Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

[1stcenturylady]

Yes, because we are in union with Christ and His righteousness has been imputed to us.

You seem to believe that "imputed" means that Christ's righteousness is like an invisibility cloak that covers our sin while we keep committing them. No, friend, not just cover, but TAKE AWAY. 1 John 3:5.

Sorry for all your wasted time. And you weren't designed to control the lusts of your heart. That's why we have Gal 5:16.

(If you are not going to write out the scripture, please don't abbreviate the text address so we can't scan it.)

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

This is true. I did not have the Spirit, and was only in my carnal nature which was STRONG. This is how we can test ourselves to see if we are His or not. Is the desire to sin still strong as a non-believer? Then that's what we are.

If you would like to hear my testimony of what happened that gave me God's power, just ask and I'll post if for everyone, or just you if you desire.

 

[1stcenturylady]

And your views about the Holy Spirit are quite odd. Who are your teachers?

Since I was baptized in the Holy Spirit in 1977 and received such power over sin, and been given such strong gifts, I have been able to see the scripture in a whole new light. But, I was in a severe minority. No one else saw this, but believed as you do, and as I used to.

I am now a teacher of this, though I have stood alone for years. Recently a missionary friend, who sees as you do, told me of someone else who teaches many of the things I teach. So I read some of Leroy Surface, of Calvary Outreach Ministries free pamphlets and books.

cochurch.org

Like me, he only taught what God showed him directly. They are the same as what God showed me.

I'm also publishing my own books.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I was wondering how you justified any sin you commit.
The Pharisees did much the same thing passing off what they did as sin.

Do you mean "not sin"? The baptism of the Holy Spirit has given me an overly sensitive conscience and it is easy to not do the things that would cause guilt.

1 John 3
18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

But, that doesn't mean I haven't sinned in 41 years I'm sorry to say, and am still paying the price. In 1981 God told me how long I would have to wait for Him to be able to send "the rain." 10 years. I understood that to mean a husband, as that was the subject of what we were talking about. But at 9 years I didn't want to wait any longer, and though God was telling me not to marry him, I married a psychopath. 13 years later of heinous abuse, he had an affair with the wife of his best friend, and caused two divorces, marrying his mistress.

I learned strict obedience to God, and will not disobey God again. The price is too dear. My ex is still the last man I kissed. God doesn't allow remarriage when two Christians divorce, so here I am alone.

Acts 1:8 says different. The evidence of being filled with the Spirit is that we receive power to witness.

Yes, Jesus preached, but He was also sinless. His Spirit gives us such power that Jesus says, "who the Son frees, is free indeed."

Not preparing your heart is a willful sin. There are no excuses for any sins.
We are to be perfect just as our Heavenly Father is perfect.

There is an excuse for sin. It is being an unbeliever without Christ's Spirit. But I do agree that Jesus commanded us to be perfect, just as our Heavenly Father is perfect.

After David repented he gave into Satan's urging and counted the people and 70000 people died.
Even in judgment God had mercy on David.

Yes, God has had mercy on me to, and has been my Husband. The miracles I've received are awesome. And we have such a relationship that He answers all my prayers, because I only pray His will that He tells me first. (1 John 3:22 and 1 John 5:14-15)

Doug, I've seen that many times in the past we agree, but I guess not on everything.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No, I have not read who your favorite writers are, and have not followed your posts.

Well, why have you been responding to my posts? If you plan to respond, please at least read before posting.

All you've said that I've read is "the Bible" which you don't understand.

As if you do. lol. You have no idea what you've been talking about.

What I want to know is WHY you don't understand.

I understand perfectly. But I'm wondering why you don't believe what Jesus said about eternal security in John 10:28. It is so clear. Why don't you understand that?

I really want to help you and anyone else who doesn't know that God requires holiness, and will not be mocked.

Of course He does. I never even suggested otherwise.

So, please, what is your background. I want to see their writings or sermons, maybe on youtube.

How about reading Romans carefully. And all the epistles carefully. My views were learned from them.

What teachers have influenced your views?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
First, let's read the verse.
"If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth."

Yes. Yes, believers can be out of fellowship and lie, sadly. And they sure don't live out the truth.

Here are 4 commands from Paul. Identify which verses speak of being in fellowship and which verses speak of being out of fellowship.

1. Eph 5:18 be filled with the Spirit
2. Gal 5:16 walk by the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh
3. Eph 4:30 stop grieving the Spirit, by which you are sealed for the day of redemption
4. 1 Thess 5:19 stop quenching the Spirit.

