Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

[Blood Bought 1953]

It's not me who says the 'the way (path) which leads to life'. It's the Savior Himself. And no one will find that way unless they first enter the narrow gate. How did you get eternal life another way? Are the Savior's words not for you?

I've never said those who have eternal life live a lifestyle of sin. And believe me, no matter who you are, you have not lost the ability to sin.



Sorry, I am not living under a curse, as much as you desire that for me. Jesus said ALL the law and prophets hang on two commandments. Do you know what they are?



Now show me where Jesus' Gospel said anything about what you just wrote. If Paul is your savior, then you have every right to believe every word from his lips. But, if Jesus is your Savior, then you had better heed His words. You had better labor for the meat which endures unto eternal life. Yes, Jesus said to labor.

He also said, if you want to enter eternal life, keep the commandments. As you quoted above, even John says to keep His commandments.

This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,for everyone born of God overcomes the world. 1 John 5:3,4.

So, I guess the question for you is, do you love God? If not, then don't worry about His commandments. Keep living your version of eternal life. I'm sure it's as effective as what Jesus told us...not!

I am amazed how little people today care for what Jesus told us. If what He said agrees with them, then they quote them unceasingly. But if what He said does not agree with them, they walk around blindly, dismissing and rejecting what He said.

Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Do you dismiss and reject these words of truth from Jesus?

If you want to follow Jesus do what He said.Follow Paul. if Paul says it , it’s as good as Jesus saying it.” Follow me as I follow Christ”——words breathed by the Holy Spirit.How do we Follow Paul? Believe Paul’s Gospel 1cor15:1-4 and your salvation is guaranteed—- unless you add to it with works , then you are accursed,damned, you have perverted the Gospel and Christ is no benefit to you.

 

[Bible2+]

bcbsr said in post #2085:

As you say, you're talking about the path to eternal life. You're still on the journey. I've arrived.

Not even the apostle Paul had arrived at ultimate salvation (Philippians 3:11-14).

Also, note Paul's warning in Romans 11:20-22.

bcbsr said in post #2085:

And contrary to your allegations no where have I stated that those who have eternal life live a lifestyle of sin. In fact they have lost the ability to do so, as it is written, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9

1 John 3:9, like 1 John 3:6, 1 John 5:18 and 3 John 1:11b, means that the initial salvation of Christians will be accompanied by them repenting from their sins, and not continuing in them, at least for a while. What these verses do not mean is that Christians lose their free will, and become robots, unable to ever choose, sometime subsequent to their initial salvation and repentance, to commit a sin without ever repenting from it. For other verses show that it is possible for Christians to do this, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46).

Hebrews 10:26-29 shows that Christians, who have been sanctified by Jesus Christ's sacrificial blood (Hebrews 10:29), which sanctification requires faith (Acts 26:18b, cf. Romans 3:25-26), can, after they get saved, wrongly employ their free will to commit sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26). By doing this, these Christians are unwittingly trampling on Jesus and His sacrificial blood, and doing despite unto the Spirit of grace (Hebrews 10:29), turning the grace of God into lasciviousness (Jude 1:4), so that their ultimate fate will be worse than if they had never been saved at all (2 Peter 2:20-22). Even though Jesus' sacrificial blood is sufficient to forgive all sins (1 John 2:2), it actually forgives only the sins of Christians which are past (Romans 3:25-26), as in sins which have been repented from and confessed to God (1 John 1:9,7). Jesus' sacrificial blood does not remit unrepentant sins (Hebrews 10:26-29). So a Christian can ultimately lose his salvation if he wrongly employs his free will to commit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46).

Some Christians say that Hebrews 10:26-29 is not for Christians. But note that the immediate context of Hebrews 10:26-29 is Hebrews 10:25, which is addressing "we" Christians. Hebrews 10:25-29 is the same idea as Hebrews 3:13: Christians need to gather together and exhort each other so that no Christian will fall into any unrepentant sin. For any unrepentant sin will ultimately result in the loss of salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 7:22-23, Galatians 5:19-21; 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13; 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

One way that a Christian could come to desire to commit a sin without repentance would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term) that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he becomes so infatuated with his sin that he can no longer endure the sound doctrine of the Bible (such as the doctrine of Hebrews 10:26-29), but instead latches onto a mistaken, man-made teaching which contradicts the Bible (2 Timothy 4:3-4), such as the mistaken teaching which assures Christians that there is no way that they can ever lose their salvation, even if they commit a sin without repentance.

bcbsr said in post #2085:

And Ephesians 2 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."

