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Coccyx - tale of a creationist disinformation post

pitabread

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What I am afraid of is that, given the political situation in this country, it will become a real war.

I think the US would need a sustained economic implosion before anything like would ever happen. Given they already weathered the 2008 financial crisis without descending into civil war, I wouldn't be too worried.
 
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Speedwell

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I think the US would need a sustained economic implosion before anything like would ever happen. Given they already weathered the 2008 financial crisis without descending into civil war, I wouldn't be too worried.
There may not be a war, but I think if their Anointed One is forced to leave office there will be some kind of a violent response.
 
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Bible Research Tools

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"Bible Research Tools, post: 72847427, member: 409605How could they remain distinct if they were not? My understanding, based on the literature, is that the flood waters contained some sort of cementing agent that partially hardened each layer shortly after it was deposited. That would give the critter prints time to partially "set" between tidal surges.

woulda shoulda coulda isn’t evidence

Nor is,

"Given enough time, our theories will be proven right!"

"How much time do you need?"

"More . . . "

For the record, many creation scientists have PhD's. His "partner's in crime", geologists Andrew Snelling and Steve Austin, have PhD's from the University of Sydney and Penn State, respectively.

Austin and Snelling incompetents and/or liars. Take your pick . Snelling the man who dated a 50 year old rock with a technique normally used on billion year old rocks . It’s like trying to measure a bacterium with a yardstick and about as useful. Sorry ......no!

Pitiful. I was expecting more out of you.

Why should a scientist be required to tell a lab how old they think a rock is before it can be dated? And what if they do not know how old the rock is?

The answer is, "Radiometric dating is a scam -- a fraud". It is a perpetuation of the "Index Fossil" scam, where rocks were dated according to the guestimated dates of "Index Fossils", and fossils were dated according to the "date" of the rocks that were determined by the "Index Fossils" found in them. There are few better examples of circular reasoning than those used to "date" rocks and fossils.

For the record, Andrew Snelling didn't date anything because creation scientists do not have labs. They use secular labs. So please refrain from muddying the waters (I am trying to be kind).

Dan
 
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Bible Research Tools

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So the theory of evolution is not an atheist conspiracy to deny the truth of the Bible, it's an Anglican conspiracy? I had no idea, but we'll gladly take credit for it.

Don't be silly.

Dan
 
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You see, when working as a scientist , and particularly a geologist "I don't know enough about the area" will get you fired because it demonstrates an inability to read and to do research.

At the very least, you brainstorm solutions to the delimma. You don't just completely change the subject.

You've failed.

Until you are able to explain the big picture, you have failed.

Dan
 
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pitabread

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The answer is, "Radiometric dating is a scam -- a fraud".

But why though?

What would be the possible value in faking the age of rocks on this planet? That just seems dumb.
 
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You're writing creationist fantasy fiction. You've conjured an imaginary enemy so you can fight in an imaginary war.

Good luck with that. ^_^

My statements about the plight of our once great nation have nothing to do with creationism, and everything to do with secular humanism.

But I do agree it may be a hopeless cause. The masses have been so dumbed-down by the fantasy-world of covetousness that I am not sure there is a way to recover.

Nation destruction happens every time socialists/communists trick the people into believing the economy is a pie to slice and distribute, and not a bakery to make more and more pies to bake and sell. Why should I expect the current situation to be any different?

Dan
 
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Speedwell

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My statements about the plight of our once great nation have nothing to do with creationism, and everything to do with secular humanism.

But I do agree it may be a hopeless cause. The masses have been so dumbed-down by the fantasy-world of covetousness that I am not sure there is a way to recover.

Nation destruction happens every time socialists/communists trick the people into believing the economy is a pie to slice and distribute, and not a bakery to make more and more pies to bake and sell. Why should I expect the current situation to be any different?

Dan
And if we were all right-wing Fundamentalist Protestants all our problems would be solved.

But if you want to blame our decline into secularism on a scientific theory, there are much better candidates than the theory of evolution.
 
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pitabread

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My statements about the plight of our once great nation have nothing to do with creationism, and everything to do with secular humanism.

If you're upset about secular humanism then just say so instead of making up silly words like "evolutionism". Conflating secular humanism with science just confuses the discussion and muddles any points you might be trying to make.
 
