(Jews) Why don't Jews believe that Jesus is the Messiah?

[Doctor.Sphinx]

Jews, I'm curious as to why Jews don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah. Could you list all of your reasons for why you deny that Jesus is the Messiah? Who do you think the Messiah will be if it isn't Jesus?

Not all Jews reject Jesus as Messiah. The remnant believe in Him.

 

[LoAmmi]

Not all Jews reject Jesus as Messiah. The remnant believe in Him.

Of course, our answer to that would be that we're the remnant that didn't abandon HaShem to follow a false teaching.

 

[FIRESTORM314]

In Judaism, the Messiah is an all or nothing deal. You either fulfill everything and are obviously without a doubt the Messiah or you do not fulfill everything and are not the Messiah. There is not installment plan for the Messiah in Judaism.

The Jewish people have a long history and very rich heritage and have had a major influence on the world. Some great people have come from your nation. By far the biggest impact on the world has been your religion and that story is still on-going...

I read that on-line article - it was really interesting to see things from your point of view. It certainly give me more insight into your way of seeing things. It left me a lot to ponder.

So pretty much - Jesus did not fulfill all of the Prophecies about the Messiah.

I can also see what you say about Demi-Gods as this certainly prevailed in Greek Culture at the time and was also adopted by the Romans. It was probably far easier for the Gentiles to accept the theology of the Gospel than for Jewish People.


How do you feel about what Paul says in Corinthians

1 Corinthians 1:23
Jews demand signs and Greeks search for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.…

He said the crucifixion was a stumbling block. I guess from what you've just said about the Messiah fulfilling all of the prophecies ( in one go ) then this is what you find hard to accept . He also said that the Jewish People of his day demanded signs but the article on-line said your people do not look for miracles or put that much significance in them. Have things changed ( the idea that people look for Signs ) or do you think Paul is being unfair with that particular statement.

He also goes on to speak about the Greeks ( who I presume are educated and enlightened by Science and Philosophy of th day) that it is foolishness to them.


Even Moses had to persuade the slaves in Egypt that God had sent him by demonstrating the power of God by turning his staff into a snake, putting his hand in his coat and then having it turn white with leprosy and pouring water on to ground and having it turn to blood before they would follow him and accept him as leader.

Q My question to you is What will it take for you to follow and accept The Messiah ( whoever he is ) when he does come?

Neither Moses or King David accomplished their mission by themselves. So how will you recognize the Messiah and help him accomplish those goals other than waiting to see the finished results of all the prophecies?

Do you not have to make your decision in advance of the complete fulfillment of the prophecies?

 

[Eliyahu52]

Not all Jews reject Jesus as Messiah. The remnant believe in Him.

Bs"d

That remark is on the same level as saying: "Not all the Christians reject Mohammed. The remnant believes in him".

What is your proof that he was the messiah?


"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever! "
Mica 4:5

 

[Grace2022]

There is so much to this question. I never realised. Having an open mind and wanting to find out the truth is something very hard to do. I admit to being blinkered by my own experience and faith. I want to find out more.
It surely takes great courage to set off on an honest quest for truth. To really take on board other views. I am not clever or capable, but i want to explore this fundamental difference between Jewish and Christian belief. All discussion must be peaceful and fruitful.

After all, my only fact that i can be certain of is that i have experienced the Holy Spirit and that changed my life. Everything beyond that requires careful measured thought, masses of reading and discussion with others.
I find it all overwhelming actually!

 

[Doctor.Sphinx]

Bs"d

That remark is on the same level as saying: "Not all the Christians reject Mohammed. The remnant believes in him".

What is your proof that he was the messiah?


"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever! "
Mica 4:5

What do you think the first Christians were? Someone raising himself from the dead after 3 days as he promised is pretty good evidence such a one is the Messiah, even for those who reject the Law and the Prophets.

 

[LoAmmi]

What do you think the first Christians were? Someone raising himself from the dead after 3 days as he promised is pretty good evidence such a one is the Messiah, even for those who reject the Law and the Prophets.