But ultimate salvation requires works (Romans 2:6-8).

 

[Bible2+]

FreeGrace2 said in post #2089:

Jesus refutes your claims when He said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish. That ends all discussion.

No, for we must obey Him to receive ultimate salvation (Hebrews 5:9).

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FreeGrace2 said in post #2091:

And you cannot show from John 10:28 ANY conditions for recipients of eternal life to meet in order to not perish.

The conditions are in other verses (Isaiah 28:9-10), just as a condition for the verse in Matthew 4:6 (Psalms 91:12) was in the verse in Matthew 4:7 (Deuteronomy 6:16).

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FreeGrace2 said in post #2095:

Yet, there is NOTHING in 2 Pet 2:20-22 that states that salvation can be lost.

There is. For 2 Peter 2:21 is the same idea as Hebrews 10:26-29.

FreeGrace2 said in post #2095:

Even the most faithful and obedient believer doesn't deserve or earn salvation, so why on earth would the other end of the spectrum of saved people earn or deserve loss of salvation?

Ultimate salvation is based on works (Romans 2:6-8).

FreeGrace2 said in post #2095:

If we're not saved by behavior, then we can't lose our salvation by behavior.

All non-Christians, whether elect or nonelect, are like people who do not even know that they are blind in both eyes. They can neither see any need to believe in Jesus Christ, nor see any need to repent from their sins. But when God miraculously grants elect people His gift of Christian faith (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2), and His miraculous gift of repentance (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18), it is like these people can suddenly see with both eyes.

Repentance and faith in Jesus Christ initially do not involve the will or any works, just as if a blind man who did not even know that he was blind were miraculously given sight by Jesus, both his eyes would miraculously see without his will or his works having to be involved. But miraculously giving a blind man his sight also does not take away his free will. So he can subsequently wrongly employ his free will to blind himself, such as by staring at the sun for too long.

In the same way, once repentance and faith in Jesus Christ are miraculously received by an elect person, he still has the same free will which he had before he got saved. And so he can ultimately lose his salvation if he, sometime subsequent to his initial repentance, wrongly employs his free will to return to doing something like committing a sin without repentance (2 Peter 2:20-22, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

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FreeGrace2 said in post #2101:

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:5 means that Christians are guarded ("kept") by the power of God "through" their faith in Jesus Christ. But the Bible gives no assurance that Christians will choose to continue in the faith to the end, and not at some point wrongly employ their free will to depart from the faith, to commit apostasy (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:3), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

Also, 1 Peter 1:5 refers to the "salvation ready to be revealed in the last time", which is ultimate salvation, as opposed to initial (current) salvation. Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only "if" they continue in the faith to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23).

FreeGrace2 said in post #2101:

Here are 24 verses that speak of the basis for salvation and eternal life.

So please show me which verses add anything more than belief in Christ.

For example, Matthew 7:21.

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FreeGrace2 said in post #2103:

OK, what other conditions are clearly linked to perishing, losing salvation etc.

For example, Luke 13:3.

FreeGrace2 said in post #2103:

Where does the Bible mention anything about being able to jump out of God's hand.

For example, Hebrews 6:4-8.

FreeGrace2 said in post #2103:

If a recipient of eternal life can "jump out" of God's hand, why and HOW can God "cast us out".

For example, Romans 11:20-22.

 

[Bible2+]

Chinchilla said in post #2102:

So when quoting from Matthew or Luke you need to know that gospel for church came with Paul later on . . .

Both Jews and Gentiles are saved by believing the same Gospel (Romans 1:16).

And this Gospel of Jesus Christ includes His suffering and dying for our sins, and His physical resurrection (Matthew 20:18-19, Matthew 20:28, Matthew 26:28).

And this Gospel, which is the same as the apostle Paul's in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, was explained to the apostle Peter (and to the other apostles) directly by Jesus Christ before the time of Peter's preaching in Acts (Luke 24:44-49).