You may not be aware of the Semitic styles of writing.

What in the world does any of this have to do with what I posted and you quoted?

I asked a very simple task of you. Of the 4 commands, which one or ones are about being IN fellowship and which one or ones are about being OUT of fellowship?

Or do you not have any idea what I'm talking about about "fellowship"?

Let me show you some examples.
One is called "doubling." This is saying the same thing twice for clarification.

Acts 4:33
And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.

Therefore, from this verse we know that God's grace to a believer is His Own power.

Wrong again. The believer's "own power" is nothing other than one's will power, and associated with their sinful nature. Good luck with that.

Acts 4:33 is a clear reference to the power of the Holy Spirit in them. Remember, by Acts 4 the apostles had been given the Holy Spirit. They weren't powering themselves, as you erroneously opine.

This is why a Christian is dead to sin (not just from the punishment of sin as you've been taught and believe.)

Again, you have no idea. Being "dead to sin" is about being dead to the penalty of sin, whether you understand that or not.

We are no longer in the flesh, but in the Spirit, and such are no longer victim to the draw of sin.

The contrast of being "in the Spirit" and "in the flesh" is about being saved vs unsaved.

And as long as we live in our bodies of corruption, we ARE victims to the draw of sin. It's utterly naive to claim otherwise.

And those who walk in the Spirit are not under the law, because through the Spirit, the righteous requirements of the law are fulfilled. (Romans 8:1-9)

Right. And this in no way helps your argument.

Again, the scripture you are quoting is for a true Christian. Hitler couldn't rightly apply it to himself even though he was Catholic.

Another totally irrelevant comment. I asked which of the 4 commands that Paul gave are about being IN fellowship and which are about being OUT of fellowship.

It appears you have no idea what I'm talking about. Sad.

Mathew 7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Do you even understand this exchange? Probably not.

In v.22, "that day" refers to the final judgment day, where "every knee will bow". And this crowd are appealing to Jesus based on their works for entering the kingdom. And notice that they even did these great things in His name. Yet, what did Jesus tell them? "I NEVER knew you". We know He is God and therefore omniscient, so He wasn't telling them He was never aware of them.

No, He was telling them, in essence, that because they never believed in Him for salvation, He never knew them intimately, as He does believers, in the family of God.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Yes, because we are in union with Christ and His righteousness has been imputed to us.

You seem to believe that "imputed" means that Christ's righteousness is like an invisibility cloak that covers our sin while we keep committing them.

You seem to misunderstand pretty much everything I post, along with all the Scripture you cite or quote, which do not support any of your claims.

No, friend, not just cover, but TAKE AWAY. 1 John 3:5.

It is clear to me that you have no idea what imputation even means. Sad.

The meaning of "imputation" is that of crediting. Some examples:

Rom 4:11 - And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.

Rom 4:22-24
22 This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.”
23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone,
24but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

iow, God credits righteousness to those who believe in His Son.

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

This is true. I did not have the Spirit, and was only in my carnal nature which was STRONG.

If you did not have the Spirit, then you were not even saved then.

This is how we can test ourselves to see if we are His or not. Is the desire to sin still strong as a non-believer? Then that's what we are.

I see no evidence to support your claim here.

If you would like to hear my testimony of what happened that gave me God's power, just ask and I'll post if for everyone, or just you if you desire.

You already gave it, and I thoroughly disagree with it. Believers receive the Holy Spirit WHEN they believe, according to Eph 1:13,14.

And receiving the Holy Spirit IS the baptism with the Spirit. Gal 3:2,5 prove it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"And your views about the Holy Spirit are quite odd. Who are your teachers?"

Since I was baptized in the Holy Spirit in 1977 and received such power over sin, and been given such strong gifts, I have been able to see the scripture in a whole new light. But, I was in a severe minority. No one else saw this, but believed as you do, and as I used to.

Yet you haven't given ANY Scripture that supports your beliefs.

I am now a teacher of this, though I have stood alone for years.

That could be a clue. When one stands totally alone, there's always a reason.

Recently a missionary friend, who sees as you do, told me of someone else who teaches many of the things I teach.

Sad to hear.

So I read some of Leroy Surface, of Calvary Outreach Ministries free pamphlets and books.

cochurch.org

Like me, he only taught what God showed him directly.

Aha. Now we see the light. Direct communication from God is ALWAYS a clue of a false teacher. Always. Everything God wants the human race to know is in the Bible.

Direct communication went away when the Bible was complete.