I have a few responses. Just because some group of Jews believes something does not lend it any more credibility than if some other group of people believe it. It doesn't matter if the first Christians were Jews. If they were wrong, they were wrong regardless of their ancestry.

I also don't believe Jesus rose from the dead. All we've got for evidence is the four Gospels, written decades after the even and full of things that should have been remarked upon by surrounding people. If a bunch of dead people rose and walked into Jerusalem, I kind of imagine that would be remarked upon by the Romans and Jews. That isn't an event that would just pass people by as if it were just some regular Sunday. Even if he did, though, I don't see why that would make him the Messiah if raising from the dead three days later isn't a prophecy of the Messiah.

 

[drstevej]

LoAmmi, if I could prove to your satisfaction that Jesus is who the gospels say He is, would you put your faith in Him as your Savior and serve Him as your Lord?

 

[LoAmmi]

LoAmmi, if I could prove to your satisfaction that Jesus is who the gospels say He is, would you put your faith in Him as your Savior and serve Him as your Lord?

Yes, but I will warn you that it's a very high bar.

 

[drstevej]

Have you read these?

David was my neighbor years twenty ago. For five years we got together on a weekly basis to discuss the credibility of the claims of Christ. Years later he wrote these books that set forth his conclusions. Both are very good reads and present a compelling case.

Would you be willing to read them?

 

[LoAmmi]

Have you read these?

View attachment 231439 View attachment 231438

David was my neighbor years twenty ago. For five years we got together on a weekly basis to discuss the credibility of the claims of Christ. Years later he wrote these books that set forth his conclusions. Both are very good reads and present a compelling case.

Would you be willing to read them?

I've read similar books, but not those in particular. Agreeing to read two books is a bit much for me right now. I'd normally be willing but I started a Master's degree program and a lot of my time is eaten up reading and writing stuff for that. I come on here for some diversions during the day.

 

[FIRESTORM314]

I have a few responses. Just because some group of Jews believes something does not lend it any more credibility than if some other group of people believe it. It doesn't matter if the first Christians were Jews. If they were wrong, they were wrong regardless of their ancestry.

I also don't believe Jesus rose from the dead. All we've got for evidence is the four Gospels, written decades after the even and full of things that should have been remarked upon by surrounding people. If a bunch of dead people rose and walked into Jerusalem, I kind of imagine that would be remarked upon by the Romans and Jews. That isn't an event that would just pass people by as if it were just some regular Sunday. Even if he did, though, I don't see why that would make him the Messiah if raising from the dead three days later isn't a prophecy of the Messiah.

ISAIAH 53

Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush Him and cause Him to suffer. And when His soul is made a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, and the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand. 11After the anguish of His soul, He will see light of life and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant will justify many, and He will bear their iniquities. 12Therefore I will allot Him a portion with the great, and He will divide the spoils with the strong, because He has poured out His life unto death, and He was numbered among the transgressors. Yet He bore the sin of many and made intercession for the transgressors.…

 

[drstevej]

I've read similar books, but not those in particular. Agreeing to read two books is a bit much for me right now. I'd normally be willing but I started a Master's degree program and a lot of my time is eaten up reading and writing stuff for that. I come on here for some diversions during the day.

I understand. Mark them down for future reference. Good to meet you.

 

[LoAmmi]

ISAIAH 53

Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush Him and cause Him to suffer. And when His soul is made a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, and the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand. 11After the anguish of His soul, He will see light of life and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant will justify many, and He will bear their iniquities. 12Therefore I will allot Him a portion with the great, and He will divide the spoils with the strong, because He has poured out His life unto death, and He was numbered among the transgressors. Yet He bore the sin of many and made intercession for the transgressors.…

Probably the most debated passage between Jews and Christians. Judaism contends that it is speaking about the people of Israel whereas Christians contend it is about the Messiah. It's been debated for 2000 years.

 

[LoAmmi]

I understand. Mark them down for future reference. Good to meet you.

I will.

If you'd like to just discuss stuff here, I'm down for that.

 

[FIRESTORM314]

Probably the most debated passage between Jews and Christians. Judaism contends that it is speaking about the people of Israel whereas Christians contend it is about the Messiah. It's been debated for 2000 years.