So the apostle Peter's subsequent preaching during the time of Acts would have included this Gospel, just as his writings did (1 Peter 2:24; 1 Peter 3:18).

Just because Acts does not record the apostle Peter preaching this at the time of Acts does not mean that he did not. For Acts is not an exhaustive record of every word which was preached by Peter (or the other apostles) during that period of time.

--

The Gospel of our salvation (Ephesians 1:13) is that we can be initially saved from hell by believing that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ and the human/divine Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36; 1 John 2:23), and that He suffered and died on the Cross for our sins and rose physically from the dead on the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 24:39,46-47, Matthew 20:19, Matthew 26:28).

And the Gospel is that we can be ultimately saved from hell if we continue to believe this to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23), and continue to perform good works of faith to the end (Romans 2:6-8; 1 Thessalonians 1:3), and repent from every sin that we commit (Hebrews 10:26-29), and get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus Christ (Mark 16:16, Romans 6:3-11), and partake of Jesus' divine flesh and blood in the bread and wine of Communion (John 6:53; 1 Corinthians 11:23-30), and forgive everyone for everything (Matthew 6:14-15), and do all that we can (Romans 12:18) to make reparations to, and peace with, everyone whom we have ever wronged (Matthew 5:23-26), and help Christians in need (Matthew 25:34-46), and provide for our families (1 Timothy 5:8), and do not blaspheme God's Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29), and do not remove words from the book of Revelation (Revelation 22:19), and do not worship the future Antichrist, or his image, or willingly receive his mark (Revelation 14:9-12), and continue in God's goodness to the end (Romans 11:22), and overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26).

--

Jesus Christ's Gospel of salvation goes to Jews first (Romans 1:16, Matthew 10:5-6, Matthew 15:24, Acts 3:26), and salvation is of the Jews (John 4:22b), because salvation is of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which God has made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34). Christian Gentiles are grafted into Israel so that they can partake of the salvation offered by God to Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, John 10:16). And all Christians, whether Jews (Acts 22:3) or Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

 

[Bible2+]

justbyfaith said in post #2106:

What of Matthew 5:17-20 . . .

Matthew 5:17-18 means that Jesus Christ came the first time not to abolish the prophecies in the Mosaic law and the Old Testament prophets regarding the Messiah's/the Christ's first coming, but to fulfill all those prophecies (Luke 24:44-48; e.g. Acts 3:22-26, Isaiah 53).

Matthew 5:19-20 refers to the New Covenant/New Testament commandments/sayings (Matthew 5:19, Matthew 7:24-29) which Jesus, as the Christ (Matthew 5:17b, Luke 24:44-46), was just about to give in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29), and which New Covenant commandments "exceed in righteousness" (Matthew 5:20 to 7:29) the (now) abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19), which was kept by the Pharisees. Compare what the apostle Paul says about himself (Philippians 3:5-14).

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justbyfaith said in post #2107:

The for ever fear that the Lord places in us means that we will never depart from Him.

Jeremiah 32:40 does not mean once-saved-always-saved. For the fear of God comes via His Spirit (Isaiah 11:2). And Christians can wrongly employ their free will to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), and to depart from God, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

justbyfaith said in post #2107:

And also, when God gives us a new heart, He causes us to walk in His statutes and in His judgments.

While God makes it possible for Christians to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13, John 15:4-5), He does not take away their free will, turning them into robots, or into macabre flesh puppets, mere marionettes whom He forces to dance across the stage as He pulls on their strings. Instead, He leaves them as His real children with free will. And so they have to choose each and every day to deny themselves, to take up their crosses, and to follow Jesus Christ, to the end (Luke 9:23, Matthew 24:13). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46, Luke 8:13).

 

[Bible2+]

Doug Melven said in post #2127:

But to be afraid of Him because He might punish us, that type of fear has torment and is an ungodly fear.

It is only if Christians perfectly love God that they will not misbehave (1 John 5:3, John 14:21-24), and so they will not have any fear of any impending punishment from God for any misbehavior (1 John 4:18). But if they become so wicked that they lose their fear of God (Psalms 36:1, Psalms 10:13), and so continue to misbehave without repentance, then they do need to fear impending punishment from God in the form of temporal chastening (Hebrews 12:6). And if they refuse to repent even after receiving temporal chastening (Revelation 3:19, Revelation 2:21), then they need to fear God's ability to cast them into hell (Luke 12:5) for their unrepentant misbehavior (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46).

