Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

[BNR32FAN]

That is old testament.

Be Blessed

Wow so your saying that Jesus’ two commandments no longer stand?

 

[EternallyKeptByJesus]

Wow so your saying that Jesus’ two commandments no longer stand?

 

[EternallyKeptByJesus]

Wow so your saying that Jesus’ two commandments no longer stand?

Jesus two commands are those given in the new covenant. That is after Jesus rose from the dead. Those two commandments are to believe in Jesus and to love one another. That is it.

Be Blessed.

 

[BNR32FAN]

All of this is taken out of context or you used bad translations for your interpretations. If you want to know the truth do a search for eternal security and problem passages it will clear up your misconceptions.

The biggest problem with your concepts is simple. If you was correct than salvation would be of works, which is totally false.

I will address one verse that you used a bad translation for. Matthew 18:3 does not say turn from sin. Not in the original language.

Follow this link for the greek interpretation of that verse - Matthew 18:3 Interlinear: and said, 'Verily I say to you, if ye may not be turned and become as the children, ye may not enter into the reign of the heavens;

Why only one verse, simple, I am not going to get that involved in debating the false doctrine of insecure salvation. The division between the true Gospel and the false gospel of insecure salvation is are you saved by faith or works. Just that simple.

A thorough search and research into all those verses would clearly show that they are not referring to true born again believers

Be Blessed.

And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

converted


G4762


Lemma:

στρέφω


Transliteration:

stréphō


Pronounce:

stref'-o


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to turn, turn around

2) to turn one's self (i.e. to turn the back to one a) of one who no longer cares for another) b) metaph. to turn one's self from one's course of conduct, i.e. to change one's mind


Grammar:

strengthened from the base of τροπή; to twist, i.e. turn quite around or reverse (literally or figuratively):--convert, turn (again, back again, self, self about).


Occurrences in Bible:

18


Occurrences in Verses:

18


KJV usage:

turn (11x), turn (one's) self (2x), turn (one) (1x), turn again (1x), turn back again (1x), turn (one) about (1x), be converted (1x), vr turn (1x).

Jesus was teaching His apostles about being humble and resisting temptation and in doing this he makes it pretty apparent that obedience is required to enter the kingdom of God. Why didn’t the goats get into heaven in the sheep and goats parable? How many parables does Jesus have to give about trees that don’t produce fruit get chopped down and thrown into the fire? Or the parables about the unfaithful servants who are cast out into darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth? Who are these “servants of their master” if they are not believers of God? Is everything Jesus ever said only to the Jews?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Jesus two commands are those given in the new covenant. That is after Jesus rose from the dead. Those two commandments are to believe in Jesus and to love one another. That is it.

Be Blessed.

Verse please?

 

[Oldmantook]

I am amazed at how anyone can think salvation is insecure. God made it so clear its all about what Jesus did for us and not our works. The gospels make this so clear as well as Romans where God contrast the difference between those who are trying to earn their way into heaven by doing works or good deeds or some form of obedience as apposed to faith in the God who justifies the ungodly.

Furthermore there are so many examples that make it clear that salvation is secure. We are predestined not to be saved but to become like Jesus. Salvation is eternal, which if you lost it, then God lied. Then there is the fact that we are already buried and raised with Christ. We are already a new creation now, not later if we continue doing good. The fact that God speaks of circumcision of the heart. Circumcision can not be undone, so neither can salvation.

One a person is saved they are a child of God. The concept when that was written had no concept of the idea of a someone who is a child becoming not a child. Even now the concept is not possible. Even if you don't like your parents you can never change the fact that you will always be the child of your parents.

So, there for the secure salvationist their god is more than willing to take their child that they claim to love to no end and throw them into a horrible burning fire that will never end. I don't know any normal or healthy parent that would ever throw their child into a fire for punishment. So if that is god, then his creation is better the god himself, and that god needs to learn what basic love is.

If Jesus died on the cross and suffered so he can guilt us and make us feel bad, then you can keep it. I have enough without that level of guilt.

But praise God, the true God freely forgives, justifies the ungodly, saves murders, rapist, incest people, adulters, drunkards, those who lived their whole life living for self and more. These categories are people in the Bible. The true God, loves us freely and at a level we could never fully imagine this side of eternity.

No matter what we do, we are always forgiven, loved and accepted. The insecure condemning god makes me want to live in sin and be as far away from him as possible. The unconditional loving God, makes me want to run to Him and when I sin, to run to Him all the more.

