antichrist at the end of this world again in 2 Cor.11 about not being deceived by the "another Jesus".

These specific points in God's Word about the end are disregarded by the socialist churches which will lead their whole congregations astray at the very end of this world.

 

[Davy]

You might start by figuring out that Israel being discussed in Luke 21 is at the timeline 70AD. The Israel being discussed in Matt 24 and Mark13 is a future event. The scripture is very clear on this. It not even something that can be questioned by anyone that wants to know the truth.

The events Jesus gave in His Olivet Discourse are about the very end of this world.

Just as Christ's enemies that push the lie that those Scriptures aren't for the Church, so likewise He has enemies on the other extreme that try to push the lie that those things came to pass in 70 A.D. and were history.

 

[Davy]

To think that Gentiles have been changed into Hebrews is replacement theology... there is nothing on Earth more covetous than that.

There is no such thing as "replacement theology". That is a construct of orthodox Judaism, simply pushed by Judahizers against Christ's Church. Christ's Church is made up of both believing Israelite and believing Gentile as one body. In Matthew 21, Jesus revealed this when He said the symbolic vineyard would be taken from the rebellious Jews and instead given to a nation that would bear its fruits. That prophecy goes along with Romans 11 about the remnant according to the election of grace which God preserved in The Gospel.

In case you still don't 'get it', from what I revealed above, it means this: God moving His promises and blessings to Christ's Church is simply about the continuation of His 'true' Israel, the congregation of believers on Him through His Son Jesus Christ, which is about the Promise by Faith first given to Abraham (Galatians 3). This congregation continued from OT times via the remnant according to the election of grace which God Himself preserved in The Gospel (Rom.11). And they carried The Gospel to the Gentiles as commanded by Christ (Acts 9). All others, whether born of Israel or as a Gentile that refuse Christ Jesus as God's Promised Savior... will be cut off.

The OT prophecies about Israel's future in the world to come are involving the remnant of Israel according to the election of grace, along with believing Gentiles. Both together are in The Gospel of Jesus Christ now, and will continue to be after Jesus returns. That is His Church.

Isa 19:23-25
23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.

24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:

25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, 'Blessed be Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel Mine inheritance.'
KJV

That is only for the future world to come.

 

[BABerean2]

The events Jesus gave in His Olivet Discourse are about the very end of this world.

Just as Christ's enemies that push the lie that those Scriptures aren't for the Church, so likewise He has enemies on the other extreme that try to push the lie that those things came to pass in 70 A.D. and were history.

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles,

.................................................... until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled...............................................................................................................

This is the dividing line between the events of 70 AD, which are found above, and Christ's future Second Coming, which is found below.

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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[Davy]

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles,

.................................................... until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled...............................................................................................................

This is the dividing line between the events of 70 AD, which are found above, and Christ's future Second Coming, which is found below.

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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Not quite complete.

The destruction of 70 A.D. Jerusalem is covered as a 'type' for the final destruction of Zechariah 14 when Jesus' feet touch down upon the Mount of Olives on the last day of this present world (i.e., the "day of the Lord"). That's why today on the Temple Mount complex of buildings the Dome of the Rock is there, and also the old huge stones of the Wailing Wall. On the "day of the Lord" none of those stones will be on top of one another.

The subject His disciples asked Him about included the events of the end of the world and of His 2nd coming (Matt.24:3).

My coverage of it:

Luke 21:5-35
5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, He said,
6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

In the Matthew 24 version, they ask Him about the sign of the end of the world and of His coming. The concept there of "these things" may not seem important, but it seals all these signs together for the very end of this world. Does some of it serve as a 'type' for the 70 A.D. destruction? Yes, just as how Antiochus Epiphanes in 170 B.C. served as a type for the future Antichrist that will place the "abomination of desolation" in a new temple in Jerusalem in our future.


8 And He said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in My name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

That is about the idea of the "many antichrists" which John spoke of. It still continues to today. But none of those are the Antichrist that's to come.


9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

That is still for our time today, as the opposite of war is a time of world peace, the "Peace and safety" the deceived will be saying at the end according to Apostle Paul.


10 Then said He unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

These also are still coming to pass, and this includes events that will occur during the time of "great tribulation", because remember the plagues God's two witnesses will have power to do for the latter 1260 days.


12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

Those events include from the times of the early Apostles and disciples up to the very last day of this world. It is the only way this section of Scripture fits the idea "But before all these...". It is linked throughout Church history, but is especially for the time of "great tribulation", because God's two witnesses are to prophesy against the beast for 1260 days, and it mentions 2 candlesticks (Churches per Rev.1) with them. Jesus told the Church at Smyrna some of them would be delivered up and have tribulation 10 days, and to be faithful even unto death, and they would be given a crown of Life (Rev.2). The 5th Seal of Rev.6 is specifically about the delivering up of some of the saints to give a Testimony for Jesus Christ, and will be beheaded for it. In Acts 2, Peter quoted from the Book of Joel about the cloven tongue, which Joel 2 reveals it is to manifest at the very end just prior to the coming "day of the Lord". That will be this event in final with God's two witnesses and the two candlesticks giving Witness by The Holy Spirit. All the world will hear it in each person's own dialect of birth.


20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Even though this is given just prior to the placing of the abomination of desolation by the coming Antichrist to Jerusalem, that's what timing it is. Antichrist's armies will surround Jerusalem for the very end. Rev.11:1-2 shows the Gentiles will tread the city for 42 months, the timespan of the reign of the dragon of Rev.13. This "desolation" is not the 70 A.D. event. It's the "sudden destruction" event Paul mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 5 that's to occur on the "day of the Lord".


21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Could that fleeing be construed with the 70 A.D. events? Yes. But the 70 A.D. would only serve as a type, because the "days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled" is about God's day of vengeance on the "day of the Lord", the final day of this world. The latter part of the Isaiah 61:2 verse is about that day of vengeance, which is the time of Jesus' 2nd coming.


23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

Most only see that literally, about hardships upon pregnant women in those days. Yet God used the idea of being found with child as a spiritual metaphor in OT prophecy. Paul used in 2 Corinthians 11, and in 1 Thessalonians 5. It's the deceived that will not have remained "a chaste virgin" to Christ Jesus when He comes. And that's the timing here, the manifesting of the Antichrist and the 'abomination of desolation' idol in Jerusalem for the end.


24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The first part of that verse can be construed for the time of the 70 A.D. events. The Romans did lead away the Jews after they destroyed Jerusalem and the temple. But that part in green links to the Revelation 11:1-2 events for the end of this world when the Gentile armies will tread the holy city for 42 months, when the Antichrist comes to power.



25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Those verses are definitely about the events of Christ's 2nd coming.


28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Our Lord is answering His disciple's question about "these things", i.e. the signs leading up to His 2nd coming. Was He telling them in their generation back then they would see "these things"? No, which is what His next teaching is about...


29 And He spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

The parable of the fig tree is about the planting of it, which occurred only in 1948 with Israel becoming a nation again. In Jeremiah 24, God promised Judah He would bring them back to the holy land and not remove them again (that only applied to a remnant, not all).

The idea of "when ye see these things come to pass" linked with "This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled", places ALL these events in the final generation on earth. That will be the generation that will see Jesus' second coming.