Well I suppose there's more than one way of looking at it - we all see it fit the picture in our minds.

Even among Christians there is much debate over various parts of the scripture so it's not surprising there will be major differences of interpretation among the different religions.

 

[drstevej]

I will.

If you'd like to just discuss stuff here, I'm down for that.

Probably better in Ask A Chaplain-Private Area. That way we do not get sidetracked by the audience.

 

[makeajoyfulnoise100]

I have a question. So, since one of the requirements of being the Mashiach is to have military prowess as I understand it, do correct me if I'm wrong, and throughout the Gospels Yeshua speaks of peace and not war. He wasn't a conquer like David, however, Kefa (Peter) did have that mindset. Going up against Rome at that time would have been strategically dumb. Boudica held off Caesar for ten years and after that no one knows what happened to her. Most likely she was killed or enslaved. And that was with the intention of protecting her homeland rather than conquering for it. The Gauls (basically various Viking tribes) had their conquering intentions but didn't execute that until many years later.

So, given the circumstances, would not martyrdom and allowing Kefa's life be spared (knowing exactly how he was) is that not a show of military strategy? "To fight and conquer all your battles is not supreme excellence, supreme excellence is to break your enemies resistance without fighting." ~ Sun Tzu's Art of War.

From a lot of Orthodox Jews I've known they mention that Yeshua didn't have any military prowess. However, my question is, how did he not?

Roman soldiers were treated and acted (in many ways) like wolves. There's a lot of evidences of this if you ever read about Rome. The best and most popular is the series The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire. Makes me wonder when Yeshua asked Kefa to protect His sheep, maybe that meant Israel as a whole against Rome.

 

[Eliyahu52]

So you believe that the Messiah will accomplish ALL of the prophecies? Because, Jesus fulfilled many of the prophecies of the coming Messiah. The rest of the prophecies will be fulfilled at his second coming.

For example I'll post a few of the main ones he fulfilled

Isaiah 7:14

"Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel."

(Jesus was born from the Virgin Mary)

Bs"d

There is no "virgin birth" in the Tanach. For the finer details look here: Isaiah7 - MountZion

Micah 5:2

"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."

(Jesus was born in Bethlehem)

The messianic prophecy of Micah 5 is not yet fulfilled:

Micha 5:2-9; "But thou Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for NOW shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders. And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men. And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off."

Here we have very clearly physical redemption from earthly enemies: "And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword", "Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off." These are very clear verses that can not be misinterpreted; when the messiah comes the Jewish enemies are going to be slaughtered. And the one coming forth from Bethlehem is to be a ruler in Israel, that is a king, or maybe nowadays a president, but not a wandering preacher and miracle healer. (quote from this page: Bs"d - MountZion )

Isaiah 53:5

"But he was pierced for our rebellion, crushed for our sins. He was beaten so we could be whole. He was whipped so we could be healed."

(Jesus was whipped, beaten and finally pierced by a wooden spear before and after his Crucifixion)

Isaiah 53 is not a messianic prophecy, it has nothing to do with the messiah.

For the finer details look here: Isaiah53 - MountZion

Psalm 69:21

They put gall in my food and gave me vinegar for my thirst.

(Jesus was given vinegar to drink during his crucifixion)

From this page: 324x0 - MountZion

Psa. 69:4...Hated without a cause...Jn. 15:25
Psa. 69:8...A stranger to own brethren...Lu. 8;20,21
Psa. 69:9...Zealous for the Lord's House...Jn. 2:17
Psa. 69:14-20...Messiah's anguish of soul before crucifixion...Mt. 26:36-45
Psa. 69:20..."My soul is exceeding sorrowful."...Mt. 26:38
Psa. 69:21...Given vinegar in thirst...Mt. 27:34
Psa. 69:26...The Saviour given and smitten by God...Jn. 17:4; 18:11

Here we have Psalm 69, good for seven "messianic prophecies".