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Ophiolite

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Some basic concepts of radiometric dating for interested readers of this thread:

1. Elements can have multipile isotopes: atoms with the same number of protons, but different numbers of electrons.
2. Some of these isotopes are unstable and decay, this decay proceeding at a constant rate.
3. This rate is normally expressed in term of the half life of the isotope. Thus the half life of C14 is a little over 5,000 years. This means after 5,000 years half of the C14 present in a sample will have decayed. 5,000 years later half of the C14 that remained will have decayed and so on.
4. Some isotopes have much shorter half lifes than this and some have much longer ones. For example U238 has a half life of about 4.5 billion years.
5. In the simplest case we measure the amount of unstable isotope in a sample and the amount of its daughter product and a basic calcualtion yields the age of sample.
6. In the more complex cases a century of research by thousands of workers has provided appropriate precautions and corrections to avoid contamination, or address the issue where some of the daughter isotope could have been present from the outset, and similar complications.
7. If you tried to measure the age of something a billion years old using C14, for example, there would be practically no original C14 left. Equally, U238 would be inappropriate for determining the age of something only 50,000 years old. (Just do the maths!)
8. Some people believe this selection of an appropriate isotope for age determination based on the approximate expected age (within an order of magnitude) is somehow fraudulent. This belief is a mixture of ignorance and angst and is best ignored.
 
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tas8831

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There may not be a war, but I think if their Anointed One is forced to leave office there will be some kind of a violent response.
Sadly, such is the fruits of the cult of authoritarian personality we have with the Narcissist Child in Chief.

"... exploding their cannons..."
 
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tas8831

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The SC court ruling that usurped that power from the states and the people was "Emerson v. Board of Education", 1947.
Surely, a Constituitonal Scholar such as yourself understands the supremacy clause?

For over 150 years the states encouraged prayer in public schools without the slightest suspicion there was anything unconstitutional about it. Those were the days when you could go on vacation without locking your house, and for the life of a car without locking its doors.
Here we go...
Prayer in schools was not unconstitutional then, and it is not unconstitutional now, no matter what a few un-elected judges say. /quote]
This is a classic whiny snowflake myth - anybody CAN pray in school. What IS unconstitutional is teacher/administrator led prayer, for such folk are de factor representatives of the state, and leading prayer (always sectarian Christian prayer) in such an environment is coercive and a violation of the 1st amendment.

Not so hard to grasp unless, I suppose, your failing beliefs require forced adherence to dogma in violation of the rights of others.
 
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tas8831

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I am seeking out any solid evidence for evolutionary geology/paleontology or macroevolution.
So, you've completely given up on the coccyx in favor of dodging and burden shifting... Sigh..


The following is a nice progression fro testing of a methodology, to application of the tested methodology to evolutionary questions. Creationist replies to this have been lacking, to say the least.


---------------------------------------------------
I forget now who originally posted these on this forum, but I keep it in my archives because it offers a nice 'linear' progression of testing a methodology and then applying it:

The tested methodology:

Science 25 October 1991:
Vol. 254. no. 5031, pp. 554 - 558

Gene trees and the origins of inbred strains of mice

WR Atchley and WM Fitch

Extensive data on genetic divergence among 24 inbred strains of mice provide an opportunity to examine the concordance of gene trees and species trees, especially whether structured subsamples of loci give congruent estimates of phylogenetic relationships. Phylogenetic analyses of 144 separate loci reproduce almost exactly the known genealogical relationships among these 24 strains. Partitioning these loci into structured subsets representing loci coding for proteins, the immune system and endogenous viruses give incongruent phylogenetic results. The gene tree based on protein loci provides an accurate picture of the genealogical relationships among strains; however, gene trees based upon immune and viral data show significant deviations from known genealogical affinities.

======================

Science, Vol 255, Issue 5044, 589-592

Experimental phylogenetics: generation of a known phylogeny

DM Hillis, JJ Bull, ME White, MR Badgett, and IJ Molineux
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Although methods of phylogenetic estimation are used routinely in comparative biology, direct tests of these methods are hampered by the lack of known phylogenies. Here a system based on serial propagation of bacteriophage T7 in the presence of a mutagen was used to create the first completely known phylogeny. Restriction-site maps of the terminal lineages were used to infer the evolutionary history of the experimental lines for comparison to the known history and actual ancestors. The five methods used to reconstruct branching pattern all predicted the correct topology but varied in their predictions of branch lengths; one method also predicts ancestral restriction maps and was found to be greater than 98 percent accurate.

