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Is The Rapture and Jesus' 2nd Coming Really Two Separate Events?

Drought of the Heart

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No, Jesus came on earth when He was born. He came back after the Cross and He will come one last time. A false prophet in the 1800 allowed satan to confuse this. Jesus is very clear the events in order in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21...Luke 21:
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh



And then they shall see, KJV
 
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BABerean2

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Well, you can pretend like NT customs of " casting out the devil " are not from the Levitical ritual of the sin goat ( devil ) at rosh chodesh ( The flood ), but that would be contrary to the scriptures, so I couldn't agree with you

Dave,

You are not arguing with me.

You are arguing with the Greek word found in the text.


.
 
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seventysevens

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But being kept can mean how in us we are kept from something, from how it would effect us.
Jesus says He as Himself will keep us out from the hour of trial... that is not being kept from as in how you are applying it
Rev 3
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth

Some people get this verse all twisted because they do not want to accept what it says -
it be absurd to say that Jesus is telling a church that has been dead 2000 years Before the rapture happens that he will keep them out of the HOUR of trial -the GT

It be absurd to say that only one congregation is keep out of the HOUR of trial - but people who do not want to believe , will go to extreme lengths to twist verses to mean something other than what they actually say -

Matt 21
22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
Matt 18
19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven
Mark 11
24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
John 14
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
John 15
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Luke 21
36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Consider that you are about to lift and move a heavy item such as a couch and you ask a person to give you a hand -- the plain sense , common sense understanding is that you have asked for assistance in moving the couch , but some people may choose to twist the meaning of this and choose to give you an applause clapping their hands , but that is not a wise manner to interpret what was said- likewise some people choose to interpret scripture in a manner that is not in conjunction with what the text is indicating but rather choosing to put on scripture a meaning that was never intended to be placed upon it.

Jesus tells us to pray that we may be worthy to escape the
Scripture has told us many many times that what we pray and ask for - we will receive it if we do not doubt that we will receive it

Jesus is making it very very clear that the people who have kept HIS Word to keep on keeping on - to not stray and keep the faith - to fight the good fight - to continue to abide in Christ Jesus no matter what tribulation you may have had to endure whether it be heavy persecution of your faith or any other hardships people have endured.

Jesus will keep those people out from the hour of trial that will come upon the earth -the hour of temptation - the temptation of that hour is that it will be extremely harsh living situations to live a normal happy life when you are under the extreme tyrannical an maniacal King/leader at that time who declares himself to the world that he is God and causes such signs and wonders that convince the world he really is God and take the mark demanded of them to take and if they do not take it they can not buy food or have a job , or pay bills or anything in the financial aspect unless they take the mark - the temptation is that it would make life easier to submit to the temptation of the mark so they can buy food

Those who have accepted Jesus as savoir Prior to the GT will not go through it -
There is no need for the words harpazo or raptus /rapture in this verse because the Almighty Himself declares that HE will keep those people who kept their faith in Him out from that hour that He spoke of which is the GT- He Jesus will call us up before it happens -
That is His protection - just as you would remove your own children out from a dangerous place to protect them by removing them from the danger

this topic is intermingled with scripture all through the bible
 
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DaveDavids

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Well, perhaps you claim the concordances are lying / wrong ?

Seems rather bold....

Strong's Hebrew 8163

sa'iyr - devil

Noun - he-goat
Adjective - hairy
Adjective - satyr

Scapegoating

In the Bible, a scapegoat is an animal which is ritually burdened with the sins of others then driven away. The concept first appears in Leviticus, in which a goat is designated to be cast into the desert to carry away the sins of the community.

And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats: one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for Azazel.

