Why do People Fight so hard for Their Own Free Will ?

[Micah888]

Well put, sister!

Sorry, its brother. And that is Micah not Michal.

 

[MDC]

Man's free will can never intrude on the sovereignty of God. When Christians say that "God is in absolute control" it means that nothing that men do can catch Him by surprise or override His eternal plans and purposes. His divine foreknowledge knows the end of all things from the beginning.

Also the universe and all its operations are strictly within God's control. At the same time He has embedded natural , moral, and spiritual laws into the universe, and all things must be regulated by those laws.

By the same token every sin and evil deed is strictly attributable to human beings (or evil angels and demons), who are then held accountable by God.

God has declared the end from the beginning according to His council and will. Isaiah 46. Foreknowledge is nothing more than His will and purposes that are decreed being known. So again, how does man have “free” will outside Gods eternal plans and purposes?

 

[zoidar]

Sorry, its brother. And that is Micah not Michal.

Then, well put, brother!

God has declared the end from the beginning according to His council and will. Isaiah 46. Foreknowledge is nothing more than His will and purposes that are decreed being known. So again, how does man have “free” will outside Gods eternal plans and purposes?

Micah just told you ...

 

[MDC]

Then, well put, brother!



Micah just told you ...

No he didn’t. All that was said is that God knows the end from the beginning. Are mans decisions and choices in life governed and moved by the decrees of God?

 

[John tower]

His will is that "everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life", John 6:40. Not only does that imply that some will not look to the Son and have eternal life, but Jesus says as much; when he talks about people perishing.



It's not impossible to have own own will at all.
Look at the world around us and you will see that many, many people have their own will. They choose to have nothing to do with God.
Even after we become Christians, our will is still our own. Ideally, we will give it to God and it will be in line with his will - that's why Scripture tells us to submit to God. If we had no will and were incapable of doing anything except what God told us to do, we would not need to pray for guidance or ask for help in making decisions. We would not be able to sin - God doesn't want us to sin, but to be perfect, and if we had no will at all, we couldn't be tempted or do wrong. We wouldn't be tempted by pride and would submit to God in everything.

That is not the case, and is not what is described in Scripture either.
Joshua told the nation to CHOOSE who they were going to serve.
Jonah was given a command from God, and chose to run away.
On one of his missionary journies, Paul said that God "opened a door for him", yet he chose to go somewhere else.



What you're saying is not simple.
If EVERYTHING is God's will, then it is his will that half the world go hungry, that some starve to death, that some babies are born with illnesses and have no chance to recover because their parents don't have/can't afford simple drugs that will keep them alive.
If EVERYTHING is God's will, then it is his will that people kill, bomb and disable/disfigure one another; that children grow up in fear, that Christians may suffer abuse/violence at the hands of non Christian partners.
If EVERYTHING is God's will, then he is wrong to punish those who sin and don't believe in him. They have no choice; what else are they to do? The Bible says that people who don't turn to Jesus and have eternal life are condemned. Why; if they have no will and it was God's choice that they shouldn't turn to Christ?

The Bible also makes it very clear that God is not like this.
"God IS love", 1 John 4:8.
"Love is patient, kind, .... not easily angered ... keeps no record of wrongs .. does not delight in evil ... always hopes, always perseveres", 1 Corinthians 13:4-7.
"God is light, in him there is no darkness at all", 1 John 1:5
"God is patient with everyone ... not wanting any to perish but everyone to come to repentance", 2 Peter 3:9.
Jesus said that God is a loving heavenly Father. Even earthly fathers wouldn't give their children snakes instead of fish; neither does God, Luke 11:11-13, who is perfect, Matthew 5:48.

Acts 13(48): As many as were ordained : not everybody but only those that were pre ordained by God : It is all his doing nothing of us : I do not exalt man .

 

[zoidar]

No he didn’t. All that was said is that God knows the end from the beginning. Are mans decisions and choices in life governed and moved by the decrees of God?

God uses our free will and choices for his purposes. That's how I understood Micah.

I can put it like this: If God knows about me going to steel a car, He can make sure the police is nearby to catch me.

 

[John tower]

No he didn’t. All that was said is that God knows the end from the beginning. Are mans decisions and choices in life governed and moved by the decrees of God?

Thou couldest have no power except it were given bu God : everything we can do is governed by whatever power he gives us , nothing of outselves : I fo not exalt man !

 

[MDC]

God uses our free will and choices for his purposes. That's how I understood Micah.

I can put it like this: If God knows about me going to steel a car, He can make sure the police is nearby to catch me.

So then you would agree that even our will is governed and moved by the decrees of God correct?

 

[Micah888]

God has declared the end from the beginning according to His council and will. Isaiah 46. Foreknowledge is nothing more than His will and purposes that are decreed being known. So again, how does man have “free” will outside Gods eternal plans and purposes?

The best example in the Bible is the plot to have Christ put to death by the Roman governor, resulting in His crucifixion.

We know from Scripture that the crucifixion of Christ was actually decreed by the Father from even before creation (1 Pet 1:18-20).