==================================

Science, Vol 264, Issue 5159, 671-677

Application and accuracy of molecular phylogenies

DM Hillis, JP Huelsenbeck, and CW Cunningham
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Molecular investigations of evolutionary history are being used to study subjects as diverse as the epidemiology of acquired immune deficiency syndrome and the origin of life. These studies depend on accurate estimates of phylogeny. The performance of methods of phylogenetic analysis can be assessed by numerical simulation studies and by the experimental evolution of organisms in controlled laboratory situations. Both kinds of assessment indicate that existing methods are effective at estimating phylogenies over a wide range of evolutionary conditions, especially if information about substitution bias is used to provide differential weightings for character transformations.



We can ASSUME that the results of an application of those methods have merit.


Application of the tested methodology:

Implications of natural selection in shaping 99.4% nonsynonymous DNA identity between humans and chimpanzees: Enlarging genus Homo

"Here we compare ≈90 kb of coding DNA nucleotide sequence from 97 human genes to their sequenced chimpanzee counterparts and to available sequenced gorilla, orangutan, and Old World monkey counterparts, and, on a more limited basis, to mouse. The nonsynonymous changes (functionally important), like synonymous changes (functionally much less important), show chimpanzees and humans to be most closely related, sharing 99.4% identity at nonsynonymous sites and 98.4% at synonymous sites. "



Mitochondrial Insertions into Primate Nuclear Genomes Suggest the Use of numts as a Tool for Phylogeny

"Moreover, numts identified in gorilla Supercontigs were used to test the human–chimp–gorilla trichotomy, yielding a high level of support for the sister relationship of human and chimpanzee."



A Molecular Phylogeny of Living Primates

"Once contentiously debated, the closest human relative of chimpanzee (Pan) within subfamily Homininae (Gorilla, Pan, Homo) is now generally undisputed. The branch forming the Homo andPanlineage apart from Gorilla is relatively short (node 73, 27 steps MP, 0 indels) compared with that of thePan genus (node 72, 91 steps MP, 2 indels) and suggests rapid speciation into the 3 genera occurred early in Homininae evolution. Based on 54 gene regions, Homo-Pan genetic distance range from 6.92 to 7.90×10−3 substitutions/site (P. paniscus and P. troglodytes, respectively), which is less than previous estimates based on large scale sequencing of specific regions such as chromosome 7[50]. "




Catarrhine phylogeny: noncoding DNA evidence for a diphyletic origin of the mangabeys and for a human-chimpanzee clade.

"The Superfamily Hominoidea for apes and humans is reduced to family Hominidae within Superfamily Cercopithecoidea, with all living hominids placed in subfamily Homininae; and (4) chimpanzees and humans are members of a single genus, Homo, with common and bonobo chimpanzees placed in subgenus H. (Pan) and humans placed in subgenus H. (Homo). It may be noted that humans and chimpanzees are more than 98.3% identical in their typical nuclear noncoding DNA and probably more than 99.5% identical in the active coding nucleotide sequences of their functional nuclear genes (Goodman et al., 1989, 1990). In mammals such high genetic correspondence is commonly found between sibling species below the generic level but not between species in different genera."

--------------------------------

Your turn.[/QUOTE]
 
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Bible Research Tools

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Also, you consisitently change the topic, I address the topic change and then without acknowledging me, you change it again. Over and over and over again.

In one topic, you asked me how rocks bend. I told you about research on brittle and ductile deformation and showed you images of strained trilobite fossils. You just never responded.
coaxial-strain.jpg



You brought up this idea that there was little to no bioturbation in the fossil record, I showed you research of complex tunnel networks and massive tunnels you could literally climb inside, along with plenty of other research papers discussion the obstruction of subsurface lamination. You never retracted your statement. It was as if you couldn't comprehend the fact that you were wrong.

You are not being candid with everyone. I was quoting Kurt Wise, and you know it.

You said fossil tracks of the Cal orcko formation in Bolivia were all in a single direction due to fleeing animals. I told you, no they aren't all in a single direction

You are correct. It appears I conflated several articles where dinosaurs were both running, and in the same direction, in contrast to some or all of those at Cal Orcko which were simply running.

and talked about pterodactyl tracks which shouldn't be there because flying animals wouldn't flee by waddling around. And your response? Oh well maybe the wind was too strong.

So? I admit was annoyed by your silly distractions.

You just consistently fail over and over and over again and you don't acknowledge it and you just change the subject as if prior conversations never occurred.