— Leviticus 16:8

Azazel - Strongs Hebrew 5799

Short Definition: scapegoat


scapegoat.jpg




Brown-Driver-Briggs

עֲזָאזֵל noun [masculine] entire removal (reduplicated intensive (Ges§ 30 n. Sta§ 124 a), abstract, √ [עזל] = Arabic
bdb073608.gif
remove, see BährSymb. ii. 668 Winii. 659 ff. Me SchenkelBL. i. 256; > most, proper name of spirit haunting desert

_As per the concordance listing :)____________________

I would further point out from my own rigorous study that this dates back to Sumerian priestly rituals, but I don't want to confuse you in the academic sense, at least not yet, so I won't get into anything you'd be unfamiliar with as a Bible student :

Sumerian - eden-lil [DESERT] (7x: Old Babylonian) wr. eden-lil2 "haunted desert"

Oboa.png


eden-lil

Sumerian - lil
[GHOST] (92x: Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. lil2 "wind, breeze; ghost" Akkadian : zīqīqu

Occc.png






But since you want to bring up Greek, let's go there

Here's an example of " casting out " from Greek scriptures:

Mar 6:13

" And they cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them "

εκβαλλω ekballo {ek-bal'-lo} from 1537 and 906; TDNT - 1:527,91; v AV - cast out 45, cast 11, bring forth 3, pull out 3, send forth 3, misc 17; 82 1) to cast out, drive out, to send out 1a) with notion of violence 1a1) to drive out (cast out) 1a2) to cast out 1a2a) of the world, i.e. be deprived of the power and influence he exercises in the world 1a2b) a thing: excrement from the belly into the sink 1a3) to expel a person from a society: to banish from a family 1a4) to compel one to depart; to bid one depart, in stern though not violent language 1a5) so employed that the rapid motion of the one going is transferred to the one sending forth 1a51) to command or cause one to depart in haste 1a6) to draw out with force, tear out 1a7) with implication of force overcoming opposite force 1a7a) to cause a thing to move straight on its intended goal 1a8) to reject with contempt, to cast off or away 1b) without the notion of violence 1b1) to draw out, extract, one thing inserted in another 1b2) to bring out of, to draw or bring forth 1b3) to except, to leave out, i.e. not receive 1b4) to lead one forth or away somewhere with a force which he cannot resist

from 1537

εκ ek {ek} or εξ ex {ex} a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative;; prep AV - of 367, from 181, out of 162, by 55, on 34, with 25, misc 97; 921 1) out of, from, by, away from

( This word itself is a partial etymological source of the word " eclipse " in Greek, which I assume you are familiar with, having studied the same things Jesus would have been well versed in, as all High Priests were )

and 906

βαλλω ballo {bal'-lo} a primary word; TDNT - 1:526,91; v AV - cast 86, put 13, thrust 5, cast out 4, lay 3, lie 2, misc 12; 125 1) to throw or let go of a thing without caring where it falls 1a) to scatter, to throw, cast into 1b) to give over to one's care uncertain about the result 1c) of fluids 1c1) to pour, pour into of rivers 1c2) to pour out 2) to put into, insert






I assume you are also familiar with the 7th tractate of the Kodashim, since it is what the " cutting off " of the messiah in prophecy is from, sir

Kodashim (Hebrew: קדשים‎, "Holy Things") is the fifth of the six orders, or major divisions, of the Mishnah, Tosefta and the Talmud, and deals largely with the services within the Temple in Jerusalem, its maintenance and design, the korbanot, or sacrificial offerings that were offered there

7th tractate- Keritot ("Excisions"), with six chapters, deals with the transgressions for which the penalty is karet, meaning, sins punishable by premature or sudden death, or being cut off from the community of Israel, if done deliberately, and the type of sin-offering sacrifice that had to be offered to effect atonement if the transgression was committed in error.


εκβαλλω ekballo- to expel a person from a society


Honestly, I could post at great length on this topic, ( a wasted effort I would feel here ) and after my studies, I couldn't agree with what you are trying to peddle, not based on academic sources




 
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LastSeven

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Jesus Himself says plainly that he will take His people out from that hour of testing that will come upon the earth inhabitants
You speak of this topic with such confidence, that you must know with 100% certainty what is this "hour of testing" that Jesus spoke of, since this appears to be the very foundation of your position.

