Try against heresies III, 3, III,4
How long was that?
The key takeaway points...
1/ That the source of true doctrine is apostolic succession.
2/ That the truth is to be found NOWHERE EXCEPT the catholic church - the repository of true doctrine.
3/That all other churches must fall in line with doctrine of Rome.
And he list the bishops of Rome, and whilst Iraneus links them to Peter and Paul
Other fathers state clearly it is because of Peters special role appointed by Jesus.
And for anyone who doesnt know where to find such writings look here - all the early fathers. READ THEM!
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
Take Justin martyr saying that the eucharist is the "flesh of jesus"
[Staff edit].
I often see quotes taken from Iraneus (one particular section) whose context there is saying that gnostics, dodge from scripture to tradition whenever one or other disagrees with them, the posters then QUOTE ONLY where Iraneus notes that gnostics referred to only as "they" are negative on tradition - the posters use that quote to somehow saying tradition is no good.
[Staff edit].
But you cannot take that as Ireanus meaning. [Staff edit]. So read Ireanus, get the context then read III and leading to 3 and 4 .
The key takeaway points...
1/ That the source of true doctrine is apostolic succession.
2/ That the truth is to be found NOWHERE EXCEPT the catholic church - the repository of true doctrine.
3/That all other churches must fall in line with doctrine of Rome.
Then read what he has to say about gnostics ignoring both scripture AND tradtion when it suits them. [Staff edit].
It is why I wont quote sources on Luther either. [Staff edit].
Sola scriptura is false.
You cannot read Iraneus in an objective way and still believe that is true.
Get over it.
BTW I am ex protestant, ex evangelical. NOt a cradle catholic.
But early fathers like irenaus and those taught by john the apostle, such as ignatius/polycarp showed me where truth really lies.
So I know all the well worn (and easily discredited) arguments protestants use.
It took me years to realise I was conned by them!
The problem you are having is that you are trying to anachronistically read modern RC doctrine back into the Early Church Fathers instead of letting the ECF be the ECF. It doesn't work, does it?
1/Actually, it is apostolic tradition whose validity can be proven by provenance of bishops of Rome. I might add that he is using tradition in a very specific way throughout his writings. That is like a relay runner handing the bar to the next runner. And where does he point to as being in agreement with apostolic tradition?
2/We agree. That is why I generally will refer to the church of Rome as such and not the Catholic church because she holds to doctrines that are most certainly NOT catholic (modern Rome that is).
3/ Irenaeus states as much because of point 1.
I have read Irenaeus but I am not sure that you have. I have not taken him out of context and have made sure that when I have quoted him that I quote enough of the relevant section to establish context. The only person here who quoted something out of context was you quoting Luther which of this writing is still present in your previous post. I am not the one cherry picking. So if you have had a change of heart about cherry picking you might want to add a footnote or remove it from your post. I'll end my post with relevant quote to help you.
If Protestant arguments are so easily refuted then why are you struggling here? I am sure most of the time you can clobber ignorant protestants over the head with history and the ECF. Which in all fairness ignorance of seems to be the default position of many a protestant.
And you still haven't answered my question about Tradition.
Many thanks to
@FenderTL5 (Whom I am secretly wondering if he is a Tele guy too) for the research.
"Letter of doctor Martin to the Christians of Antwerp."
We believed, during the reign of the pope, that the spirits which make a noise and disturbance in the night, were those of the souls of men, who after death, return and wander about in expiation of their sins. This error, thank God, has been discovered by the Gospel, and it is known at present, that they are not the souls of men, but nothing else than those malicious devils who used to deceive men by false answers. It is they that have brought so much idolatry into the world.The devil seeing that this sort of disturbance could not last, has devised a new one; and begins to rage in his members, I mean in the ungodly, through whom he makes his way in all sorts of chimerical follies and extravagant doctrines. This won't have baptism, that denies the efficacy of the Lord's supper; a third, puts a world between this and the last judgment ; others teach that Jesus Christ is not God ; some say this, others that ; and there are almost as many sects and beliefs as there are heads.
I must cite one instance, by way of exemplification, for I have plenty to do with these sort of spirits. There is not one of them that does think himself more learned than Luther; they all try to win their spurs against me; and would to heaven that they were all such as they think themselves, and that I were nothing! The one of whom I speak assured me, amongst other things, that lie was sent to me by the God of heaven and earth, and talked most magnificently, but the clown peeped through all. At last, he ordered me to read the books of Moses. I asked for a sign in confirmation of this order, ' It is,' said he, ' written in the gospel of St. John.' By this time I had heard enough, and I told him, to come again, for that we should not have time, just now, to read the books of Moses. . . .