Love is a far better motivation to live right than threats of beatings and the worst torment ever, that being hell. People that love to preach insecure salvation do so because they are full of so much extreme pride because they think themselves perfect or close to it. Those who know salvation is secure realize that their is nothing in them that could ever save them or keep their salvation so they run to love and the God who freely justifies them.

Be Blessed.

A simple question which deserves a simple answer. If YOU took the mark of the beast, would YOU still be eternally secure? Yes or No? Others may chime in also.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Jesus two commands are those given in the new covenant. That is after Jesus rose from the dead. Those two commandments are to believe in Jesus and to love one another. That is it.

Be Blessed.

Can the gateway to heaven get any wider?

 

[EternallyKeptByJesus]

And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

converted


G4762


Lemma:

στρέφω


Transliteration:

stréphō


Pronounce:

stref'-o


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to turn, turn around

2) to turn one's self (i.e. to turn the back to one a) of one who no longer cares for another) b) metaph. to turn one's self from one's course of conduct, i.e. to change one's mind


Grammar:

strengthened from the base of τροπή; to twist, i.e. turn quite around or reverse (literally or figuratively):--convert, turn (again, back again, self, self about).


Occurrences in Bible:

18


Occurrences in Verses:

18


KJV usage:

turn (11x), turn (one's) self (2x), turn (one) (1x), turn again (1x), turn back again (1x), turn (one) about (1x), be converted (1x), vr turn (1x).

Jesus was teaching His apostles about being humble and resisting temptation and in doing this he makes it pretty apparent that obedience is required to enter the kingdom of God. Why didn’t the goats get into heaven in the sheep and goats parable? How many parables does Jesus have to give about trees that don’t produce fruit get chopped down and thrown into the fire? Or the parables about the unfaithful servants who are cast out into darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth? Who are these “servants of their master” if they are not believers of God? Is everything Jesus ever said only to the Jews?

The greek word turn can be literal or figurative. To make it literal turning from sin makes salvation a work which is totally false. And every time we are called to repent, the greek word for repentance means change of mind not actions.

Since you want to throw in all that rubbish about being cast into hell, fear to help boost your false arguments will no longer respond to your postings.

I almost responded rather negative and went back in and edited my comment to someone. If you can't be civil then I will not be dragged into fear mongering and arguing.

Be Blessed

 

[EternallyKeptByJesus]

Can the gateway to heaven get any wider?

Narrow is the way was under the old testament not the new. In the book of revelations its clear that the number of believers are extremely numerous. Therefore, the gate has become wide.

Be Blessed

 

[EternallyKeptByJesus]

Verse please?

1Jn 3:23 This is what God commands: that we believe in his Son Jesus Christ, and that we love each other as he commanded.

Be Blessed

 

[BNR32FAN]

The greek word turn can be literal or figurative. To make it literal turning from sin makes salvation a work which is totally false. And every time we are called to repent, the greek word for repentance means change of mind not actions.

Since you want to throw in all that rubbish about being cast into hell, fear to help boost your false arguments will no longer respond to your postings.

I almost responded rather negative and went back in and edited my comment to someone. If you can't be civil then I will not be dragged into fear mongering and arguing.

Be Blessed

No it absolutely does not just because we are not saved by works doesn’t mean that we don’t have to do works. If we have a true faith we will be compelled by the Holy Spirit to do good works our works or evidence of the Holy Spirit working through us.

 

[EternallyKeptByJesus]

No it absolutely does not just because we are not saved by works doesn’t mean that we don’t have to do works. If we have a true faith we will be compelled by the Holy Spirit to do good works our works or evidence of the Holy Spirit working through us.

That reasoning is not supported in the Bible and it turns salvation into a work.

Be Blessed

 

[Doug Melven]

Sure no one will be perfect but that doesn’t mean that they don’t need to make any attempt to follow God’s Word.

So you think as long as we are trying, God will accept us?
John 14:6, John 3:16, Romans 10:13, Romans 11:6
Those verses would say otherwise. Our best is filthy rags Isaiah 64:6
We were not made righteous by keeping the law. God made us righteous through Jesus Christ.
Breaking the law won't undo what God did.
If it did, that would mean God lied when He said,
For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Hebrews 8:12
Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Wow so your saying that Jesus’ two commandments no longer stand?