Yet you can't know, because the Bible doesn't explicitly tell us, leaving only assumption and supposition. Your confidence could therefore be entirely misplaced, and your foundation weak.

If you care to admit that you're making an assumption here, even an educated guess, I would respect that. Sometimes gaps in scripture force us to assume, but for you to claim that you know for sure what this hour of testing refers to is disingenuous at best.
 
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seventysevens

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You speak of this topic with such confidence, that you must know with 100% certainty what is this "hour of testing" that Jesus spoke of, since this appears to be the very foundation of your position.

Yet you can't know, because the Bible doesn't explicitly tell us, leaving only assumption and supposition. Your confidence could therefore be entirely misplaced, and your foundation weak.
If you care to admit that you're making an assumption here, even an educated guess, I would respect that. Sometimes gaps in scripture force us to assume, but for you to claim that you know for sure what this hour of testing refers to is disingenuous at best
It has been stated many many many times - in order to understand this topic it Requires to study and include ALL of the scriptures regarding this topic from cover to cover of the Holy Bible , most people do not do that , as they will only include a couple verses from Thess, and couple from revelation, a couple from matt and they be done and draw their own assumptions from that. You have to study to find out what "hour" Jesus refers to which is not hard , it just requires to read and study , surely no one would make the assumption that it is just some random verse that has no application . Just study the scriptures , the context , the subject matter - just as the many scriptures in the OT that speak of Jesus return , they are all over the bible because they were written by various authors at various points in history - but ALL were inspired by the Holy Spirit ,
Just as a person that cannot work an algebraic equation unless they spend the time studying how , a person that will not studying the scripture to find out how the verse applies will not - simple comparison - some people say that Jesus never said that he was God , yes he did but not in those exact words , Jesus was perplexed when Philip said show us the Father and Jesus was like - after all the miracles their own eyes had seen Jesus perform how can they ask such a thing ?
It is unfortunate that you are not willing to put forth the time it takes to learn of this matter

To explain it and give the supporting scriptures that show that is is not an assumption requires listing and explaining many scriptures that reveal this truth , I have seen that if a person takes the enormous amount of time it takes to type it all out , those who will not put forth the time to learn will not understand anyway, since you will not put forth your time you are making the assumption that no one can know and so you will not learn it
You cannot provide any scripture that can refute it , buy yet you choose to call it assumption , you do have freewill to believe as you wish , it matters not at all to me what you believe or disbelieve
The simple matter of who the 'strong delusion' is something you and others choose not to believe , and you can believe whatever you desire , but you cannot prove what you say which is a very weak argument and disingenuous on your part
 
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LastSeven

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It has been stated many many many times - in order to understand this topic it Requires to study and include ALL of the scriptures regarding this topic from cover to cover of the Holy Bible ,
That's a clear cop-out. Everytime somebody asks you to prove something you respond with "You must study!". In other words, you can't explain it, which tells me you don't have an answer.

You cannot provide any scripture that can refute it
It's not up to me to prove you wrong if you can't first prove yourself right. You're the one making the claim, but until you can actually substantiate your position, it is nothing more than an assumption. That's a fact.
 
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BABerean2

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Kodashim (Hebrew: קדשים‎, "Holy Things") is the fifth of the six orders, or major divisions, of the Mishnah, Tosefta and the Talmud, and deals largely with the services within the Temple in Jerusalem, its maintenance and design, the korbanot, or sacrificial offerings that were offered there

7th tractate- Keritot ("Excisions"), with six chapters, deals with the transgressions for which the penalty is karet, meaning, sins punishable by premature or sudden death, or being cut off from the community of Israel, if done deliberately, and the type of sin-offering sacrifice that had to be offered to effect atonement if the transgression was committed in error.

The Babylonian Talmud is based on the writings of the rabbis, who lived after 70 AD.