They are the same as what God showed me.

2 peas in a pod.

 

[Doug Melven]

Yes, Jesus preached, but He was also sinless. His Spirit gives us such power that Jesus says, "who the Son frees, is free indeed."

For the first 30 years of Jesus' life on Earth He was sinless without the Spirit coming on Him.
Then He was baptized by John undergoing the baptism of repentance. Up till this time Jesus had kept the law perfectly in His own power, but He did not perform any miracles.
After undergoing the baptism of repentance He received the Spirit and began His public ministry by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Once we are born-again we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:9, Ephesians 1:13-14, 1 Corinthians 6:17-20 John 20:22 And because of this indwelling, we can walk in the Spirit as Galatians 5:16 says.
This is not the same as the Baptism of the Spirit spoken of in Acts 1:8, Ephesians 5:18.
In Acts 8:12 the Samarians believed and were water baptized so we know they were born-again and had the indwelling Holy Spirit according to the verses listed above.
Then Peter and John came, prayed for them and laid hands on them and the Holy Spirit fell upon them.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Well, why have you been responding to my posts? If you plan to respond, please at least read before posting.

LOL There are 129 pages, dude! I'm responding now, but reading all your posts up to here is not my life work.

As if you do. lol. You have no idea what you've been talking about.

Actually, I do, but we should just let God judge between us.

I understand perfectly. But I'm wondering why you don't believe what Jesus said about eternal security in John 10:28. It is so clear. Why don't you understand that?

Read the previous verse. John 10:27. The key is who FOLLOW me. These are obedient and do not sin.

How about reading Romans carefully. And all the epistles carefully. My views were learned from them.

But aren't you the one who believes Romans 7 is describing the Christian journey, rather than the journey of those under the law?

 

[1stcenturylady]

I asked a very simple task of you. Of the 4 commands, which one or ones are about being IN fellowship and which one or ones are about being OUT of fellowship?

1 John 1:6 is about a non-believer.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Wrong again. The believer's "own power" is nothing other than one's will power, and associated with their sinful nature. Good luck with that.

This had nothing to do with will power. ROFL

 

[1stcenturylady]

Acts 4:33 is a clear reference to the power of the Holy Spirit in them. Remember, by Acts 4 the apostles had been given the Holy Spirit. They weren't powering themselves, as you erroneously opine.

They, indeed, were the same people who received the baptism of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2, and received an additional filling, as we can also.

BTW, your sarcasm doesn't help, but only shows lack of the fruit of the Spirit. Maybe that is why you are not understanding my posts, as you respond with obvious unclarity as to what I said.

 

[1stcenturylady]

If you did not have the Spirit, then you were not even saved then.

Exactly! That is what I said.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Yet you haven't given ANY Scripture that supports your beliefs.

Yes, I have.

Romans 6:2
Romans 8:1-9
1 John 3:5-9
1 John 1:7

 

[1stcenturylady]

Aha. Now we see the light. Direct communication from God is ALWAYS a clue of a false teacher. Always. Everything God wants the human race to know is in the Bible.

Direct communication went away when the Bible was complete.

You have a right to your opinion, even to the powerless Cessationist heresy.

But, my prayers are answered 100% of the time. Are yours?

1 John 3:22
22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.

1 John 5:14-15
14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.

John 15:7
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.

 

[1stcenturylady]

In Acts 8:12 the Samarians believed and were water baptized so we know they were born-again and had the indwelling Holy Spirit according to the verses listed above.
Then Peter and John came, prayed for them and laid hands on them and the Holy Spirit fell upon them.

I disagree.* They DID NOT have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

*But, I would say this is a hard example to understand. Some say it is because the Spirit had only fallen on Jews. Now here on Samaritans. And later on Gentiles (Cornelius). And I agree, there are more than one fillings.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Aha. Now we see the light. Direct communication from God is ALWAYS a clue of a false teacher. Always. Everything God wants the human race to know is in the Bible.

Direct communication went away when the Bible was complete.

Many will fall away in the last days due to apostacy. This is the church age of Laodecia, the lukewarm fellowship of unbelievers.

James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

What I teach is the original doctrine of the apostles, not the watered down version of the apostates. I suggest you ask God, and be open to what He reveals.

 

[Bible2+]

Blood Bought 1953 said in post #2527:

. . . we are not saved by obedience or works.

We will be, ultimately (Hebrews 5:9, Romans 2:6-8).

Blood Bought 1953 said in post #2527:

These two items will follow salvation as night follows day . . .

