Levels of EvC belief

[VirOptimus]

My assertion is based on the fact that there is no evidence of life in the universe other than here on earth. The odds of life out there is not evidence of life out there.

There is currently no way of detecting life on other planets. Furthermore, the absence of evidence is generally not evidence of absence.

So, still baseless.

 

[pitabread]

There is currently no way of detecting life on other planets.

Looking for atmospheric signatures could indicate the possibility of life on other planets: A new 'atmospheric disequilibrium' could help detect life on other planets

 

[jayem]

Most back pain is caused by fatigue or injury, not bad design. It is also a common side effect of many medications. Also most back pain is muscle related, not spinal. Being overweight, sedentary, and stressed out doesn't help either.

Worse yet doctors are unable to recommend proper rest for low back pain. Because it often gets worse after a day in bed they don't recommend bed rest as a remedy. However because persistent back ache is often the result of long term accumulated fatigue and/or mental/emotional stress complete rest is the remedy most needed as the entire body and mind are involved, not just the back. In this sense the back is the canary in the coal mine.

I don't want go off topic, but back pain is not the issue. Disc disease is a real illness. There are objective anatomic and physiologic abnormalities of the intervertebral discs that occur spontaneously and independently of lifestyle. And it occurs with much higher frequency in our species than in other mammals. The article is very technical, but it discusses the limitations of using animal models to study disc disease. Very few animals develop spontaneous IVD pathology as we do.

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/bmri/2016/5952165/

Blaming design for these problems is like getting drunk and driving into a tree then blaming the design of the car for the crash.

But the crashes that I'm talking about happen to responsible drivers, who've taken good care of their vehicles because the brake pads don't last as long as the rest of the car.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/bmri/2016/5952165/



But the crashes that I'm talking about happen to responsible drivers, who've taken good care of their vehicles because the brake pads don't last as long as the rest of the car.

Your link gives the impression that most low back pain is caused by spinal issues, which is false. "To a hammer, every problem is a nail."

 

[OldWiseGuy]

There is currently no way of detecting life on other planets. Furthermore, the absence of evidence is generally not evidence of absence.

So, still baseless.

I like it. Don't let that swinging door hit you.

 

[VirOptimus]

I like it. Don't let that swinging door hit you.

Like what? Making baseless assertions?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Like what? Making baseless assertions?

I like the statement that "absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence".

 

[VirOptimus]

I like the statement that "absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence".

Ok, but you have to use the qualifer too.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Ok, but you have to use the qualifer too.

My point was as it stands today there is no evidence of ET life.

 

[VirOptimus]

My point was as it stands today there is no evidence of ET life.

But that was not what you asserted.

 

[Doveaman]

What do mean by "ideal?"

We walk like God.

That's one reason we share His image.

For the record, there is a drawback to having a spine suited for bipedalism.

From an evolutionary viewpoint, it's easy to understand.

The human mind is a much bigger drawback than the human spine.

Evolution sucks in developing the human mind:

 

[Ophiolite]

The natural state of the universe is the absence of life, therefore biological life on earth is supernatural, therefore ..................

I had to trawl through pages of posts to find the source of your discussion with VirOptimus. Let's analyses your statements a little more closely.

The natural state of the universe is the absence of life.

Is this true in any sense? If we consider the volume of the solar system and the volume of the living elements of the biospshere and compare them, then, for all practical purposes, life is not present in the solar system. Of course, using a similar argument there are, for all practical purposes, no stars in the universe. Clearly judging the absence or presence of life by absolute volume is absurd.

So, is life absent from the universe apart from this singular occurance on Earth? Of course, we do not know. Therefore all we can say with certainty is that:

The natural state of the universe may be the absence of life, or ir may be the presence of life.

If we choose to speculate which is more likely between these two choices we note the following:

1. Life, as we know it, depends upon several elements, but four are of particular importance: carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen. And I'll throw phosphorus into the mix as well. How common are these? The answer is, very common. They are the 4th, 1st, 3rd and 7th most abundant. (P comes in at somewhere around 15.) Those are the estimates for the universe. The order varies slightly when we look at specific regions, but in all cases there are plenty of the elements we know are prerequisites for life.

2. Not only are the elements present, but they are often present in combinations that are part of the prebiotic chemistry that likely led to the origin of life. Considerably more than one hundred organic compounds have been detected "out there". They are in meteorites, planetary atmospheres, comets, coating the ice of satellites and (in huge quantities) in the Giant Molecular Clouds that - on collapse - generate multiple stellar systems.

3. And, we now know, those stellar systems frequently - perhaps almost always - have planets. And some of those planets are Earth like. Yet we have only begun to look.

4. Life appeared on Earth within 100 million years of conditions becoming 'mellow' enough. This means that either life can arise (naturally) rather quickly, or life arrived from somewhere else (pan spermia).

These points suggest, quite strongly, that we should expect to find life elsewhere in the universe.
Yet you go on to say:

therefore biological life on earth is supernatural

Clearly such a statement is nonsense - you have not established that the natural state of the universe is the absence of life; the evidence suggests that all the major conditions required for life are available, out there, in quantity.

I suggest, if you intend to reply, you do so either to concede you were mistaken, or you come to the table with something properly researched, logically sound and succinctly presented.

 

[jayem]

Your link gives the impression that most low back pain is caused by spinal issues, which is false. "To a hammer, every problem is a nail."

The article addresses disc disease as a cause of chronic back pain. Which is true. It is either the primary cause, or a major contributing factor.