Based on the book "Jesus in the Talmud" by Dr. Peter Schafer, it claims Christ is the illegitimate child of Mary and a Roman soldier named "Pantera".

https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Talmud-Peter-Schäfer/dp/0691143188/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1527975057&sr=8-1&keywords=jesus+in+the+talmud

You need to find a better source of truth.


.
 
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seventysevens

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That's a clear cop-out. Everytime somebody asks you to prove something you respond with "You must study!". In other words, you can't explain it, which tells me you don't have an answer.


It's not up to me to prove you wrong if you can't first prove yourself right. You're the one making the claim, but until you can actually substantiate your position, it is nothing more than an assumption. That's a fact.
That is exactly the BAD attitude I expect from you - You refuse to study but you want everyone else to prove anything you accuse , sorry about your luck , but it is your responsibility to prove your case , but you don't have a case , your weak argument is like those who demand Christians to Prove there is a God , then prove their God has done as the Christians says God has done , ,they never agree because they don't want to , they choose not to study

IT IS all your responsibility to study Not mine to prove what you choose not to take the time to learn, - besides the last time we engaged I showed you scripture proof that you asked for and it took several times giving you the answer and you did not understand it , that is all on you ..
I don't waste time on those who always looking to blame anyone else when they refuse to read study and learn- if you disagree that fine with me , It matters not to me what you choose to believe
 
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com7fy8

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You can have your preferred view
My preferred view was pre-trib. Then I checked what actually is and is not written in the Scriptures. And Jesus talks about gathering "the elect" "Immediately after" the greatest tribulation "ever" > Matthew 24.
 
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com7fy8

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Jesus will remove HIS people out from the time HE causes the testing,
It says He will keep, not remove, if I remember correctly . . . talking about Revelation 3:10.

Plus, Jesus is greater than any trial > 1 John 4:4. So, with Jesus we can bear and even do well during any situation, like our Apostle Paul learned to do > Philippians 4:11-13.

There are scholars who understand that keeping means to protect. Jesus can protect us without removing us from this evil world.

And we have how Jesus Himself prayed for our Father to keep us from the evil, but Jesus was not asking our Father to remove us from this evil world.

"'I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.'" (John 17:15)

So, yes God is able to keep and protect us while we are right "in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation" (Philippians 2:13-16).
 
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com7fy8

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people who believe they must go through it refuse to acknowledge scripture that tells the full story
Ok . . . we can see here if we are acknowledging scripture or not >

If a trial is upon the worldly people, we in Jesus are not worldly people!!!!

And so, even if we are present during how God tests this world, we do not go through it like the worldly people do. It is easier for us . . . in Jesus Christ's yoke which is "easy" and His burden which is "light" > see Matthew 11:28-30, please.

And if worldly people can survive it, surely our God is able to keep us from it and how it would take us down . . . like how Jesus on the cross went right through all that was done to Him on Calvary, but defeated Satan and death and suffering, while going right through it all > Hebrews 2:14-15.

Romans 14:9 > Jesus went through things so now He is lord of those things; and it is like this for us who live in Jesus > Galatians 2:20.

"And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

So, our example Jesus went through suffering and sacrifice sweetly pleasing our Heavenly Father. And Jesus in us shares this with us, so we also are sweetly pleasing to our Father.

Hebrews 2:14-15

1 John 4:17

2 Corinthians 12:7-11 > God's almighty grace is able to keep us from howsoever any trouble would effect us. Our Apostle Paul says he took "pleasure" in his troubles > 2 Corinthians 12:10. This is because God's grace in us is almighty to keep us from how Satanic things would effect us.

Paul also says, "I will not be brought under the power of any," in 1 Corinthians 6:12; I think this can apply to while we are attacked by trouble > if trouble messes with things in our lives, such as our money, trouble can't get the better of us if we are not under the power of our money. And God's almighty grace is God's own love effecting us so we even can enjoy Heaven's own pleasant rest, right while we go through things.

