Is Slavery Moral?

[cvanwey]

Your moderns won't tell you that because they and you are not interested in the facts. Only in promoting your prejudices.
The inspiration for Exod 18 was a polytheistic pagan priest, not God. So again it depends on the verse.

"My moderns?" Like I stated, I do not appeal to authority, majority, or when something was written (past or present). I appeal to evidence. I do not care actually who wrote what. However, the evidence is lacking severely, for any claims of an Exodus. If no evidence supports Jews in this region, how might one go about providing 'evidence'??????

That is blind faith. Not faith.

The evidence is scripture itself. Testimony. That is evidence. Also nothing which refutes. If you don't believe they were there then it is up to you to produce contrary evidence to support your position. You have not met that burden.

Your blind faith is in the moderns who are feeding you lies and you are swallowing them up.

One can only come to one of three conclusions...

1) You are deliberately ignoring or not actually reading my responses.
2) You do not understand my responses (most likely because you are not actually reading them).
3) You are assuming I blindly believe things as easily as you might.

Again, how might one provide evidence of absence???? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

 

[cvanwey]

Since when did appropriate texual criticism become intellectual dishonesty. You throw that word around a lot you know, I have even seen you include it in the title of strawman polemics.

1. How many times does it need to be said to you that humans wrote the Bible...10x? 20x? We are at 10 now so how many does it take for you to retain that info?
2/3. Sure people can misread a text and make faulty conclusions based on anachronism. This thread is an exhibit of that.
4. That has yet to be given an exegesis.

I'm glad to see the complete collapse of presenting your OP through your use of complaints instead. Progress is good, and I will be here for your next polemic. But what if instead of wasting your time launching these failed polemics, we talk about what Christianity meant to you and why you left it. What if we utilized this incredible resource to have an actual discussion regarding the truth? Does that interest you, or will you only utilize this resource for launching polemics?

If you want to start a new thread, be my guest. And yes, I'm already aware you stated in the past that humans wrote the Bible.

And as I stated many times now.. I prayed for 30 years with no response. I'm not sure why you do not accept that? This is my main reason I'm now skeptical. Along with the fact that when I started to actually research such claims, many fall flat, in relation to avl. evidence.

But you are also under the assumption it is inspired by 'above'. If you are now stating this is not the case, then I have some very pertinent questions to ask in follow up.

So please keep using 'polemic' if you so desire. It has no relevancy to anything worth talking about, in context to why slavery is mentioned in the Bible.

And you again deliberately avoided all congruent observations and insights....

And for you to use the word 'anachronism' would be more artfully characterized instead as 'rationalization'.

 

[Phil 1:21]

I don't have to prove Moses existed to end this polemic, I can just point my comments to the textual author. And your "proof" demand for such things is just embarrassing your understanding of epistemology.

Reminds me of time an atheist friend of mine asked why if God was real he didn't just reveal himself. I replied, "You mean like if He came to earth in human form, healed the lame and blind, raised the dead, died only to resurrect Himself, hung around for a bit, and then ascended back in heaven?" <crickets>

To some people requesting "proof" none will ever suffice. (John 12:39-40)

 

[cvanwey]

Reminds me of time an atheist friend of mine asked why if God was real he didn't just reveal himself. I replied, "You mean like if He came to earth in human form, healed the lame and blind, raised the dead, died only to resurrect Himself, hung around for a bit, and then ascended back in heaven?" <crickets>

To some people requesting "proof" none will ever suffice. (John 12:39-40)

Typical demonstration of a 'straw man apologist answer' right there...

Though out of context to the OP, I will engage slightly... Since 'straw manning' is one of my pet peeves.

Here are terms which may serve as interest to you... 'Oral tradition' and 'hearsay'. Maybe also lookup the definition of 'eyewitness', and then compare 'hearsay' and 'eyewitness' to such verses as say.... Matthew 27:52 or 1 Corinthians 15:6 (which are two of some of the largest claimed accounts for 'witnessing' supernatural events).

Okay, back to slavery....

So is it moral?

 

[Sanoy]

If you want to start a new thread, be my guest. And yes, I'm already aware you stated in the past that humans wrote the Bible.

And as I stated many times now.. I prayed for 30 years with no response. I'm not sure why you do not accept that? This is my main reason I'm now skeptical. Along with the fact that when I started to actually research such claims, many fall flat, in relation to avl. evidence.

But you are also under the assumption it is inspired by 'above'. If you are now stating this is not the case, then I have some very pertinent questions to ask in follow up.

So please keep using 'polemic' if you so desire. It has no relevancy to anything worth talking about, in context to why slavery is mentioned in the Bible.

And you again deliberately avoided all congruent observations and insights....

And for you to use the word 'anachronism' would be more artfully characterized instead as 'rationalization'.