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Doug Melven said in post #2130:

God has promised He would not leave us or forsake us. Hebrews 13:5

With conditions (e.g. 2 Timothy 2:12b).

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

It is only if Christians perfectly love God that they will not misbehave (1 John 5:3, John 14:21-24), and so they will not have any fear of any impending punishment from God for any misbehavior (1 John 4:18). But if they become so wicked that they lose their fear of God (Psalms 36:1, Psalms 10:13), and so continue to misbehave without repentance, then they do need to fear impending punishment from God in the form of temporal chastening (Hebrews 12:6). And if they refuse to repent even after receiving temporal chastening (Revelation 3:19, Revelation 2:21), then they need to fear God's ability to cast them into hell (Luke 12:5) for their unrepentant misbehavior (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46).

*******



With conditions (e.g. 2 Timothy 2:12b).

Paul said if we believe his Gospel, given to him by Christ Himself we would be saved.One is damned by adding to it ,whether it be works or repentance.Its in there.I would advise all to get familiar with it. 1cor15

 

[FreeGrace2]

Well we agree about what Paul meant about death being gain.

But the struggle, the battle, is not over flesh and blood. Once more in a letter addressed to Christians we are warned as such:
Ephesians 6:10-13[/QUOTE]
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power.
11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes.
12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
13Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.

Where, in this or any other passage, would I find the words about salvation being lost?

Or worse, that Satan has the power to take salvation from the believer?

Paul's point is to resist Satan's temptations and deceptions.

v.12 does not say that our struggle is in regard to losing salvation, as it seems your view is.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Take it up in the other thread:

Eternal Security based on a holy walk and the fear of falling away.

Just the title of that thread shows how bogus it is.

John 10:28 says eternal security is based on being given eternal life by Jesus.

As an analogy to the title of that thread, what kind of human father would keep his children in obedience by fear of being killed?

 

[112358]

Paul said if we believe his Gospel, given to him by Christ Himself we would be saved.One is damned by adding to it ,whether it be works or repentance.Its in there.I would advise all to get familiar with it. 1cor15

Just. Wow.
Works and repentance are in there too guy. I would advise all to get familiar with them.
James 2:20
Luke 13:3
There is plenty more to be found, but these are good starting points. I might also suggest taking a peek at Isaiah 5:20 when you damn someone by their works and repentance.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I asked:
"Please answer my question about why all these verses about being holy, blameless asnd worthy are given to believers, if those who have believed WILL be this way?"

I already did answer the question. Unfortunately for you, the answer is in spiritual words that you are incapable of understanding (1 Corinthians 2:13-14, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4, Acts of the Apostles 28:26-27).

This ad hominem is just an excuse to NOT answer the question. I gave you 25 verses that command the believer to be holy, blameless and worthy. But you can't answer the question.

The law is a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ (Galatians 3:24). All of the verses that tell us what we are to do and be as Christians fall under the category of Old and New Testament law. Once we come to Christ, we are no longer under a schoolmaster (Galatians 3:25) because we have learned all that the schoolmaster had to teach us. As born again believers, we obey the leadings and guidings of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:13-14), and as we do this, the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us (Romans 8:4). We bear the fruit of the Spirit, and against this there is no law (Galatians 5:22-23). Once we are born again, and have been given a new heart and a new spirit, God causes us to walk in His statutes and in His judgments (Ezekiel 36:25-27, Philippians 2:13). We retain all the lessons taught us by our schoolmaster and are obedient to those lessons through the power of the Holy Ghost (Acts of the Apostles 5:32).

All of this are commands for believers to obey.

But you've written this as if all believers will comply.

Again, IF all this is guaranteed or automatic, then WHY any commands? This is the question that you keep dodging.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The teaching in the Bible is said to be the "truth/doctrine which is according to godliness." (1 Timothy 6:3, Titus 1:1)

Believe-for-a-moment-theology is not according to godliness.

I have always agreed with this. It's impossible to be godly if one ceases to believe.

It is according to iniquity.

All sin is iniquity.