At the same time the bitter hatred and enmity of the Jewish religious leaders, the entrance of Satan into the heart of Judas, the frenzy of the Jewish mob to "crucify him", the cowardly capitulation of Pontius Pilate to the demands of the mob, all arose from within their own hearts:

And he [Christ] said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man. (Mk 7:20-23).

So this makes it crystal clear that the hatred and enmity against Christ, and His betrayal by Judas and Pilate came from within their own hearts.

Therefore God held the Jews accountable for the "murder" of Christ, even though it was necessary for the Lamb of God to take away the sin of the world. The two truths are combined together by Peter:

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain (Acts 2:23).

Stephen confirmed this when he addressed the Jews:
Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One [Christ]; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers (Acts 7:51,52).

 

[zoidar]

So then you would agree that even our will is governed and moved by the decrees of God correct?

I wouldn't say so. Because God may let the police be nearby just because one of the policemen prayed by free will this morning for God's help in service.

But it's mystery...

 

[John tower]

Well put, sister!

We can only do according to the power given us by God : so it is all God !

 

[Strong in Him]

Acts 13(48): As many as were ordained : not everybody but only those that were pre ordained by God : It is all his doing nothing of us : I do not exalt man .

So you've ignored all my points, with references, and quoted just one verse in reply.

 

[John tower]

So you've ignored all my points, with references, and quoted just one verse in reply.

I try not to give my own reasonings , just scripture : but you seem to dislike scripture as your always trying to explain it away in your own reasonings .

 

[John tower]

I try not to give my own reasonings , just scripture : but you seem to dislike scripture as your always trying to explain it away in your own reasonings .

This one verse explains all your points as all salvation is pre ordained by God and not the works of man : I do not exalt man !

 

[MDC]

The best example in the Bible is the plot to have Christ put to death by the Roman governor, resulting in His crucifixion.

We know from Scripture that the crucifixion of Christ was actually decreed by the Father from even before creation (1 Pet 1:18-20).

At the same time the bitter hatred and enmity of the Jewish religious leaders, the entrance of Satan into the heart of Judas, the frenzy of the Jewish mob to "crucify him", the cowardly capitulation of Pontius Pilate to the demands of the mob, all arose from within their own hearts:

And he [Christ] said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man. (Mk 7:20-23).

So this makes it crystal clear that the hatred and enmity against Christ, and His betrayal by Judas and Pilate came from within their own hearts.

Therefore God held the Jews accountable for the "murder" of Christ, even though it was necessary for the Lamb of God to take away the sin of the world. The two truths are combined together by Peter:

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain (Acts 2:23).

Stephen confirmed this when he addressed the Jews:
Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One [Christ]; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers (Acts 7:51,52).

Yes I agree very good example on how Gods eternal decrees are carried out by man, being the means or second cause. Therefore man being held responsible. So you do agree that God decrees all things that come to pass? Even evil as in the case of Christ’s murder?

 

[MDC]

I wouldn't say so. Because God may let the police be nearby just because one of the policemen prayed by free will this morning for God's help in service.

But it's mystery...

The Word of God teaches Gods Sovereignty and that all things come to pass according to His purpose and will. So no mystery. Just those who refuse to believe it

 

[zoidar]

The Word of God teaches Gods Sovereignty and that all things come to pass according to His purpose and will. So no mystery. Just those who refuse to believe it

No the Word doesn't say that. I think it's a huge misunderstanding of what being sovereign means.

 

[Micah888]

Yes I agree very good example on how Gods eternal decrees are carried out by man, being the means or second cause. Therefore man being held responsible. So you do agree that God decrees all things that come to pass? Even evil as in the case of Christ’s murder?

Not at all. Evil men are not compelled by God to perpetrate evil. Evil was not by "decree" but expected through divine foreknowledge. BIG DIFFERENCE.

 

[zoidar]

The Word of God teaches Gods Sovereignty and that all things come to pass according to His purpose and will. So no mystery. Just those who refuse to believe it

I think you should listen to this teaching about the early church fathers belief about predestination and free will.

 

[zoidar]

The Word of God teaches Gods Sovereignty and that all things come to pass according to His purpose and will. So no mystery. Just those who refuse to believe it

This is for you also MDC

Eph 1:11-13

In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

What is Paul really saying here, that God wills EVERYTHING as He see fit? Not at all! Look at verse 12. What God means here with "all things" is: that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. In other words God wills "all things", that is "all those who put their hope in him would be to the praise of his glory". In vers 12 Paul talks about those who first put their hope in Christ, but the same thing goes for the ephesians (and all other men who put their hope in Christ), that God also wills them salvation (all things) after they believe the message. Eph 1:11 doesn't say anything about God willing or choosing FOR us.

If you read the bible like you do these verses John, then you litterally have to hate your mom and dad and yourself to be saved, since that is what Jesus "say" (Luke 14:26). I hope you don't believe that.

And not only that, believing in God choosing everything for us is ignoring hundreds of texts where it says: make a choice, do good, walk in the light, don't sin, abide in me, follow me, seek me etc.

I like to add as well about Eph 1 vers 13, when they came to faith they "were sealed with the holy Spirit of promise", the promise that are given all those who believe in him that we would "be to the praise of his glory" (Eph 1:12).