But getting back on topic, my original post was in response to the assertion that the human skeleton was ideally designed for bipedal posture. My point is that it wasn't designed, it evolved. And it evolved for an organism with a life span of 30-40 years. It works fine in that context. But it's not ideal when life spans are double that or more. I would think that an omniscient designer would have realized that would occur and made our vertebral columns more durable.

 

[jayem]

We walk like God.

That's one reason we share His image.
The human mind is a much bigger drawback than the human spine.

Evolution sucks in developing the human mind:

Look, I get the god of the gaps argument. You can't comprehend how the variety and complex functionality of life can result from purely natural physio-chemical processes. But people have always made up supernatural explanations for what they couldn't understand. I'm sure 300 years ago, there was no conception of how inheritance is transmitted by DNA. No one would have imagined that a DNA mutation that substitutes a single amino acid in a protein regulating skeletal growth, would result in the most common form of dwarfism. You're entitled to believe what ever you like. But neither you, nor me, nor anyone has any idea of all that we may learn 300 years from now.

 

[dad]

Which 'flood epoch' was this, and where is the evidence for it?

You are in no position to confirm or deny what the patriarchs experienced.

How would having a flood cause 'stuff' to end up elsewhere in the solar system?

Walt Brown suggested that the explosive power or water from the inner earth in fountains of the deep would have more than sufficient ability to have left the earth area. He was using normal physics also, and it is likely that it was actually a different nature at the time. Then, we should look at the possibility that the great wind at the last stage of the flood, (once again all in that former nature) may have taken some water (therefore possibly organic matter) was taken away from earth. In case you are not aware, the flood water did come from above in the sky, and likely was from beyond the universe universe. (carried here by portals in space opening up called windows of heaven)

None of which science is able to cover. So do not try to limit creation, and the flood and origin issues to the little scope of what modern, present nature science deals with. They operate in a small shallow pool of knowledge. When God passed out the smarts, He passed them by.

Trying to fabricate/model a past based on the present nature and the belief system of modern godless science is like trying to fit the milky way into your fishbowl. Complete woo.

 

[dad]

No that is wrong.

Science doesnt deal with god(s) at all.

Yes. They do, but they don't know it.

 

[Brightmoon]

Scientific 'facts' are a pretty small part of mankind's overall beliefs. There are much bigger questions, such as if I am an average size man why can't I buy average size clothing? I am 1/4 inch taller than average but cannot buy pants that fit. My inseam size, 31 inches, is not available in most casual pants sizes. I would like to see the 'science' that went into the decision to eliminate the 'average' inseam length from casual and work pants, leaving us average guys with pants that are too short or too long. Don't even get me started on shirts.

I know this is off topic but back in the late 60s women used to wear men’s jeans. I used to get the 27 in waist with the 34 in inseam .they used to just skim my ankles Now this is something I could never figure out . Why guys who were taller than I was wore shorter inseams . If you’re the average guy you’re about 5ft 8 min . Im shorter than that at 5 ft 5 1/2 inches.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I know this is off topic but back in the late 60s women used to wear men’s jeans. I used to get the 27 in waist with the 34 in inseam .they used to just skim my ankles Now this is something I could never figure out . Why guys who were taller than I was wore shorter inseams . If you’re the average guy you’re about 5ft 8 min . Im shorter than that at 5 ft 5 1/2 inches.

I'm 5 ft 9 3/4 inches tall, waist 32, inseam 31. Balanced proportion between upper and lower body. Average American men are 5 ft 9 1/2 inches tall. Your measurements are extremely 'short waisted'.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The article addresses disc disease as a cause of chronic back pain. Which is true. It is either the primary cause, or a major contributing factor.

But getting back on topic, my original post was in response to the assertion that the human skeleton was ideally designed for bipedal posture. My point is that it wasn't designed, it evolved. And it evolved for an organism with a life span of 30-40 years. It works fine in that context. But it's not ideal when life spans are double that or more. I would think that an omniscient designer would have realized that would occur and made our vertebral columns more durable.

It is man's nature to abuse everything he gets his hands on, including his back.

(On a side note, Wisconsin is renowned as a beautiful state. However the State is allowing a huge power line project to ruin the scenery along hundreds of miles of Interstate 90/94. They had the opportunity to be a leader in underground power transmission but chose the 'quick and dirty' solution instead. The power line is a monstrosity of enormous proportions. It angers me whenever I drive it.)

The last biblical measure of (average) longevity was 70 years, or 80 'if by strength'. I'm 78 and spent the last two afternoons cutting firewood from a large fallen oak tree. The 20 or so 'blocks' that I lifted and carried from that tree weigh 60-70 pounds each. No back problems, but my legs were a bit sore this morning.

I'm certain that I'll die of something long before my back goes out.

 

[Christie insb]

And, as I was writing, yet another 'god of the gaps' argument, just to prove my point! You might as well credit it all to the flying spaghetti monster. There is as much evidence of that as there is of any god(s).

But FSM doesn't touch our hearts and care about us. This is why I am tired of these debates. The evidence only means anything by faith. Of course going around finding questions science hasn't answered and saying, "See? That shows there is a God" will probably be overtaken by our scientific knowledge in the near future. This isn't proof that there is a God. We could know everything but the main point of life is love, not knowledge.
My daughter has a scientist boyfriend. Hearing him talk with fascination and wonder about his work, to me, may show more reverence to God than the way we want God to fit in the little boxes we have made for Him