Are Protestants dead?

[mark kennedy]

But just as the Spirit bears witness with our spirits that we are the sons of God, the Spirit bears witness that Hebrews and Revelation are from the Holy Spirit.

And as far as many Christians are concerned, the internal testimony of Hebrews confirms that Paul wrote that epistle, while there is absolutely no question about who wrote Revelation.

The title of Hebrews in the original KJV was "The epistle of Paul the apostle to the Hebrews". The translators would have had sufficient reason to give it that title, although you won't see it in the KJB any more.

While the book of Hebrews is profoundly Pauline it couldn't have been written by Paul. I'm thinking Barnabas because it's in a Levitical format, it makes sense a Levite wouldn't put his name on it.

 

[Micah888]

While the book of Hebrews is profoundly Pauline it couldn't have been written by Paul. I'm thinking Barnabas because it's in a Levitical format, it makes sense a Levite wouldn't put his name on it.

It is not likely that Barnabas would have written this:

18 Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly.

19 But I beseech you the rather to do this, that I may be restored to you the sooner....

22 And I beseech you, brethren, suffer the word of exhortation: for I have written a letter unto you in few words.

23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty; with whom, if he come shortly, I will see you.

24 Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.

25 Grace be with you all. Amen. (Written to the Hebrews from Italy, by Timothy.)

 

[Strong in Him]

The very fact that Paul chose on his own to confine to Gentiles shows that he wanted to avoid Jews who were knowledgeable in Torah. So he started please-all-propaganda with his sugar coated goodies to push his agenda with ignorant Gentiles deviating from the sublime essence of the teaching of the Master.

Paul was once a Pharisee and an expert in Jewish law. So this argument is nonsense - just like most of your others.

Paul was also converted by, and lived and died for, Jesus.

 

[mark kennedy]

It is not likely that Barnabas would have written this:

18 Pray for us: for we trust we have a good conscience, in all things willing to live honestly.

19 But I beseech you the rather to do this, that I may be restored to you the sooner....

22 And I beseech you, brethren, suffer the word of exhortation: for I have written a letter unto you in few words.

23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty; with whom, if he come shortly, I will see you.

24 Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.

25 Grace be with you all. Amen. (Written to the Hebrews from Italy, by Timothy.)

Well that one is certainly up for grabs but Barnabas was a Levite, so was John Mark as a matter of fact. We have the New Testament because they were preserved much the same way the OT was. I realize Timothy was well acquainted with the Scriptures but the style of writing is unique for the New Testament. The writer of Hebrews was writing in the style of an oral tradition and it's the most complicated Greek in the New Testament. It looks Levitical to me and the most probable candidate in my limited view is Barnabas.

 

[Righttruth]

Luther had some strange ideas about some of the books of the NT (as well as other strange ideas). But just because some (or many) come up with false teachings based on the writings of Paul does not have a bearing on which books belong in the NT. Peter -- writing by divine inspiration -- put all of Paul's epistles alongside the Hebrew Scriptures and regarded them as the Word of God. And so do all Bible-believing Christians.

No, Peter never did equate Paul's with Scripture. He also said that Paul wrote according to his wisdom. He never considered Paul as an apostle. Scripture ended with the OT. Now it is only writings and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Righttruth]

That's not a contradiction, just a bogus cross reference. James and Paul are talking about the exact same thing in James 2 and 1 Cor. 11. The rich are mistreating the poor in the love feasts that went with the communion at the time. Paul says some of you are sick and some of you sleep, James even says is this even saving faith. Do you ever read these passages before you start jumping to conclusions? Everyone was on the same page, at the Council of Jerusalem and there was never a problem between James, Peter and Paul. Read those passages in context, they are saying the exact same thing.

Ask yourself a simple question, what are the works James is referring to in James 2, then read 1 Corinthians 11 in it's natural context and compare. It's really that simple.

Relating James 2 to 1 Corinthians 11 is absurd since they are never in common ground for comparison!

 

[Righttruth]

There's no need to misrepresent what Peter said regarding Paul's epistles.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

What were "the other Scriptures"? Everything in the Hebrew Tanakh (the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms). What we call "the Old Testament".

What does the word "other" imply? That the "first" Scriptures he is talking about are "all his epistles". All of Paul's epistles are being compared to, and equated with, the other Scriptures.

So is over half of our New Testament also the Word of God? Absolutely.

The "wisdom" mentioned by Peter should be taken to mean the wisdom given to Paul under the total control of the Holy Spirit so that what he was writing would be inerrant and infallible.