I would definitely say that. The law is not in effect for believers.
Christ is the end of the law for righteousness. Romans 10:4
The law is not made for a righteous man but for the lawless and disobedient 1 Timothy 1:8-9

 

[☦Marius☦]

Mathew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

If free will is to exist, then the ability to lose one's salvation is a must. Can you imagine that at some point if a person was to completely reject God, curse him, and want to be apart- that he would still be forced into salvation? NO! That very concept is horrible.

James 2:14-26
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

Faith cannot survive without works. Faith is dead without works. Faith is what saves. Without an active faith we are no longer saved. Look at the requirements given in Romans for salvation:

If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

The declaration of "Jesus is Lord" is a constant declaration. In Bible times an oath of fealty to a Lord was an agreement to obey that Lord's laws. To disobey Christ is to deny him as Lord. This is something that must constantly be done, and when you fail you must repent and do it again.

So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

 

[☦Marius☦]

We were created in God's image.

Christ died to firstly blot out our previous transgressions and be the atoning sacrifice for the world.

He also died to show that to follow Christ is to restore the image of God in man.

To grow closer to Christ in action and mind is to become more like God, not in his eternal essence, but in his nature. This is why communion is so important, it unites us with Christ's nature, slowly changing us in love.

Becoming Christ like is a day to day effort, and it is not necessarily one that stops after death.

We were created to commune with God, for those of us who want, we will die communing with God, slowly changing to be more like him until the last judgement.

 

[Cement]

I read that Moses wanted to be blotted out from the Book of Life if only Israel would not perish but I don’t think he meant the Book which has the all of the people whom God would save. He probably referred to the Book of the living because no one no matter how holy they are would ever want to perish in eternity for another.

 

[BNR32FAN]

So you think as long as we are trying, God will accept us?
John 14:6, John 3:16, Romans 10:13, Romans 11:6
Those verses would say otherwise. Our best is filthy rags Isaiah 64:6
We were not made righteous by keeping the law. God made us righteous through Jesus Christ.
Breaking the law won't undo what God did.
If it did, that would mean God lied when He said,
For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Hebrews 8:12
Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

I would definitely say that. The law is not in effect for believers.
Christ is the end of the law for righteousness. Romans 10:4
The law is not made for a righteous man but for the lawless and disobedient 1 Timothy 1:8-9

I’m not talking about the law I’m talking about loving God with all your heart, soul, and mind and loving others as Jesus loves us. If you think those commandments are no longer in effect you are completely blind. Do you even know the definition of the word Christian? It means Christ like. If you don’t think that Jesus loves God with all His heart, soul, and mind and loves others then you don’t know anything about Jesus my friend. The problem with this debate is everyone always twists faith with works to the extreme instead of understanding that it is not the works that save us it is the faith that produces works that saves us. That is a genuine faith. Not the kind of faith where someone says I’m a believer I have faith I’m born again then keeps on living the same sinful life they always have. Doesn’t care about anyone but themselves. See’s homeless people on the side of the road and says GET A JOB!! That’s the kind of fake faith that will not save anyone. A true believer with true faith that is truly born again hates sin. He despises it and he has convictions about even the little things like calling in sick to work and lying to his boss because he’s too tired to wake up or getting back more change than he was supposed to and putting it in his pocket without saying anything. Sure he could get away with it and nobody would ever know but he would know and he knows God knows. A true believer gives homeless people money not so he can be saved but because he feels true compassion for that person and wishes he could do more. It’s all about love. Love for God and love for others. Not just saying I believe and doing nothing. Like I said before the gate to heaven can’t get much wider than only believing and doing nothing.

 

[BNR32FAN]

If our salvation is up to us to keep, then none of us will ever keep our salvation.
Because nobody can love God with all there heart, soul, mind and strength 24/7/365 for however long they will live.
Nobody does every single act by faith. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
Thank God He doesn't remember our sins and He doesn't hold them against us or deal with us according to our sins.
Psalms 103:10 He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.
103:11 For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.
103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

God knows we can never be perfect that’s why Jesus died on the cross. There is a difference between being a slave to sin and stumbling in sin. Being a slave to sin means you willingly indulge in sin. You like to sin and you keep doing it repeatedly. Stumbling in sin means you made a mistake but you don’t keep doing it. You don't indulge in sin. You hate it and you refrain from it. Your not born again if your still living the same life you had before you were baptized.

 

[dqhall]

I am amazed at how anyone can think salvation is insecure. God made it so clear its all about what Jesus did for us and not our works. The gospels make this so clear as well as Romans where God contrast the difference between those who are trying to earn their way into heaven by doing works or good deeds or some form of obedience as apposed to faith in the God who justifies the ungodly.

