Is the 6th seal about the destruction of Jerusalem?

[claninja]

Do you interpret everything in Revelation 11 in the literal sense then?

No. Only things that can be literally lined up with scripture and history. For example the trampling of Jerusalem by gentiles is only mentioned elsewhere in the NT in Luke 21. Historically, from the beginning of the war to the destruction of the temple was 42 months.

If you take the temple in the literal sense, as in the 2nd temple in Jerusalem, you did notice in the text this, right? and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

The outer court of this temple is given to the nations while they trample the holy city.

First of all it calls it the temple of God, then it indicates there are those who are worshiping therein. If the time meant here is post the death and resurrection of Christ, but still prior to 70 AD, thus likely meaning the 2nd temple(though I disagree), why would that temple still be called the temple of God when that temple became obsolete once Christ died and rose? And who would they be worshiping therein? God? Even after Christ died and rose, would God be honored and accepting of their worship, while at the same time they continued rejecting His Son in the process?

Christ made the old covenant obsolete at the cross for the Jews that died To the Law and were raised with
Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.
Romans 7:4
While the law was made obsolete at the cross. It was still being practiced. It still had its slaves. However, it was presently at the time of Paul fading away.
For if what is being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.
2 Corinthians 3:11
In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Hebrews 8:13
While the temple was still standing on earth, the way to Heaven was still not yet manifested.
the Holy Spirit this evidencing that not yet hath been manifested the way of the holy [places], the first tabernacle having yet a standing;
Hebrews 9:8

The law of God is perfect and glorious, but no man, except Christ, can follow it perfectly. the law can never provide salvation, as it can not be followed perfectly. Would God accept worship through the law? No, it cannot be followed perfectly. Only through Chrsit our we accepted. And when God destroyed the temple, he made sure no one else could attempt to follow the the law as instructed by the old covenant.

There couldn't possibly be a single thing in Revelation 11 that is connected with the events of 70 AD.

The gentiles trampled the holy city during the Jewish roman war for 42 months from 66-70ad. This could not possibly be connected with revelation 11? I guess if you ignore history then sure.

Do you think these verses are referring to the 2nd temple in Jerusalem? If no, and I'm assuming you don't, why not interpret Revelation 11:1-2 in light of passages such as these?

Context. The verses you quoted are explained by Paul as the spiritual temple. In revelation 11, the temple is associated with gentiles trampling it and the holy city.

What other context in the Bible do we have gentiles trampling the temple and holy city?

 

[shilohsfoal]

seems you are denying the deity that Jesus IS Almighty God -the First and the Last -Thee Alpha and the Omega
Jesus IS the Creator of the planet and the universes He speaks life into existence
The Great Day of the Lord who comes in His Fury

3 Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel.

Just as the Red Sea parted so shall Mount Olivet be parted
The intent to split Mt Olivet is to create the valley

It does not say his feet split the Mt.Those are your words you added to the word of God.That's all I'm,pointing out.God does not say his feet will split the Mt.You did.

 

[seventysevens]

It does not say his feet split the Mt.Those are your words you added to the word of God.That's all I'm,pointing out.God does not say his feet will split the Mt.You did.

Wrong!
As many times I tell people to look it up , it is expected that they do so
when you choose not to then you fail to do your due diligence
Screenshot from biblegateway.com

 

[shilohsfoal]

Wrong!
As many times I tell people to look it up , it is expected that they do so
when you choose not to then you fail to do your due diligence
Screenshot from biblegateway.com
View attachment 230109

It says his feet will stand on the Mt.It says the mt will split into.It does not say his feet will split the Mt.

So no,im not wrong.
You just changed his words and said his feet will split the Mt.

 

[seventysevens]

It says his feet will stand on the Mt.It says the mt will split into.It does not say his feet will split the Mt.

So no,im not wrong.
You just changed his words and said his feet will split the Mt.

Do you not have a bible ? why do you refuse to look it up in a bible ? Do you think I can change every bible on the planet from over here
IF IF you get a bible from anywhere and look up the scripture you will find it says EXACTLY Verbatim as I posted it , so your post is proof that you will not look it up , for IF you did you would see it for yourself
The mountain is in fine condition before the Creator of that mountain stood upon it , Then it splits in two to create a valley and even gives the reason why it happens

Overwhelming YES you are Wrong!
I did not change anything , [chuckling]

 

[shilohsfoal]

Do you not have a bible ? why do you refuse to look it up in a bible ? Do you think I can change every bible on the planet from over here
IF IF you get a bible from anywhere and look up the scripture you will find it says EXACTLY Verbatim as I posted it , so your post is proof that you will not look it up , for IF you did you would see it for yourself
The mountain is in fine condition before the Creator of that mountain stood upon it , Then it splits in two to create a valley and even gives the reason why it happens

Overwhelming YES you are Wrong!
I did not change anything , [chuckling]

I read the verse .It doesnt say his feet split the Mt.
You did.