The purpose of such a discussion is not to call you out. I don't make callout posts. You would have to make the thread if you are willing to open up, or we can talk about it through PM. I am not familiar with the story, so I missed whatever you have already said on it. You carry an anger toward God that burns through every word you type, it's visible and why I have pursued this particular discourse. I have prayed for things every day that took years to be answered, and I have been miraculously healed by a single group prayer. Daniel had the answer to his prayer held captive for 21 days by fallen angels ( Daniel 10:13). Hezekiah was healed, and through the extension of his life the seeds of captivity were sown. There is a lot to talk about, and we can do that if you want, because I assure you Christ loves you very much. And so does every Christian here.

 

[cvanwey]

The purpose of such a discussion is not to call you out. I don't make callout posts. You would have to make the thread if you are willing to open up, or we can talk about it through PM. I am not familiar with the story, so I missed whatever you have already said on it. You carry an anger over God that burns through your words. I have prayed for things every day that took years to be answered, and I have been miraculously healed by a single group prayer. Daniel had the answer to his prayer held captive for 21 days by fallen angels ( Daniel 10:13). Hezekiah was healed, and through the extension of his life the seeds of captivity were sown. There is a lot to talk about, and we can do that if you want, because I assure you Christ loves you very much. And so does every Christian here.

I thank you for the sincerity. And I mean no disrespect towards you (as I'm fully aware you believe in Christianity). However, the only anger I harbor, is the dishonesty of some of the posts. I am not calling you a liar. I'm stating that people strive to justify their beliefs, by whatever means necessary. If you want to know what I see in your posts...? It is avoidance to such observations. Admitting these verses, or even the entire Bible, was not inspired by divinity, does not then conclude God does not exist. However, I sense a slight cognitive dissonance, in an attempt to protect your sacred belief structure. This is what fuels such a 'polemic' from myself

So I call a truce.... We must agree to disagree..... We can continue to converse. However, we will most likely both remain steadfast in our perspective positions. We can continue to battle in this thread, or elsewhere. However, I harbor no personal animosity towards you, and your intellect. You might be 'smarter' than me, and maybe not.?.? However, I have no choice but to follow the evidence where it leads 'me'. This is the only honest conclusion I can draw.

If you truly wish to know more about me, please read from the following:

The Atheist path; a path of liberation or of necessity?

Post 43 and 44

Peace!

 

[Phil 1:21]

Typical demonstration of a 'straw man apologist answer' right there...

Just relating a story. If the shoe doesnt fit, feel free not to try it on.

Though out of context to the OP, I will engage slightly... Since 'straw manning' is one of my pet peeves.

...and hobbies.

Here are terms which may serve as interest to you... 'Oral tradition' and 'hearsay'. Maybe also lookup the definition of 'eyewitness', and then compare 'hearsay' and 'eyewitness' to such verses as say.... Matthew 27:52 or 1 Corinthians 15:6 (which are two of some of the largest claimed accounts for 'witnessing' supernatural events).

Oh, thank you. I've never heard those terms before. <insert eye roll here>

Okay, back to slavery....

So is it moral?

Do you believe in objective morality?

 

[cvanwey]

Do you believe in objective morality?

Nope.... Asking for your honest opinion though, if you are not afraid to provide as such.... Because the only way [you] can currently 'prove' 'objective morality', is by appealing to circular reasoning.

So is slavery moral (yes or no)?

 

[Sanoy]

I'm stating that people strive to justify their beliefs, by whatever means necessary.

"I'm stating that people strive to justify their beliefs, by whatever means necessary." Is this not exemplified in the request for proof?

 

[Phil 1:21]

Nope....

So in your worldview nothing is right or wrong on it's face? Right or wrong (moral or immoral) is simply a matter of individual opinion? Would that be a fair assessment?

You see, I cannot answer your question without first knowing how you define "moral."

 

[cvanwey]

"I'm stating that people strive to justify their beliefs, by whatever means necessary." Is this not exemplified in the request for proof?

I'm not quite sure the context of this reply...? So I ask for slight clarification...?

I will reiterate my main objective, from the OP, in the mean time....

When I ask 'is slavery moral?', I'm asking how Christians can justify such verses. Many Christians possess the notion that inherent moral values are instilled from God. Meaning, people inherently 'know' 'right' from 'wrong', regardless of whether we actually decide to follow such 'knowings'.

But if this is the case, then why do most disagree with slavery wholeheartedly? Even back in the day, anyone who was enslaved would think it was 'wrong.' This does not morally align with God's inherent character.

A crude way to present such a scenario, would be presenting 'the veil of ignorance.' Though this method has flaws, it still somewhat drives the point...

 

[cvanwey]

So in your worldview nothing is right or wrong on it's face? Right or wrong (moral or immoral) is simply a matter of individual opinion? Would that be a fair assessment?

You see, I cannot answer your question without first knowing how you define "moral."