(and therefore it is not what the Holy Spirit and the authors intended when they wrote the Bible, and is not the teaching of the Bible.

Right. Which is why we have the commands to stop grieving and stop quenching the Holy Spirit. And to be filled with the Spirit and walk by the Spirit.

But none of the OSNAS crowd seems to grasp any of these commands. They seem to only see "saved vs lost" issues, and no concept of being in or out of fellowship.

The Bible tells us that in the last days people will depart from the faith, paying attention to doctrines of devils--even doctrines they develop from misinterpreting the Bible itself).

We sure see that today! OSNAS is just one example of misinterpreting the Bible.

According to believe-for-a-moment-theology, a man can depart from faith in Jesus Christ, and return to a life of iniquity, and still be saved.

The FACT is that Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

You figure that out.

It in effect turns the grace of God into lasciviousness and denies the holy nature of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Jude 1:3-4.

Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

Your issue is directly with Jesus Christ Himself. I believe what He said.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Then there is the question of whether one can truly graduate from the classroom if all he gets are F's. At some point he is going to have to get a good grade in the classroom, if he is going to graduate.

You've taken Gal 3 way too far. The purpose of the law was to teach that all are sinners and cannot save themselves. And that Jesus Christ is the solution to our problem. Period. It isn't about grades or classrooms.

The moment we come to the end of ourselves and realize we can't do it on our own, and let Jesus do our homework and take our test for us, we will surely get an A.

This STILL takes Gal 3 too far. It's not about homework. Or grades.

Actually I think we still have to do our own homework if we are going to learn anything.

OK, so you don't believe the Bible. Jesus did all the work for our salvation. All we can do is receive His salvation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No, for we must obey Him to receive ultimate salvation (Hebrews 5:9).

I'm done trying to deal with your unbiblical views. You can't prove your theory about initial vs ultimate salvation, and you can't explain why God would even bother with the former if one is ultimately saved by the latter.

And your presumption has been thoroughly exposed as a fallacy by the fact that you agree that "initial salvation" is by grace, and "ultimate salvation" is by works.

Nonsense. But that view makes the devil happy, for sure.

 

[112358]

As to your presumption that Satan wants believers to be in hell with him is nonsense.

Sorry. The presumption that he doesn't is the nonsense.

I agree that many of the consequences of sin result in physical pain and suffering. I acknowledge the scriptures you quoted stating as such.

But if he seeks to devour Christians, which we have established, it cannot mean physical death. The end of all flesh is physical death. All people, Christians and non Christians experience pain and suffering. How many faithful Christians have I known that suffered immensely in the flesh? Were they being "divinely disciplined"? Of course not.

Does James 5:20 make reference to the physical death of the wandering sinner? James is addressing his brethren, so please don't say that he speaks of unbelievers. It cannot be physical death, because all people die a physical death. It is spiritual death that Satan is after, and he devours us by convincing us to forsake our rightful inheritance. "You shall NOT surely die."

 

[112358]

If you want to follow Jesus do what He said.Follow Paul. if Paul says it , it’s as good as Jesus saying it.” Follow me as I follow Christ”——words breathed by the Holy Spirit.How do we Follow Paul? Believe Paul’s Gospel 1cor15:1-4 and your salvation is guaranteed—- unless you add to it with works , then you are accursed,damned, you have perverted the Gospel and Christ is no benefit to you.

And just so I'm clear...
If I believe Paul's Gospel, and my salvation is guaranteed, but then I add works, I am then damned, correct?
Then you clearly don't adhere to OSAS. There is so much wrong going on here, but this is the "logic" of OSAS.

 

[112358]

Slick way to force works into God's plan of grace, which is "not of works", per Eph 2:8,9.

You neglected to include the last part of the passage. "lest anyone should boast". The idea does not remove works (specifically works of obedience) from the equation. Obedience is required to access saving grace. Grace reigns, or runs, or rules through righteousness. Romans 5:21

The idea is that we remember that saving grace, while accessed through obedience, is a free gift that is not deserved and that we did not and cannot earn. We have no right to boast about the gift because it is not ours to give, but to receive. None of this suggests in any way that obedience, righteousness, is somehow severed from grace.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
As to your presumption that Satan wants believers to be in hell with him is nonsense.