Zechariah 14:4 On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half the mountain moving to the north and half to the south.

There's no need to rewrite the bible and change his word.It does not say his feet split the Mt.
You are assuming because he stands on the Mt,that is what causes it to split.
That's not an excuse to change his words.

 

[seventysevens]

I read the verse .It doesnt say his feet split the Mt.
You did.

Geez dude - Jesus Causes that mountain to split - it is not about His feet
It just means that Jesus will cause the mountain to split to create a valley for people to flee through - Just like the Red Sea was parted so people had a path to flee through , The Word of God Inspired by the Holy Spirit speaks of this matter because it is relevant to the matter of how Jesus is doing battle against the enemies
- you can believe whatever you want , you can think gophers ate the inside of that mountain and it was just coincidence that it gave out under the weight of Jesus standing on it
Jesus IS GOD - He created that mountain

 

[shilohsfoal]

Geez dude - Jesus Causes that mountain to split - it is not about His feet
It just means that Jesus will cause the mountain to split to create a valley for people to flee through - Just like the Red Sea was parted so people had a path to flee through , The Word of God Inspired by the Holy Spirit speaks of this matter because it is relevant to the matter of how Jesus is doing battle against the enemies
- you can believe whatever you want , you can think gophers ate the inside of that mountain and it was just coincidence that it gave out under the weight of Jesus standing on it

Jesus doesnt have to stand on it in order for it to split.
Al he would have to do is say the word and it would be done.And the word has already been said and written.
It has nothing to do with his feet or weight.
Regardless of the cause it will be done.
But his feet is not the cause nor does it say that.

 

[seventysevens]

Jesus doesnt have to stand on it in order for it to split.
Al he would have to do is say the word and it would be done.And the word has already been said and written.
It has nothing to do with his feet or weight.
Regardless of the cause it will be done.
But his feet is not the cause nor does it say that.

You have obvious troubles understanding what you read- I said it is not about his feet
It is how he makes a path for people to flee
Jesus does not have to return to earth - But He Does

 

[DavidPT]

Scripture says 42 Months.
We are not to teach otherwise.

Have to practice what we preach then, right? Revelation 20 says it's a thousand years. We are not to teach otherwise. So I assume you take those to mean literal years the same way you do with this 42 months, otherwise you are not practicing what you preach, you are cherry picking instead.

 

[DavidPT]

No. Only things that can be literally lined up with scripture and history. For example the trampling of Jerusalem by gentiles is only mentioned elsewhere in the NT in Luke 21. Historically, from the beginning of the war to the destruction of the temple was 42 months.



The outer court of this temple is given to the nations while they trample the holy city.



Christ made the old covenant obsolete at the cross for the Jews that died To the Law and were raised with
Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.
Romans 7:4
While the law was made obsolete at the cross. It was still being practiced. It still had its slaves. However, it was presently at the time of Paul fading away.
For if what is being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.
2 Corinthians 3:11
In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Hebrews 8:13
While the temple was still standing on earth, the way to Heaven was still not yet manifested.
the Holy Spirit this evidencing that not yet hath been manifested the way of the holy [places], the first tabernacle having yet a standing;
Hebrews 9:8

The law of God is perfect and glorious, but no man, except Christ, can follow it perfectly. the law can never provide salvation, as it can not be followed perfectly. Would God accept worship through the law? No, it cannot be followed perfectly. Only through Chrsit our we accepted. And when God destroyed the temple, he made sure no one else could attempt to follow the the law as instructed by the old covenant.



The gentiles trampled the holy city during the Jewish roman war for 42 months from 66-70ad. This could not possibly be connected with revelation 11? I guess if you ignore history then sure.



Context. The verses you quoted are explained by Paul as the spiritual temple. In revelation 11, the temple is associated with gentiles trampling it and the holy city.

What other context in the Bible do we have gentiles trampling the temple and holy city?

What you seem to be ignoring is the following fact.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


Obviously the times of the Gentiles have not already been fulfilled. The text clearly and plainly indicates the trodding down by the Gentiles continues until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The 42 month reign of the beast happens at the end of this age. That same 42 months in Revelation 11:2 is referring to this same 42 months in Revelation 13.

