• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Your Thoughts on Creation & Evolution

Status
Not open for further replies.

inquiring mind

and a discerning heart
Site Supporter
Dec 31, 2016
7,221
3,311
U.S.
✟697,694.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I know the “Gap Theory” has been discussed before, but so has everything else. I’m wondering if anyone else here considers that possibility to account for both the evidence of some form of “evolution” left over from a pre-Adamic world, and the “Creation” of an Adamic world. I find that idea interesting. What would be the “whys” and “why nots” of it? It has been popular in the past... why was it sort of dropped as a possible explanation... too much of a headache to think about probably.
 
Upvote 0

tas8831

Well-Known Member
May 5, 2017
5,611
3,999
56
Northeast
✟101,040.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Exactly. Which makes it all the more relevant that nobody has ever come up with either a demonstrable "kind barrier" in nature, nor a rigorous taxonomic system based on it.

Have you heard of Baraminology?

It is/was a branch of 'creation science' that sought to do just that - they even used ancient Hebrew words to distinguish it from real systematics/taxonomy (hence the 'Bara' thing).

They used the same data and the same analytical techniques that systematists do, and they would generally get the same results*. But they would place bible-based constraints on the results. So, for example, they would set out to show that humans are not related to other primates and when an objective analysis did not produce this conclusion, they just fell back on what they called the "Scriptural Criterion" to erase the results. It is something to see. I have several of this group's 'publications' from the 1990s. They changed their name and are essentially defunct now as far as I can tell. perhaps for the obvious reasons. Sternberg used to pal around with this group. But he wasn't a creationist, we must remember.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Astrophile
Upvote 0

Shemjaza

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Apr 17, 2006
6,458
3,994
47
✟1,112,508.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
AU-Greens
I know the “Gap Theory” has been discussed before, but so has everything else. I’m wondering if anyone else here considers that possibility to account for both the evidence of some form of “evolution” left over from a pre-Adamic world, and the “Creation” of an Adamic world. I find that idea interesting. What would be the “whys” and “why nots” of it? It has been popular in the past... why was it sort of dropped as a possible explanation... too much of a headache to think about probably.
I think the problem is that it still requires the genetic bottle necks in all species (particularly humans if we are supposed to be descended from a literal Adam and Eve).

I think it's less popular because if you are a person of faith and accept scientific findings from biology and geology you end up with evolution, you end up a Theological Evolutionist. But if you are willing to ignore scientific conclusions to maintain a literal Adam and Eve, why bother accepting deep time at all, when you can just become a Young Earth Creationist?
 
Upvote 0

xianghua

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2017
5,215
555
44
tel aviv
✟119,055.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Single
If we found all species (past and present) mixed up with no apparent order or evolutionary patterns going back to the earliest geological ages, then yes, our understanding of the history of life on Earth would need to be completely re-written.

and evolution still be just fine.
 
Upvote 0

xianghua

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2017
5,215
555
44
tel aviv
✟119,055.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Single
"Kind" isn't a real thing (per biology). Nor has anyone ever demonstrated the existence of any biological barriers related to such a thing.
why not? a ic system can be such a barrier. or even a deisgned trait.
 
Upvote 0

xianghua

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2017
5,215
555
44
tel aviv
✟119,055.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Single
Yes, it is designed, and I'm pretty sure that it was designed by human beings and made in a terrestrial factory. In other words, the picture is a fake; it shows an object (perhaps something like a lampshade) thrown into the air, not an extra-terrestrial spacecraft.
thanks. now, can you tell me what was the main trait in that structure that prove you it was designed?
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,626
82
St Charles, IL
✟347,280.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
thanks. now, can you tell me what was the main trait in that structure that prove you it was designed?
Nothing in the structure of the object. You can't conclude design from structure in that way for any object. What "proves" design is that the picture is known to be a fake.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

xianghua

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2017
5,215
555
44
tel aviv
✟119,055.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Single
So you say.

You have an assertion based on something that doesn't exist. You have no evidence.

yes i have. do you agree that from a materialistic perspective, a penguin can be consider as a self replicating organic robot? if no why not?
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,626
82
St Charles, IL
✟347,280.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
yes i have. do you agree that from a materialistic perspective, a penguin can be consider as a self replicating organic robot? if no why not?
So what? A penguin is still a naturally occurring object so you can't tell if it was designed.
 
Upvote 0

inquiring mind

and a discerning heart
Site Supporter
Dec 31, 2016
7,221
3,311
U.S.
✟697,694.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I think the problem is that it still requires the genetic bottle necks in all species (particularly humans if we are supposed to be descended from a literal Adam and Eve).
If you accept a Gap right before Adam, a period in which the Gap itself was the “formless, empty, and dark;” you accept that the Gap separates Adamic man from all the pre-Gap evolution that appears to be verified; you accept that the earth still had a foundation to hold the water spoken of in Genesis 1:2, and the foundation still held all the fossils and layers from the pre-Adamic world... wouldn’t that be a possibility?

I think it's less popular because if you are a person of faith and accept scientific findings from biology and geology you end up with evolution, you end up a Theological Evolutionist.
You could be accepting some form of God's evolution process up to the Gap.

