Is it moral?

[Occams Barber]

A 20 year western european bubble on planet earth does not change that.

Sorry - you've lost me?
OB

 

[GeorgeJ]

"If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

...and let me add:
"And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell."

I ain't buying it. Seems to me like if Christians really believe what Jesus of Nazareth is saying in those verses, there would be a buttload of one-eyed, one handed folks walking around this earth.

 

[Albion]

So - God did it therefore it is intrinsically moral?

You cannot just brush that fact aside. He created everything and is perfect in all ways. To say that he is immoral because he may not match up with what we humans in our present societies think is moral or immoral isn't a very strong argument when you think about it for more than a moment.

If you or I acted this way would we also be morally correct?
OB

As you phrase the question (my apologies for taking that into consideration) we CANNOT act this way, so the question cannot be answered. We are incapable of torturing anyone for all eternity.

The question still remains: Is eternal torture a reasonable response to all sin?
OB

 

[dmmesdale]

...and let me add:
"And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell."

I ain't buying it. Seems to me like if Christians really believe what Jesus of Nazareth is saying in those verses, there would be a buttload of one-eyed, one handed folks walking around this earth.

You taking it literally? No surprise there, most secular fundies do. It is the words of Jesus, so naturally you would not buy it. Not only that you don't know how to interpret it. Its called hyperbole and you can look it up if so inclined. Here is a hint, self mutilation is not part of Christianity. But then again those who misuse would interpret that way.

 

[Occams Barber]

You cannot just brush that fact aside. He created everything and is perfect in all ways. To say that he is immoral because he may not match up with what we humans in our present societies think is moral or immoral isn't a very strong argument when you think about it for more than a moment.

I'll be honest Albion. I find this sort of response a little frightening. It suggests that you would do whatever you believed God required of you without considering its morality against any standard which you or the broader community may hold.

As you phrase the question (my apologies for taking that into consideration) we CANNOT act this way, so the question cannot be answered. We are incapable of torturing anyone for all eternity.

I'll take that as a 'no'. It wouldn't be moral for you or I to torture eternally (assuming we could).
OB

 

[Albion]

I'll be honest Albion. I find this sort of response a little frightening. It suggests that you would do whatever you believed God required of you without considering its morality against any standard which you or the broader community may hold.

No, that is not what I said. I said two things:

1. God, being God, cannot be held to our human thinking about what is right and wrong for us to do.

and

2. Your question was worded in such a way that it cannot actually be answered. We cannot be torturing anyone ETERNALLY, so asking about US torturing anyone for ETERNITY is useless.

You can say that it is immoral, of course, but it is purely hypothetical and has no real application to our behavior or to God's.

In addition, I never said or insinuated that I approve of torture, so I ask you not to attribute that thinking to me.

 

[Albion]

duplicate

 

[oioimoi]

Guy, but what if your wrong and there is no Magical Torture happening at all?

The same way there are no Academy of Magic, Unicorn and Dragons.

 

[Albion]

Guy, but what if your wrong and there is no Magical Torture happening at all?

The same way there are no Academy of Magic, Unicorn and Dragons.

In that case, you wont have to worry any longer about God torturing people for eternity or being immoral.

 

[Occams Barber]

I said:
It suggests that you would do whatever you believed God required of you without considering its morality against any standard which you or the broader community may hold.
You said:

1. God, being God, cannot be held to our human thinking about what is right and wrong for us to do.

I see these two statements as essentially saying the same thing. Both describe a Divine Command Theory approach to morality.

I have never insinuated that you approved of torture, in fact I suggested the opposite:

I'll take that as a 'no'. It wouldn't be moral for you or I to torture eternally (assuming we could).

My concern was not whether or not you approved of torture but whether you would torture if you believed that God required this of you.
OB

 

[ananda]

It is a very similar concept; of endless suffering.

No, it's not.

 

[Dave-W]

"If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

And if thy brother's right eye offendeth thee, pluck it out ..."

[/sarcasm]

 

[Inkfingers]

No, it's not.

Yes, it is.

Samsara is about being trapped in endless cycle of death and suffering. So is Hell.

 

[Albion]

I said:
It suggests that you would do whatever you believed God required of you without considering its morality against any standard which you or the broader community may hold.
You said:

I see these two statements as essentially saying the same thing. Both describe a Divine Command Theory approach to morality.

I don't think so. Despite the way you worded it, one refers to God's actions while the other refers to our actions. It must be recognized, if only for the purposes of this discussion, that the two are different.

My concern was not whether or not you approved of torture but whether you would torture if you believed that God required this of you.
OB

Why would God require that of me?

How did this discussion even turn that way, since it was no part of the question asked in the OP?

 

[Occams Barber]

I don't think so. Despite the way you worded it, one refers to God's actions while the other refers to our actions. It must be recognized, if only for the purposes of this discussion, that the two are different.


Why would God require that of me?

How did this discussion even turn that way, since it was no part of the question asked in the OP?

It's related but I'm happy to leave it there.

It's midnight where I am and I have things to do in the morning, so I'm going to leave you to the tender mercies of the Interwebs.
OB

 

[GeorgeJ]

You taking it literally? No surprise there, most secular fundies do.

Don't mean to burst your bubble, but I'm not a "secular fundie".

So....you don't take the "gouge out your eye" and "cut off your hand" parts literally, but you do take the mention of hell in those verses literally?

No surprise there, most Christians do. The "difficult" to explain verses are "hyperbole", but the verses about burning in hell forever if you're not a believer in Jesus of Nazareth as the Son of God and Messiah are definitely fact! And if you don't believe it.......you're gonna burn in hell forever......

 

[ananda]

Yes, it is.

Samsara is about being trapped in endless cycle of death and suffering. So is Hell.

No - samsara is about cycles of periods of discontentment and suffering, and other periods of contentment and pleasure. It is not endless, as nibbana - a goal which anyone can strive for - is freedom from samsara.

The traditional Christian hell and lake of fire offers no moments of contentment or pleasure, and no freedom or possibility of escape.

The concepts are not the same at all.

 

[Albion]

No surprise there, most Christians do. The "difficult" to explain verses are "hyperbole", but the verses about burning in hell forever if you're not a believer in Jesus of Nazareth as the Son of God and Messiah are definitely fact! And if you don't believe it.......you're gonna burn in hell forever......

If there were a way of knowing for sure, I would be surprised if the findings showed that "most Christians" actually do take that kind of literal view of hell.

 

[Sanoy]

Baring any logical constraints I don't find it moral. However the Bible does not definitively teach ECT. There are many Christians, like myself, that believe in Annihilation. I find Annhilation to be more strongly evidenced in the Bible but not through simple surface reading. (We have a few theological debates on it already on the fourm, just search Annihilation/ect)

 

[Albion]

Annihilationism is considered to be one characteristic of a cult, by the way, and it is not a belief held by any of the mainline denominations.

When it is said that it is a belief held by "many Christians," that is not exactly giving a correct picture of its acceptance.