I have plenty to do in the course of the year with these poor people: the devil could not have found a better pretext for tormenting me. As yet the world had been full of those clamorous spirits without bodies, who oppressed the souls of men; now they have bodies, and give themselves out for living angels . . .When the pope reigned we heard nothing of these troubles. The strong one (the devil) was in peace in his fortress; but now that a stronger one than he is come, and prevails against him and drives him out, as the Gospel says, he storms and comes forth with noise and fury.
Dear friends, one of these spirits of disorder has come amongst you in flesh and blood; he would lead you astray with the inventions of his pride: beware of him.First, he tells you that all men have the Holy Ghost. Secondly, that the Holy Ghost is nothing more than our reason and our understanding. Thirdly, that all men have faith. Fourthly, that there is no hell, that at least the flesh only will be damned. Fifthly, that all souls will enjoy eternal life. Sixthly, that nature itself teaches us to do to our neighbour what we would he should do to us ; this he calls faith. Seventhly, that the law is not violated by concupiscence, so long as we are not consenting to the pleasure. Eighthly, that he that has not the Holy Ghost, is also without sin, for he is destitute of reason.All these are audacious propositions, vain imaginations; if we except the seventh, the others are not worthy of reply. . . .It is sufficient for us to know that God wills no sin. As to his sufferance of sin, we ought not to approach the question. The servant is not to know his master's secrets, simply his master's orders: how much less should a poor creature attempt to scrutinize or sound the mysteries and the majesty of the Creator ? . . ." To learn the law of God, and to know his soul Jesus Christ, is sufficient to absorb the whole of life. . . . A.D. 1525." (Luth. Werke,tom. ii. p. 61,sqq.)
The relevant section is actually from III/III:
1. It is within the power of all, therefore, in every Church, who may wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted bishops in the Churches, and [to demonstrate] the succession of these men to our own times; those who neither taught nor knew of anything like what these [heretics] rave about. For if the apostles had known hidden mysteries, which they were in the habit of imparting to “the perfect” apart and privily from the rest, they would have delivered them especially to those to whom they were also committing the Churches themselves. For they were desirous that these men should be very perfect and blameless in all things, whom also they were leaving behind as their successors, delivering up their own place of government to these men; which men, if they discharged their functions honestly, would be a great boon [to the Church], but if they should fall away, the direst calamity.
2. Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre-eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, p 416 inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.
3. The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate. Of this Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was allotted the bishopric. This man, as he had seen the blessed apostles, and had been conversant with them, might be said to have the preaching of the apostles still echoing [in his ears], and their traditions before his eyes. Nor was he alone [in this], for there were many still remaining who had received instructions from the apostles. In the time of this Clement, no small dissension having occurred among the brethren at Corinth, the Church in Rome despatched a most powerful letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace, renewing their faith, and declaring the tradition which it had lately received from the apostles, proclaiming the one God, omnipotent, the Maker of heaven and earth, the Creator of man, who brought on the deluge, and called Abraham, who led the people from the land of Egypt, spake with Moses, set forth the law, sent the prophets, and who has prepared fire for the devil and his angels. From this document, whosoever chooses to do so, may learn that He, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, was preached by the Churches, and may also understand the apostolical tradition of the Church, since this Epistle is of older date than these men who are now propagating falsehood, and who conjure into existence another god beyond the Creator and the Maker of all existing things. To this Clement there succeeded Evaristus. Alexander followed Evaristus; then, sixth from the apostles, Sixtus was appointed; after him, Telephorus, who was gloriously martyred; then Hyginus; after him, Pius; then after him, Anicetus. Soter having succeeded Anicetus, Eleutherius does now, in the twelfth place from the apostles, hold the inheritance of the episcopate. In this order, and by this succession, the ecclesiastical tradition from the apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have come down to us. And this is most abundant proof that there is one and the same vivifying faith, which has been preserved in the Church from the apostles until now, and handed down in truth.
Irenaeus of Lyons. (1885). Irenæus against Heresies. In A. Roberts, J. Donaldson, & A. C. Coxe (Eds.), The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus (Vol. 1, pp. 415–416). Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company.