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.


We can't neglect what Luke 21 tells us as well---Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Obviously then, and Revelation 13 undeniably proves it, no literal city nor literal temple is meant in Revelation 11:1-2.

 

[DavidPT]

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Revelation 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

According to Revelation 11:1-2, not only does Luke 21:24 involve a city, it also involves a temple. Except as of 70 AD, there is no longer a standing temple. Several ways some try and get around this. Some conclude the above only has up to 70 AD in mind. Some others though, who see these things as being future still, they conclude another temple will eventually get built, thus fulfill these prophecies. The fact Luke 21:24 indicates Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled, and that the times of the Gentiles have not already been fulfilled, this debunks the historic interpretation of those passages. The futurist interpretation is the only one than can work then. But does it have to involve eventually building another temple in order to fulfill these prophecies? Apparently some think so, but I wouldn't be one of them, yet, I, too, hold to a futurist interpretation of the above passages.

 

[shilohsfoal]

You have obvious troubles understanding what you read- I said it is not about his feet
It is how he makes a path for people to flee
Jesus does not have to return to earth - But He Does

If they had paid attention they would have known beforehand.

Mark 13:14 So when you see the abomination of desolation standing where it should not be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

 

[Douggg]

We can't neglect what Luke 21 tells us as well---Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Obviously then, and Revelation 13 undeniably proves it, no literal city nor literal temple is meant in Revelation 11:1-2.

David, I am not understanding your logic. Revelation 13 is still unfulfilled, as well as Revelation 11:1-2.

The nations, the gentiles, will try to make war on Jesus, to keep him from executing judgment on them at the end of the 7 years.

The Mt of Olives where Jesus is to return, is just across the Kidron valley from the temple mount in Jerusalem. So I am not getting your logic that Jerusalem is not a literal city.

 

[DavidPT]

David, I am not understanding your logic. Revelation 13 is still unfulfilled, as well as Revelation 11:1-2.

The nations, the gentiles, will try to make war on Jesus, to keep him from executing judgment on them at the end of the 7 years.

The Mt of Olives where Jesus is to return, is just across the Kidron valley from the temple mount in Jerusalem. So I am not getting your logic that Jerusalem is not a literal city.

Even though I'm Premil, and that I also believe the 70th week is yet to be fulfilled, I am not also a Dispensationalist, how ever it's spelled and pronounced. If Revelation 11:2 involves the 42 month reign in Revelation 13, and the fact that will also involve the false prophet performing lying signs and wonders, I fail to see what that might have to do with the literal city of Jerusalem in particular. Nowhere in the context of Revelation 13 am I getting the impression those things are only regional.

 

[shilohsfoal]

Even though I'm Premil, and that I also believe the 70th week is yet to be fulfilled, I am not also a Dispensationalist, how ever it's spelled and pronounced. If Revelation 11:2 involves the 42 month reign in Revelation 13, and the fact that will also involve the false prophet performing lying signs and wonders, I fail to see what that might have to do with the literal city of Jerusalem in particular. Nowhere in the context of Revelation 13 am I getting the impression those things are only regional.

Revelation 17:9 This calls for a mind that has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.

Revelation 17:18 And the woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth."

Jerusalem,would come in the picture involving the seven heads of the beast in rev 13.

I believe these things are only regional .

 

[claninja]

First thing you should do for your own understanding is do an extensive deep study on when the Book of Revelation was written
Just like forensic crime techs do , they find a hair , they analyze it to determine what race of person it belongs to , they do deep investigation on blood spatter analysis , it takes time to do it and learn those hidden facts that break open the case

As should anyone looking to further study the word of God

Who is the direct audience?
Internal evidence? any information suggesting the time frame within the text?
External evidence? any extrabiblical sources to suggest the time frame?

Know that any evidence for either post 70ad or pre 70ad does not 100% prove the dating of its writing. And Weigh the evidence without using any eschatological bias (easier said than done).

,- as long as you assume Revelation applies to the first century you will not get the correct answers

I mean, I don't have to assume. It literally applies to the 1st century.

Revelation 1:1,4 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servantsa the things that must SOON TAKE PLACE. John to the seven churches that are in Asia.

If it doesn't apply to what these 7 churches would soon see, but is about something to occur 2000+ years later to a different audience, it's a little misleading to these 7 churches, no?