But if you are willing to ignore scientific conclusions to maintain a literal Adam and Eve, why bother accepting deep time at all, when you can just become a Young Earth Creationist?
But, you’re not completely ignoring scientific conclusions up to the Gap.
 
Upvote 0

Aman777

Christian
Jan 26, 2013
10,351
584
✟30,043.00
Faith
Baptist
I think the problem is that it still requires the genetic bottle necks in all species (particularly humans if we are supposed to be descended from a literal Adam and Eve).

Not so, since A&E were made physically on another world and Humans (Adam's descendants) arrived on our planet only 11k years ago. Map: Fertile Cresent, 9000 to 4500 BCE Noah's grandsons married and produced children with the prehistoric people (sons of God) who had been on Earth for millions of years before the Ark arrived. Gen 6:4
 
Upvote 0

Brightmoon

Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.
Mar 2, 2018
6,297
5,539
NYC
✟166,950.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Episcopalian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
UOTE="xianghua, post: 72579967, member: 395317"]why such a [ bunnies in the Precambrian] fossil will falsify evolution? we can claim that that fossil somehow get into the wrong layer or something. evolution cant be falsify even in this case. so no.

Because rabbits are a modern species . Mammals didn’t even exist in the Precambrian. Fish ( mammals‘ distant ancestors) didn’t even exist then . When I said bunnies in the Precambrian i specifically did not mean an out of place fossil . I meant having a rabbit species that lived and died during the Precambrian. This would falsify evolution
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Astrophile
Upvote 0

Brightmoon

Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.
Mar 2, 2018
6,297
5,539
NYC
✟166,950.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Episcopalian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
off course i talking about population and not about individual. so according to evolution a population of cats can evolve into something that isnt a cat after millions of years. right?
yes
 
Upvote 0

Astrophile

Newbie
Aug 30, 2013
2,338
1,559
77
England
✟256,526.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Widowed
thanks. now, can you tell me what was the main trait in that structure that prove you it was designed?
It resembles things that are made by human beings, such as lampshades, frisbees and hats,and it doesn't resemble any sort of flying animal. Therefore I conclude that it was designed and made by humans.
 
Upvote 0

Shemjaza

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Apr 17, 2006
6,458
3,994
47
✟1,112,508.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
AU-Greens
and evolution still be just fine.
That isn't true.

You can't just say that evolution can explain something impossible without explaining yourself.
kind just mean a creature with unique combination of traits basically.
That's nonsense.

That description could apply to every single species.

Actually that could apply to every individual.

why not? a ic system can be such a barrier. or even a deisgned trait.
Except the problem is that IC systems have never been shown to be a barrier. Possible pathways have always been shown.

ID have never demonstrated an IC that actually couldn't be formed from changing in purpose and scaffolding.

yes i have. do you agree that from a materialistic perspective, a penguin can be consider as a self replicating organic robot? if no why not?

No. Robots are constructed and are not organic.

I think another name would be necessary for an organic machine. Maybe synthetic life.

But the point is origin.
If you accept a Gap right before Adam, a period in which the Gap itself was the “formless, empty, and dark;” you accept that the Gap separates Adamic man from all the pre-Gap evolution that appears to be verified; you accept that the earth still had a foundation to hold the water spoken of in Genesis 1:2, and the foundation still held all the fossils and layers from the pre-Adamic world... wouldn’t that be a possibility?
That's alm well and good for stuff like fossils and radiometric data for ancient reminants.

But it doesn't do anything for the evidence of living creatures and humans. Our genes are too diverse to be descended from a single couple around 10 thousand years ago. There are too many developed civilisations that predate most ideas about the date of the Garden of Eden.

You could be accepting some form of God's evolution process up to the Gap.


But, you’re not completely ignoring scientific conclusions up to the Gap.

Not completely, no. But you do have to ignore a whole lot.

I suspect to justify the lack of genetic evidence for the re-creation of Gap theory, you end up having to invoke most of the YEC hand waves and miracles anyway.

Not so, since A&E were made physically on another world and Humans (Adam's descendants) arrived on our planet only 11k years ago. Map: Fertile Cresent, 9000 to 4500 BCE Noah's grandsons married and produced children with the prehistoric people (sons of God) who had been on Earth for millions of years before the Ark arrived. Gen 6:4
The problem with this idea is that you think the prehistoric evolved humans were genetically different to the created humans of Earth 1.

If we all could trace our ancestry to one family in the middle East 11 thousand years ago, then the world be evidence for it in our genes.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,626
82
St Charles, IL
✟347,280.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
However, Xianghua, you must keep in mind that Astrophile's conclusion can only be tentative, pending a closer examination of the object. If it turns out to be a natural object, then no conclusion about its design can be drawn. Mere resemblance to a designed object is not, in itself, evidence of design.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Brightmoon

Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.
Mar 2, 2018
6,297
5,539
NYC
✟166,950.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Episcopalian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
off course i talking about population and not about individual. so according to evolution a population of cats can evolve into something that isnt a cat after millions of years. right?
Yes ,after all, felids ( cat ancestors) evolved from miacids
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.