Furthermore there are so many examples that make it clear that salvation is secure. We are predestined not to be saved but to become like Jesus. Salvation is eternal, which if you lost it, then God lied. Then there is the fact that we are already buried and raised with Christ. We are already a new creation now, not later if we continue doing good. The fact that God speaks of circumcision of the heart. Circumcision can not be undone, so neither can salvation.

One a person is saved they are a child of God. The concept when that was written had no concept of the idea of a someone who is a child becoming not a child. Even now the concept is not possible. Even if you don't like your parents you can never change the fact that you will always be the child of your parents.

So, there for the secure salvationist their god is more than willing to take their child that they claim to love to no end and throw them into a horrible burning fire that will never end. I don't know any normal or healthy parent that would ever throw their child into a fire for punishment. So if that is god, then his creation is better the god himself, and that god needs to learn what basic love is.

If Jesus died on the cross and suffered so he can guilt us and make us feel bad, then you can keep it. I have enough without that level of guilt.

But praise God, the true God freely forgives, justifies the ungodly, saves murders, rapist, incest people, adulters, drunkards, those who lived their whole life living for self and more. These categories are people in the Bible. The true God, loves us freely and at a level we could never fully imagine this side of eternity.

No matter what we do, we are always forgiven, loved and accepted. The insecure condemning god makes me want to live in sin and be as far away from him as possible. The unconditional loving God, makes me want to run to Him and when I sin, to run to Him all the more.

Love is a far better motivation to live right than threats of beatings and the worst torment ever, that being hell. People that love to preach insecure salvation do so because they are full of so much extreme pride because they think themselves perfect or close to it. Those who know salvation is secure realize that their is nothing in them that could ever save them or keep their salvation so they run to love and the God who freely justifies them.

Be Blessed.

It is true there are repentant prostitutes, thieves and soldiers. Salvation is contingent on good behavior.

Matthew 7:13 (WEB)
13 “Enter in by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter in by it. 14 How narrow is the gate, and restricted is the way that leads to life! Few are those who find it."

Matthew 7:21 (WEB) "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

Matthew 10:42 (WEB) "Whoever gives one of these little ones just a cup of cold water to drink in the name of a disciple, most certainly I tell you he will in no way lose his reward."

 

[BNR32FAN]

I am amazed at how anyone can think salvation is insecure. God made it so clear its all about what Jesus did for us and not our works. The gospels make this so clear as well as Romans where God contrast the difference between those who are trying to earn their way into heaven by doing works or good deeds or some form of obedience as apposed to faith in the God who justifies the ungodly.

Furthermore there are so many examples that make it clear that salvation is secure. We are predestined not to be saved but to become like Jesus. Salvation is eternal, which if you lost it, then God lied. Then there is the fact that we are already buried and raised with Christ. We are already a new creation now, not later if we continue doing good. The fact that God speaks of circumcision of the heart. Circumcision can not be undone, so neither can salvation.

One a person is saved they are a child of God. The concept when that was written had no concept of the idea of a someone who is a child becoming not a child. Even now the concept is not possible. Even if you don't like your parents you can never change the fact that you will always be the child of your parents.

So, there for the secure salvationist their god is more than willing to take their child that they claim to love to no end and throw them into a horrible burning fire that will never end. I don't know any normal or healthy parent that would ever throw their child into a fire for punishment. So if that is god, then his creation is better the god himself, and that god needs to learn what basic love is.

If Jesus died on the cross and suffered so he can guilt us and make us feel bad, then you can keep it. I have enough without that level of guilt.

But praise God, the true God freely forgives, justifies the ungodly, saves murders, rapist, incest people, adulters, drunkards, those who lived their whole life living for self and more. These categories are people in the Bible. The true God, loves us freely and at a level we could never fully imagine this side of eternity.

No matter what we do, we are always forgiven, loved and accepted. The insecure condemning god makes me want to live in sin and be as far away from him as possible. The unconditional loving God, makes me want to run to Him and when I sin, to run to Him all the more.

Love is a far better motivation to live right than threats of beatings and the worst torment ever, that being hell. People that love to preach insecure salvation do so because they are full of so much extreme pride because they think themselves perfect or close to it. Those who know salvation is secure realize that their is nothing in them that could ever save them or keep their salvation so they run to love and the God who freely justifies them.

Be Blessed.

Please provide the scriptures to support eternal security.