I'm honest in my definition, So don't play games after I give you my definition ;-)

Morality is defined by the ability to distinguish between right and wrong. However, 'right' and 'wrong' are subjective terms as well. So to place the word 'objective' in front of morality pretty much becomes a non sequitur.

I'm not asking you a trick question. Is slavery moral or not, from your perspective? I say it's immoral, from my admitted subjective opinion. I could give you reasons why, but you most likely do not care, or would dispute it.

Now you... Moral or immoral?

My point is to demonstrate that the human moral compass does not appear to align with a claimed 'good' God's moral character. Meaning, if many humans disapprove of slavery, then the notion that humans are built with instilled morals from God becomes a suspect notion... Why? Because God condones slavery, while most humans oppose it...

 

[Phil 1:21]

I'm honest in my definition, So don't play games after I give you my definition ;-)

Morality is defined by the ability to distinguish between right and wrong. However, 'right' and 'wrong' are subjective terms as well. So to place the word 'objective' in front of morality pretty much becomes a non sequitur.

Okay, we're making progress here. So you believe right and wrong are merely personal opinions (subjective). So it is correct to say your worldview is that nothing is right or wrong on it's face, only insomuch as someone forms an opinion one way or the other. So at best you can only say that you feel slavery is immoral. Which, of course, isn't the same as saying it's actually immoral. (we can test this later).

So let's delve further. Upon what do you base your opinions of right and wrong? (we're making progress here)

 

[Sanoy]

I'm not quite sure the context of this reply...? So I ask for slight clarification...?

I will reiterate my main objective, from the OP, in the mean time....

When I ask 'is slavery moral?', I'm asking how Christians can justify such verses. Many Christians possess the notion that inherent moral values are instilled from God. Meaning, people inherently 'know' 'right' from 'wrong', regardless of whether we actually decide to follow such 'knowings'.

But if this is the case, then why do most disagree with slavery wholeheartedly? Even back in the day, anyone who was enslaved would think it was 'wrong.' This does not morally align with God's inherent character.

A crude way to present such a scenario, would be presenting 'the veil of ignorance.' Though this method has flaws, it still somewhat drives the point...

Have you truly forgotten the amount of things you have demanded proof for. Do you remember asking people to prove the existence of Moses, or prove God inspired the Bible? When you say "people strive to justify their beliefs, by whatever means necessary" I am immediately reminded about those instances.

 

[cvanwey]

Have you truly forgotten the amount of things you have demanded proof for. Do you remember asking people to prove the existence of Moses, or prove God inspired the Bible? When you say "people strive to justify their beliefs, by whatever means necessary" I am immediately reminded about those instances.

I remember receiving some fairly acrobatic answers, in regards to claims of 'inspiration'. If you choose not to fulfill your assertion (or burden of proof), then that's fine. Asserting it is just so, is not sufficient, any more than a Muslim or a Hindu blankly justifying theirs...

 

[cvanwey]

Okay, we're making progress here. So you believe right and wrong are merely personal opinions (subjective). So it is correct to say your worldview is that nothing is right or wrong on it's face, only insomuch as someone forms an opinion one way or the other. So at best you can only say that you feel slavery is immoral. Which, of course, isn't the same as saying it's actually immoral. (we can test this later).

So let's delve further. Upon what do you base your opinions of right and wrong? (we're making progress here)

Please stop playing games and answer the question...

 

[Phil 1:21]

Please stop playing games and answer the question...

Trust me, we're actually making progress here. So back on track...

Upon what do you base your opinions of right and wrong?

 

[cvanwey]

Trust me, we're actually making progress here. So back on track...

Upon what do you base your opinions of right and wrong?

You are funny... It's almost as if you think you are going to 'school' me... I can't wait...

Spoiler alert. Your conclusion is circular...

So please answer the question, and justify your reason. Is slavery moral?

 

[Phil 1:21]

You are funny... It's almost as if you think you are going to 'school' me... I can't wait...

Spoiler alert. Your conclusion is circular...

So please answer the question, and justify your reason. Is slavery moral?

I'm not trying to "school" you. Rather, I'm trying to understand how you define the term you are asking me to make a statement regarding. And we're so close. In post #592 you said you could articulate it, at least as it pertains to the issue of slavery. So then...

Upon what do you base your opinions of right and wrong?

 

[cvanwey]

I'm not trying to "school" you. Rather, I'm trying to understand how you define the term you are asking me to make a statement regarding. And we're so close. In post #592 you said you could articulate it, at least as it pertains to the issue of slavery. So then...

Upon what do you base your opinions of right and wrong?

This was my point from that post:

'My point is to demonstrate that the human moral compass does not appear to align with a claimed 'good' God's moral character. Meaning, if many humans disapprove of slavery, then the notion that humans are built with instilled morals from God becomes a suspect notion... Why? Because God condones slavery, while most humans oppose it...'