Sorry. The presumption that he doesn't is the nonsense.

Your opinion is overturned by the fact that Satan knows Scripture better than you do, and He knows what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life.

He is under no illusion that he has any chance of undoing what God does to EVERY believer.

But if he seeks to devour Christians, which we have established, it cannot mean physical death.

Here is what it means:
1. physical and mental pain and suffering
2. deception
3. resultant failure to bear fruit
4. removal of one's testimony for the Lord

The end of all flesh is physical death.

It all depends upon what leads up to our death.

All people, Christians and non Christians experience pain and suffering.

Again, it all depends on the source; whether suffering for discipline, or suffering for blessing. But I doubt you've been taught these principles.

How many faithful Christians have I known that suffered immensely in the flesh?

Like Job. And God blessed him immensely when his suffering was over.

Were they being "divinely disciplined"? Of course not.

Agreed.

Does James 5:20 make reference to the physical death of the wandering sinner?

Of course it does. If it referred to eternal death, then Jesus wasn't truthful in John 10:28. How come you can't understand that?

James is addressing his brethren, so please don't say that he speaks of unbelievers

Nope. Believers, for sure.

It cannot be physical death, because all people die a physical death.

Why can't you comprehend that death at the hands of God's discipline, which might just include letting Satan at you mean anything to you?

Yes, we all will die. That's not the point. It's HOW we die. Do you think it makes no difference if God takes you out early for disobedience, or that your death is at the hand of Satan? Does that not provide any motivation for obedience?

Or are you only motivated by a fantasy threat of losing salvation and going to hell?

But THAT motivation is totally unbiblical and just reveals your FAILURE to believe what Jesus said.

It is spiritual death that Satan is after, and he devours us by convincing us to forsake our rightful inheritance. "You shall NOT surely die."

Nonsense. He knows Scripture FAR better than either of us. He know his ONLY time for messing with God's children is NOW, while they are physically alive.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Slick way to force works into God's plan of grace, which is "not of works", per Eph 2:8,9.

You neglected to include the last part of the passage. "lest anyone should boast".

That phrase doesn't change the fact that salvation is all of grace and "not of works".

Paul added that phrase as the reason we can't earn salvation by works. We'd all boast about what we've done. Just like that crowd in Matt 7:21-23. They erroneously thought they could enter heaven by what the DID. Nothing about believing.

The idea does not remove works (specifically works of obedience) from the equation.

Sure does. Sorry you resist that fact.

Obedience is required to access saving grace.

You have no clue what grace is about. It's all about what God has done for us, because we CAN'T do it ourselves.

Grace reigns, or runs, or rules through righteousness. Romans 5:21

Well, let's just see what the verse says, in full.

"so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

As I thought. Grace brings eternal life. You left that part out. And how does one receive eternal life? through faith, not works, not obedience, as you insinuate.

The idea is that we remember that saving grace, while accessed through obedience, is a free gift that is not deserved and that we did not and cannot earn.

This is all messed up. Saving grace is NOT "accessed through obedience", so please support this claim from Scripture, which I know can't be done.

Second, saving grace is not a free gift. Again, please support this claim from Scripture, which i know can't be done.

The free gift is eternal life itself. Romans 6:23 says so.

 

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Allow me to replace what you insist on removing from God's Word in bold below:

As I thought. Grace through righteousness brings eternal life. You left that part out. And how does one receive eternal life? through faith, not works, not obedience, as you insinuate.

You do agree that belief is a requirement, correct? Yet OSAS would have us accept that there are no other requirements. That somehow other acts of obedience are "works". Well, if that is true then belief itself is also a "work", because it is a requirement. But wait, I thought we are saved by grace alone without works? Your doctrine demands one and rejects the others. It fails the test of logic and sound reason. When weighed in the balance with the truth of God's Word it is found wanting.

And ultimately, this is why OSAS, if followed through to its logical end, results in a doctrine of universalism. If belief is removed as a requirement for saving grace, which it must if the other requirements are likewise removed, then saving grace becomes available to unbelievers. Christ died for all right? He paid the price for ALL sin, right?

You folks are making this too easy. I'll just keep deconstructing your OSAS fortress brick by brick with the truth of God's Word. It has a way of doing that.