Satan got thrown out of Heaven (Luke 10:18); so God's grace can easily defeat howsoever Satanic things would try to mess us > Romans 5:5, 1 John 4:17, Ephesians 4:31-32.

So, we do not boast how great Satan and his beast and trouble making may be; but we boast how great our God is able >

"casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you." (1 Peter 5:7)
 
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com7fy8

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I do not and will not exclude scripture to support a view that says that Jesus will put those who trust in Him in danger ,
If we are with Jesus while we go through something, we are not in danger!!!! And therefore, what you are referring to, here, is not at all what I have claimed; and I'm not saying you are claiming I have said such a thing. But with Jesus we can be "in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation" (Philippians 2:13-16) which is a very dangerous situation, but we are not truly in danger here in this horrible world of Satan . . . because of how God is so greater (1 John 4:4) ! ! !

So, here we are offering scripture, to show that Jesus does put us in dangerous situations . . . but He keeps us safe.

Jesus Himself has said >

"'Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.'" (Luke 10:3)

And part of how to be safe is to be "wise as serpents and harmless as doves." And already we have offered scripture showing how right "in the midst of" this evil world's "crooked and perverse generation" we can become "blameless and harmless, children of God without fault" (Philippians 2:13-16). So, right here in this dangerous and evil world with all its temptation God's grace not only keeps us safe, but He also changes us to be "blameless and harmless, children of God without fault" the way His love changes our nature to become.

This shows how greater and how superior our Heavenly Father is to any problem or test which might come against us.

So, the glory and honor is to You, O God our Heavenly Father; thank You in the name of Your own Son Jesus ! ! !
 
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com7fy8

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the statement
"the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth." Specifies "on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth."

quite clear and plain
With Jesus, we can easily pass any test > Matthew 11:30.

The main problem is our own selves. This is why Jesus says we need to deny ourselves and take up our cross and follow Jesus > Luke 9:23.

But there are people who can be defeated by a trial, just by thinking about it!! So, do not let yourself be defeated by just the thought of a test!!!! Any trial coming our way will be about how God is able. And so, then, we all need deep correction > Hebrews 12:4-11 < so we can share with God and do His will in any situation.

For a while, as I have said, my preference was pre-trib. But during that time, I knew certain pre-trib people who spoke in a way which seemed like they were afraid of the great tribulation. But Jesus says not to fear >

"'And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.'" (Luke 12:4)

"'Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.'" (John 14:27)

Also, we have how we need to be "anxious" about nothing, but pray, and God's own peace will keep our hearts and minds > Philippians 4:6-7. So, Jesus keeps us, in this dangerous world, by keeping our hearts and minds in His own peace :)

Also, God's love "casts out fear, because fear involves torment" (in 1 John 4:18).

So, when Bible claiming people I knew talked like they were afraid of the tribulation, I got suspicious of what they believed. But even if they were wrong, that did not automatically prove that their belief was wrong. So, in due time I searched the Scriptures to see if any verse says anything like "Jesus will come back before the great tribulation." And I found how wherever there is a reference to Jesus coming back, it does not clearly state "before" anything.

But we do have all which Jesus Himself says will come "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" > Matthew 24. This includes gathering God's "elect" . . . not during, not before, but "Immediately after".
 
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com7fy8

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Jesus says He as Himself will keep us out from the hour of trial... that is not being kept from as in how you are applying it
My translation says Jesus will keep us from, not out of. And I have checked a number of translations which say "keep". None says "remove". I can not give you a scripture quote where Jesus says He will "remove" us.

By the way, even if some trial were to come to test us, God is greater so our answer to the test or trial will not be like that of worldly people. But in case God were to test us His children, we are directed to submit to Him so we do what He has us doing about any test which He may bring >

Proverbs 3:5-6

James 4:7

Philippians 2:13 > we do simply what God in us works in us "to will and to do for His good pleasure." Because the right answer to any trial will be what God in us has us doing! :)

And I have already offered how Shadrach and Meshach and Abed-Nego were tried by being thrown right into that fiery furnace > Daniel chapter 3. They were not harmed while in such a dangerous situation!!!! But the ones who threw them into the furnace were killed by those flames. So, the flames of that trial actually helped to protect God's children.