Let's now look at Psalm 69 inside: "Those who hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head; They are mighty who would destroy me, being my enemies wrongfully; though I have stolen nothing, I still must restore it. O God, You know my foolishness; and my sins are not hidden from You." Verse 4 and 5.

Here we see that this speaks about a person with "foolishness" and sins. And since JC was without sins according to the Christians, it is impossible to say that this speaks about JC. It speaks of course about king David. So again, what the Christians do is they take a piece of text, doesn't matter what it is talking about, rip it out of context, and present it to us as a messianic prophecy.

As everybody can see by now, this is not “324 messianic prophecies fulfilled by JC”, this is “324 lies of the Baptists”. And according to their homepage, it is for them a divine commandment to reach out to the Jewish people and shove these lies down their throat, until they accept upon themselves a few extra gods and/or a God forsaken, extra-Biblical “trinity”, that flies right in the face of what God wrote in the Torah: Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!” Deuteronomy 6:4

Jeremiah 31:15


This is what the LORD says: "A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more."

(King Herod when he attempted to kill Jesus massacred all of the children)

From this page: NT prophecies - MountZion

Matt 2:16-18 “Then Herod, when he saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, was in a furious rage, and he sent and killed all the male children in Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years old or under, according to the time which he had ascertained from the wise men. Then was fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet Jeremiah: “A voice was heard in Ramah, wailing and loud lamentation, Rachel weeping for her children; she refused to be consoled, because they were no more."”
Here the NT claims that Jeremiah 31:15 speaks about a slaughter of children, taking place in the days of the messiah.

And now read what is really happening there: Jeremiah 31: “10 "Hear the word of the LORD, O nations, and declare it in the coastlands afar off; say, 'He who scattered Israel will gather him, and will keep him as a shepherd keeps his flock.' 11 For the LORD has ransomed Jacob, and has redeemed him from hands too strong for him. 12 They shall come and sing aloud on the height of Zion, and they shall be radiant over the goodness of the LORD, over the grain, the wine, and the oil, and over the young of the flock and the herd; their life shall be like a watered garden, and they shall languish no more. 13 Then shall the maidens rejoice in the dance, and the young men and the old shall be merry. I will turn their mourning into joy, I will comfort them, and give them gladness for sorrow. 14 I will feast the soul of the priests with abundance, and my people shall be satisfied with my goodness, says the LORD." 15 Thus says the LORD: "A voice is heard in Ramah, lamentation and bitter weeping. Rachel is weeping for her children; she refuses to be comforted for her children, because they are not." 16 Thus says the LORD: "Keep your voice from weeping, and your eyes from tears; for your work shall be rewarded, says the LORD, and they shall come back from the land of the enemy. 17 There is hope for your future, says the LORD, and your children shall come back to their own country.”

As everyone can see, this speaks about Israel which went into exile, and of whom God says that they will return from the exile back to the land of Israel.

Another text which has no bearing on the slaughter of children in the days of messiah which is ripped out of context by the NT and is presented to us as a “messianic prophecy”.

Read here why the messiah didn't come yet: Bs"d - MountZion

 

[Doctor.Sphinx]

I have a few responses. Just because some group of Jews believes something does not lend it any more credibility than if some other group of people believe it. It doesn't matter if the first Christians were Jews. If they were wrong, they were wrong regardless of their ancestry.

Actually, it does matter, as the fact logically refutes the question in the original post. Some Jews *do* believe Jesus is Messiah, therefore, it should never be assumed that all Jews do not. Indeed, the true Jew recognises the true Messiah.

I also don't believe Jesus rose from the dead. All we've got for evidence is the four Gospels, written decades after the even and full of things that should have been remarked upon by surrounding people. If a bunch of dead people rose and walked into Jerusalem, I kind of imagine that would be remarked upon by the Romans and Jews. That isn't an event that would just pass people by as if it were just some regular Sunday. Even if he did, though, I don't see why that would make him the Messiah if raising from the dead three days later isn't a prophecy of the Messiah.

The evidence is there. You're without excuse. As Jesus said to the rich man about his brothers so they would not come to endure the terrible agonies of hell, even if someone were to rise from the dead, they would not believe.