You need to be able to own up to your false statements and you need to be a mature adult and accept when you're wrong.

What you fail to understand is I really don't care about the "trees", but the "forest". Until you can resolve how the sediment layers were deposited, and how the fossil record was formed, all these little "gotchas" are little more than an annoyance.

Dan
 
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tas8831

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tas8831

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Hooo boy....
Aman777 said:
False, since Humans were not made first of flesh, but instead, of fire. We became flesh after Adam sinned.

Not that I want creationists to drag this thread even farther off topic, but I really have to see chapter and verse for this one.
We became identical to the sons of God (prehistoric people) who descended from the common ancestor of Apes.
Cool assertions. I'm betting that you will not even get 1 creationist to agree with you.
They had a coccyx. We will regain our image as our maker, at the Rapture without a coccyx. Amen?

No.
That's what all Godhaters say.
I hate God no more than I hate Santa or Osiris or Thor. The word salad you had produced bears no resemblance to any coherent, rational, or reasonable truth.
Copying Trump by dodging and weaving is their way of ignoring the answer and claiming that NO one has yet explained why we have a coccyx.

You see - and I know this is asking a lot of you - this thread was started NOT to explain to you why there is a coccyx. Rather, it was started to dissect the dishonest and largely incoherent rant posted here by a creationist breathlessly declaring that the coccyx cannot be vestigial.
I succeeded in that endeavor, and there are now like 30 pages of replies that are nearly all off-topic and otherwise filled with nonsense.

The coccyx is the caudal end of the vertebral column - which has to end somewhere, no? In tailed vertebrates, the coccyx is just the proximal part of the caudal extension of the vertebral column. In apes and other tailless primates, the caudal vertebrae end a few vertebrae past the sacrum.

That good enough for you?

Now please explain why the human coccyx cannot be vestigial, and support your claim with sat least some legitimate links, as I did.

It's like trying to get the little moron to understand calculus.
Talking to creationists on the internet about facts and science? I agree.
Your begging for a reason for a coccyx has been answered and your reply has now been refuted. Would you like Scripture? Amen?

You have a rather fantastical view of yourself.
 
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Bible Research Tools

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Then it should be easy to prove - why don't you refute the 'non' science of evolution, why hasn't this been done in science already? Instead and in the face of your unfounded assertion, it's probably the most well-supported scientific theory we've ever had.

Let me guess. Is it because the evolutionism orthodoxy controls the scientific establishment and the so-called "peer-review" process, not to mention their interpretations are enforced by the power of the federal government sword? Just a hunch.

Well apart from your grandiose mischaracterisation of a branching tree of life, that's what the science and evidence indicates, so there's no real delineation between the two then, is there. If you think there is, Prove it. Show why the evidence and observations are wrong.

I have made mention in this thread of scientists who demonstrated the evolution so-called "tree of life" is a fantasy. Perhaps you have not been paying attention, or you arrived late. In either case, check out evolutionist J. Craig Venter, beginning at the 9:35 mark in this video:


The "Bush of Life"? It is in reality more like a lawn, but that is a good start for an evolutionist.

Ironically, it's this very sentiment that attracted the religiously persecuted to the colonies, which in turn helped lead to the separation of the American Colonies from the British... and of course the Constitution that separates Church and State! :D

The constitution was not written to separate "Church and State". That corruption of the constitution was invented by the ACLU and usurped into "law" by a corrupt judiciary in 1947. Up until that time Christianity and the U.S. governments (federal, state and local) got along just fine.

It seems with his line of extreme thinking, it's only a matter of time before these fundies bring on another civil war that'll kill many, many more Americans...

I cannot imagine anything worse than the many hundreds of millions slaughtered by the Christian-hating communists, and their close cousins, the fascists, in the 20th century.

Dan
 
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Job 33:6

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You are not being candid with everyone. I was quoting Kurt Wise, and you know it.



You are correct. It appears I conflated several articles where dinosaurs were both running, and in the same direction, in contrast to some or all of those at Cal Orcko which were simply running.



So? I admit was annoyed by your silly distractions.



What you fail to understand is I really don't care about the "trees", but the "forest". Until you can resolve how the sediment layers were deposited, and how the fossil record was formed, all these little "gotchas" are little more than an annoyance.

Dan

Actually, youre still wrong, not all of the tracks at Cal orcko display evidence of running.

Who is feeding you all this false information?
 
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