So, if we are God's children, we go through things with Him, and discover how He uses anything to bless us with so much more than whatever any trial might take away . . . like happened to Job, and to Jesus on Calvary > > > God brings us to a resurrection of so much more and better than anything we might lose.

So, instead of fearing a trial or boasting how great it is, know how great God is :) With God, even while He may be testing us Himself, we can obey how He has us answering to His test; and so we will not only be on some defense and struggling against things, but God will keep bringing us to resurrections of more and better.

"Test all things; hold fast what is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

When things come to test us, test those things, howsoever God has us testing for all the good which God is able to use any situation to bring His own good all-loving.
 
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com7fy8

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Jesus tells us to pray that we may be worthy to escape
Shadrach and Meshach and Abed-Nego escaped the flames, after going right through them > Daniel chapter three.

And Jesus Himself does say that "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" "the elect" will be gathered > Matthew 24. So, we with Jesus can go right through something, and then escape it because of how Jesus kept us from it so it could not keep us.

And we have how Joseph > Genesis 37-50 > was in such a horrible situation, but then the LORD blessed him to take over the whole nation of the people who had him as a slave and put in prison for what he did not do.

And like this Jesus went through death so now He has overcome and defeated death and is Lord of all, including of the dead > Romans 14:9. So, with God who is so greater we can go through anything with Him and become the masters of it all, along with Jesus who in us has us living and loving the way He succeeds > Galatians 2:20, Galatians 4:19.

So, we boast of how great our God is, instead of boasting how great Satan and his world is or will be, or some test is.
 
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com7fy8

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Jesus is making it very very clear that the people who have kept HIS Word to keep on keeping on - to not stray and keep the faith - to fight the good fight - to continue to abide in Christ Jesus no matter what tribulation you may have had to endure whether it be heavy persecution of your faith or any other hardships people have endured.
Amen, this is correct.
 
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com7fy8

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Jesus will keep those people out from the hour of trial that will come upon the earth -the hour of temptation - the temptation of that hour is that it will be extremely harsh living situations to live a normal happy life when you are under the extreme tyrannical an maniacal King/leader
As I say, we boast of how great our God is, not of how great any Satanic ruler is or will be. We do not need to flee from him >

"Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)

And Jesus Himself says that while ones are hating and persecuting us . . .

"Rejoice and be exceedingly glad" > in Matthew 5:11-12. This is better than being happy the way a number of people try to be happy. This does not depend on circumstances which ones depend on in order to be happy.
 
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com7fy8

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maniacal King/leader at that time who declares himself to the world that he is God and causes such signs and wonders that convince the world he really is God and take the mark demanded of them to take and if they do not take it they can not buy food or have a job , or pay bills or anything in the financial aspect unless they take the mark - the temptation is that it would make life easier to submit to the temptation of the mark so they can buy food
And there will be those who do not take the mark. They will be in the trial but not give in to it.

And if people are being killed by God's judgments and tormented by various judgments, it is possible they will abandon food and other items and even their children. If this is so, we can use abandoned food and adopt children and help them become children of God.

And Jesus says His yoke is easy and His burden is light, in Matthew 11:28-30; so with Jesus, if we may use abandoned items, we won't need any mark or money!!!! And it could even be easier in Christ's yoke during the great tribulation, for us, than how things are now while we are trying to twist things to justify how we must depend on money and materials and machines and military and mothers and men.

If we handle things the way Jesus leads > "you will find rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:28-30) This rest is in God's love "in our hearts" (Romans 5:5), with almighty power to keep us from how Satanic ones would try to mess us. This, then, is about how spiritual God Himself is ! ! !
 
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