Not necessarily (Matthew 25:26,30).

Blood Bought 1953 said in post #2527:

Faith plus nothing for salvation.

Faith plus works for ultimate salvation (James 2:24).

 

[Bible2+]

FreeGrace2 said in post #2532:

And what you claim is in DIRECT OPPOSITION to what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life in John 10:28.

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand".

John 10:28-29 means that Christians will never spiritually perish so long as they remain in God's hand, and that no one outside of a Christian can ever take him or her out of God's hand. But John 10:28-29 does not mean that Christians are imprisoned in God's hand, that they cannot wrongly employ their free will to jump out of God's hand themselves, such as by committing apostasy, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12). Also, John 10:28-29 is not contradicting that God Himself can in the end cast Christians out of His hand, that they can in the end lose their salvation, if they do not continue in His goodness (Romans 11:20-22), such as by wrongly employing their free will to commit a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or by becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).

Also, John 10:28-29 does not mean that a Christian's will is kept in God's hand in the sense that a Christian cannot wrongly employ his will to the ultimate loss of his salvation. For any such "kept" will would be nothing but a destroyed will. It would make Christians like someone who has been lobotomized, strait-jacketed, drugged, and locked up in a cell. Thank God that He does not do that to Christians, but leaves them as free people with free will. And because He does, they themselves have to choose each and every day for the rest of their lives to deny themselves, to take up their crosses themselves, and to continue to follow Jesus Christ (Luke 9:23) to the end. And the Bible gives no assurance that every Christian will choose to do that (Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:2a).

*******

FreeGrace2 said in post #2533:

What is clear from these verses is that the indwelling Holy Spirit is a seal or mark which identifies the one having believed as a possession of God, and He is the GUARANTEE of our inheritance until the day of redemption.

There is no "guarantee", because of free will (Luke 13:3).

*******

FreeGrace2 said in post #2534:

This means dead to sin's penalty. John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 5:24 refers to salvation in the sense of Christians' present, spiritual salvation, instead of the still-future, ultimate redemption of their physical bodies (Romans 8:23-25). John 5:24 means that a Christian will not ultimately come into condemnation, as in an ultimate loss of salvation, so long as he continues to the end to believe (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23, John 15:6), to perform good works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, John 15:2a), and to repent from every sin that he commits (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46; 1 Corinthians 9:27). All Christians will be judged (2 Corinthians 5:10).

Some Christians, at the judgment of the Church by Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30), at His future, Second Coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), or unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That is why Christians know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the Church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as non-Christians if they do not continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

*******

FreeGrace2 said in post #2556:

Rom 8:1 - Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

Romans 8:1 ¶There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

In the original Greek Textus Receptus, and in the KJV, the latter half of this verse states the condition for the first half. If the latter half is not done, then the first half does not apply, as other verses also make clear (Romans 8:13; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Hebrews 10:26-29).

*******

FreeGrace2 said in post #2556:

Believers receive the Holy Spirit WHEN they believe, according to Eph 1:13,14.

Not the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Otherwise, Paul would not have asked the question in Acts 19:2a.

Also, His question in Acts 19:2 relates to how Christians are to be water baptized (Matthew 28:19). That is, if the people whom the apostle Paul was speaking to in Acts 19:1-6 had been Christian water-baptized, they would have heard of the Holy Spirit. But they said that they had not heard of the Holy Spirit (Acts 19:2). Therefore, they needed to be Christian water-baptized, as in Acts 19:5.

Also, Christian water-baptism does not automatically impart Holy Spirit baptism. That is why the apostle Paul had to lay his hands on the people in Acts 19:6 for them to receive Holy Spirit baptism, even after they had been Christian water-baptized in Acts 19:5.

Note that this was also the case in Acts 8:15-17. That is, the Samaritan Christians got Christian water-baptized first. And then sometime later they got Holy Spirit baptized, through the laying on of hands.

 

[Bible2+]

Doug Melven said in post #2536:

Works of the flesh mean anything we can do, like dead works. Hebrews 6:1-3

No, for non-dead works that we do will be required for our ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8).

Doug Melven said in post #2536:

[Re: Rom. 6:5]
If you actually read that verse you would see that it is not referring to water baptism.

It is referring to the "burial"/"planting" of water-immersion baptism (Romans 6:4-5).

Doug Melven said in post #2536:

When a person says you strain at a gnat and swallow a camel, it is clearly known that this is an illustration made to make a point.

It's "hyperbole" to make a point, "an exaggerated statement not meant to be taken literally".