Let's take a look at another seal for further time frame context. the 3rd seal:
Revelation 6:5-6 When he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come!” And I looked, and behold, a black horse! And its rider had a pair of scales in his hand. And I heard what seemed to be a voice in the midst of the four living creatures, saying, “A quarta of wheat for a denarius,b and three quarts of barley for a denarius, and do not harm the oil and wine!”
A quart of wheat would cost a denarius. 3 quarts of barley would cost a denarius. This tells us 2 things. 1.) wheat and barley would be really expensive, most likely meaning famine. 2.) A denarius is the currency, specifically roman currency.

According to Josephus in Wars 5.10.2, Rich Jews sold what they had of wheat and poor Jews sold what they had for barley during the famine that occurred during the Jewish Roman war.

Is roman currency, the denarius, coming back in the future?

it is all about the prophecies of the Last Days of the End of the Age.

Of which the disciples believed they were living in.

1 Corinthians 10:11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.

Acts 2:16-17 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: ‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.

1 John 2:18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

 

[claninja]

What you seem to be ignoring is the following fact.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Just because we disagree on when it is fulfilled, doesn't mean I'm ignoring it. We just disagree on its meaning.

Obviously the times of the Gentiles have not already been fulfilled. The text clearly and plainly indicates the trodding down by the Gentiles continues until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Earthly Jerusalem was a slave and was to be cast out to never inherit anything with those of the true city: heavenly Jerusalem.
Galatians 4:30 “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.
Until the temple was destroyed, the way to the holy place would not be revealed
Hebrews 9:8-9 By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the holy places is not yet opened as long as the first tabernacle is still standing9(which is symbolic for the present age).
The gentiles trampled Jerusalem at the start of the Jewish-Roman war in 66ad, all the way until the city and sanctuary were destroyed in 70AD. Thus God, using the roman armies to inflict vengeance on Jerusalem for the blood of prophets, removed the first tabernacle, revealing that the way into the holy places had been opened. The slave was cast out and the kingdom was taken from the Jews and given to a new nation. The true Jerusalem in heaven was revealed, never to be trampled by anyone, while the earthly jerusalem, the shadow of the heavenly, was cast out.

The 42 month reign of the beast happens at the end of this age. That same 42 months in Revelation 11:2 is referring to this same 42 months in Revelation 13.

is this time period also the same 42 months (1260 days) where the woman is nourished?
revelation 12:6
The woman fled into the wilderness, where God had prepared a place for her to be nourished for one thousand two hundred sixty days.

 

[keras]

Of which the disciples believed they were living in.

1 Corinthians 10:11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.

Acts 2:16-17 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: ‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.

1 John 2:18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

But plainly and obviously they thought wrongly.
The culmination of the ages has NOT yet come.
The Spiritual outpouring at Pentecost didn't last. That awaits a final fulfillment.
We continue to have Anti-Christs; from Genghis Khan, to Hitler and Stalin and many more. Quite a few around today!

So your preterist notions are wrong and we do, in fact have a future. For the faithful Christians; amazing blessing in the holy Land. Isaiah 35:1-10
For the ungodly peoples; not so nice. Romans 1:18

 

[seventysevens]

As should anyone looking to further study the word of Know that any evidence for either post 70ad or pre 70ad does not 100% prove the dating of its writing.

IF you take the time to do a deep level investigation you will find that it is impossible for the Book of Revelation to be applied to 70 AD as you prefer to apply it , all evidence shows the it was written in 96 AD - but the real point is even if it was written in 74 AD - it is still impossible to accurately apply it to the 70 AD account of the temple destruction - it was not written before 70 AD which is proof enough that it is not at all about that temple.
Instead of accepting the obvious you are preferring to apply scripture to something it has no relation to which results in your misunderstanding.

Another flaw in your statement is where you are using John 1 to be the same as the Book of Revelation - John 1 is speaking of how Almighty God came to earth as a human man to those of His chosen and they did not know him , they did not accept him ,

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

In the Book of Rev it is all about Jesus Returning to earth , after the people of earth have learned that he is God incarnate in the flesh
entirely different than book of John

John 1:1,4 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servantsa the things that must SOON TAKE PLACE.

This tells us 2 things. 1.) wheat and barley would be really expensive, most likely meaning famine. 2.) A denarius is the currency, specifically roman currency.
Is roman currency, the denarius, coming back in the future?

There is greater level of famine in these latter days than there was in those days , the matter of currency is something that is important to understand , but it itself is a whole matter unto itself pertaining to these last days we now are living in - properly understood the Last Days is a reference to the last days just before the return of Jesus to reign on earth