There are many today who claim for their own warped purposes in some cases Paul was merely expressing his personal opinions, therefore Christians can blithely disregard them. That is utter nonsense.

It can also be proved logically that Paul's letters are not Scripture. Scripture ended with the OT. It is now only writings and the Holy Spirit. Paul also added his own advice in many cases, not exactly according to the commandment of the Lord
1 Corinthians 7:
6 But this I say by way of concession, not of command.

 

[Righttruth]

Paul was once a Pharisee and an expert in Jewish law. So this argument is nonsense - just like most of your others.

Paul was also converted by, and lived and died for, Jesus.

Paul was an opportunist. So even after conversion, he claimed to be a Pharisee!

Acts 23
6 But perceiving that one group were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, Paul began crying out in the Council, "Brethren, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees; I am on trial for the hope and resurrection of the dead!"

 

[Micah888]

Scripture ended with the OT.

Only unbelieving Jews would say something like this. They might even go so far as to say Scripture ended with the Torah. But that is not the truth.

 

[Righttruth]

Only unbelieving Jews would say something like this. They might even go so far as to say Scripture ended with the Torah. But that is not the truth.

Torah and all quotes from Jesus from other books definitely form the OT Scripture. Now it is the Holy Spirit.

 

[straykat]

Torah and all quotes from Jesus from other books definitely form the OT Scripture. Now it is the Holy Spirit.

Interesting. You've even outdone the Gnostics. Even when they hung on to their claims of special knowledge (Gnosis), they didn't outright reject many NT writings as scripture.

 

[mark kennedy]

Relating James 2 to 1 Corinthians 11 is absurd since they are never in common ground for comparison!

Yes there is, the rich were depriving the poor and it's explicit in the text, try reading it.

 

[mark kennedy]

No, Peter never did equate Paul's with Scripture. He also said that Paul wrote according to his wisdom. He never considered Paul as an apostle. Scripture ended with the OT. Now it is only writings and the Holy Spirit.

Yes they did, and accepted him as an Apostle to the Gentiles:

For God, who was at work in Peter’s apostleship to the Jews, was also at work in my apostleship to the Gentiles. And recognizing the grace I had been given, James, Cephas, and John — those reputed to be pillars — gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, so that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the Jews. They only asked us to be mindful of the poor, the very thing I was eager to do. (Gal. 2:8-10)​

 

[mark kennedy]

Torah and all quotes from Jesus from other books definitely form the OT Scripture. Now it is the Holy Spirit.

What does that even mean?

 

[mark kennedy]

Paul was an opportunist. So even after conversion, he claimed to be a Pharisee!

Acts 23
6 But perceiving that one group were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, Paul began crying out in the Council, "Brethren, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees; I am on trial for the hope and resurrection of the dead!"

He was a Pharisee, are you just trying to cause division or are you going to actually make a point here?

 

[straykat]

Once I thought this poster could be reached with some common ground, but he isn't even a Christian. Not even an out-in-left field Jim Jones cultist type who just abuses the Bible. He simply doesn't believe in any of the NT! Might as well be arguing with a voodoo priest or some guy reading tea leaves.

 

[mark kennedy]

It can also be proved logically that Paul's letters are not Scripture. Scripture ended with the OT. It is now only writings and the Holy Spirit. Paul also added his own advice in many cases, not exactly according to the commandment of the Lord
1 Corinthians 7:
6 But this I say by way of concession, not of command.

Sometimes, and then sometimes he said this:

Did God’s word originate with you? Or are you the only ones it has reached? If anyone considers himself a prophet or spiritual person, let him acknowledge that what I am writing you is the Lord’s command. But if anyone ignores this, he himself will be ignored. (1 Cor. 14:36-38)​

 

[Micah888]

Torah and all quotes from Jesus from other books definitely form the OT Scripture. Now it is the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit would strongly disagree with your false notion of what is Scripture and what is not.

 

[Strong in Him]

Paul was an opportunist. So even after conversion, he claimed to be a Pharisee!

You don't accept the creed, the Scriptures or the rules of this forum, so you have no authority here. So why should we listen to what you think about Paul?

 

[Righttruth]

Interesting. You've even outdone the Gnostics. Even when they hung on to their claims of special knowledge (Gnosis), they didn't outright reject many NT writings as scripture.

I don't reject any writing. I reject them only when they don't conform to the teaching of Jesus. Of course, the Law has been fulfilled by Jesus. Now, it is not just the letter of the Law, more than that, it is the spirit behind it which is the most difficult part to practice.