The United Methodist Schism

[dreadnought]

Sadly, many United Methodists leaders have chosen to teach a doctrine of sexual permissiveness. Some react by suggesting we start a new church. Where would the money come from to do that? I think the best thing we can do is hold our ground – try to get the church back on track.

 

[Albion]

Unlike the Episcopalians of the past several generations who faced similar challenges, Methodists would not have the same difficulties with Apostolic Succession and probably not with property rights, either, if they split. But they/you already have alternative Methodist church bodies to consider, such as the Free Methodist Church.

 

[dreadnought]

Unlike the Episcopalians of the past several generations who faced similar challenges, Methodists would not have the same difficulties with Apostolic Succession and probably not with property rights, either, if they split. But they/you already have alternative Methodist church bodies to consider, such as the Free Methodist Church.

My understanding is that all churches belong to the Church Conference. It the conservatives want to start a new church, they would have to build them with their own money. As for me, I love my local church and will do what I can to keep it on track.

 

[Albion]

My understanding is that all churches belong to the Church Conference. It the conservatives want to start a new church, they would have to build them with their own money. As for me, I love my local church and will do what I can to keep it on track.

Sure...and I am not urging you to do anything in particular. But it looks like you have some concern in case things get much worse.

 

[Dave G.]

To me biblical doctrine supersedes church doctrine made by men. When a church runs off the rails that far you would think the ones being run out would be the ones not following biblical perspectives on doctrine. But that is never the case. To me Satan wins then and if I had no power to change things I'd be moving on. Church is not about a comfy setting with pretty glass but about truth and the learning there of. In this case it seems like the church fathers perpetuate a lie.

Our local Episcopal church, to which my wife 'was' a long standing member, lost half it's congregation at a minimum when they voted in gays and female cardinals etc. A huge shakeup took place here locally. Devout people left and the deceived stayed.

 

[Dave G.]

Sure...and I am not urging you to do anything in particular. But it looks like you have some concern in case things get much worse.

Albion, what is the Anglican Churches view on this matter ?

 

[dreadnought]

Sure...and I am not urging you to do anything in particular. But it looks like you have some concern in case things get much worse.

It's hard to tell what will happen to the church in the long run. My own conference, the California-Nevada Conference, has gone badly astray.

 

[dreadnought]

To me biblical doctrine supersedes church doctrine made by men. When a church runs off the rails that far you would think the ones being run out would be the ones not following biblical perspectives on doctrine. But that is never the case. To me Satan wins then and if I had no power to change things I'd be moving on. Church is not about a comfy setting with pretty glass but about truth and the learning there of. In this case it seems like the church fathers perpetuate a lie.

Our local Episcopal church, to which my wife 'was' a long standing member, lost half it's congregation at a minimum when they voted in gays and female cardinals etc. A huge shakeup took place here locally. Devout people left and the deceived stayed.

I no longer take much interest in what goes on at the district and conference levels of the church, since they have little effect on the local church. The problem in the local church is if the bishop sends you a bad pastor, and my understanding is that the majority of pastors in this conference are bad. However, a person willing to stand by the teachings of our Lord can have enormous influence in the local church.

 

[Albion]

Albion, what is the Anglican Churches view on this matter ?

I am assuming that you know that there is the worldwide "Anglican Communion" to which The Episcopal Church belongs...and then there are about 20 million Anglicans who belong to non-member church bodies.

In the USA and Canada, the Anglican Communion affiliates are among the most liberal in the world and are a scandal to African and Asian Anglicans (as well as to many conservative Anglicans in the West) because of the sexual issues that the UMC also is facing.

There are two kinds of Anglicans who have branched off from The Episcopal Church in recent years. First came the so-called Continuing Anglican churches which opposed theological changes in the liturgy and, also, the ordination of women priests. Homosexuality was not yet (1970s) an issue when they left, but these churches are opposed to same-sex unions, gay clergy, and all of that.

Second, and only since 2009, there is the Anglican Church in North America, which is moderately conservative overall, but left The Episcopal Church precisely because these people would not tolerate the gay agenda being accepted by The Episcopal Church.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Sadly, many United Methodists leaders have chosen to teach a doctrine of sexual permissiveness. Some react by suggesting we start a new church. Where would the money come from to do that? I think the best thing we can do is hold our ground – try to get the church back on track.

When you say "sexual permissiveness" what all does that entail? Adultery? Fornication (couples living together)? Homosexuality?

 

[Dave G.]

I am assuming that you know that there is the worldwide "Anglican Communion" to which The Episcopal Church belongs...and then there are about 20 million Anglicans who belong to non-member church bodies.

In the USA and Canada, the Anglican Communion affiliates are among the most liberal in the world and are a scandal to African and Asian Anglicans (as well as to many conservative Anglicans in the West) because of the sexual issues that the UMC also is facing.

There are two kinds of Anglicans who have branched off from The Episcopal Church in recent years. First came the so-called Continuing Anglican churches which opposed theological changes in the liturgy and, also, the ordination of women priests. Homosexuality was not yet (1970s) an issue when they left, but these churches are opposed to same-sex unions, gay clergy, and all of that.

Second, and only since 2009, there is the Anglican Church in North America, which is moderately conservative overall, but left The Episcopal Church precisely because these people would not tolerate the gay agenda being accepted by The Episcopal Church.

Actually I'm not fully up on all the inner workings between Anglican/Episcopal and North American Anglican. It sounds complicated and divided.

 

[dreadnought]

When you say "sexual permissiveness" what all does that entail? Adultery? Fornication (couples living together)? Homosexuality?

I am thinking of homosexuality, because in my church conference, the California-Nevada Conference, homosexuality apparently is blessed by the majority of the leaders.

 

[Albion]

dave G--

Apologies. I failed to realize that I was being overtechnical there.

But the answer to the question you asked me is there if you push through the church jargon.

Basically, there are three groups of Anglican churches in this country--the Episcopal Church (liberal), the Anglican Church in N.A. (moderately conservative), and the Continuing Anglican churches (conservative).

The last two of these three are firmly against the homosexual agenda.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I am thinking of homosexuality, because in my church conference, the California-Nevada Conference, homosexuality apparently is blessed by the majority of the leaders.

I haven't heard what our little church is going to do. We certainly are not big enough or rich enough to separate and build.

 

[Albion]

A lot of small breakaways rent for a few years. You would be surprised how many other denominations will accommodate such groups for very small rent money...because they respect the reason their renters had to leave their former church.

 

[1stcenturylady]

A lot of small breakaways rent for a few years. You would be surprised how many other denominations will accommodate such groups for very small rent money...because they respect the reason their renters had to leave their former church.

All our money goes to the food bank. Our tiny church has the largest food bank in the area. They fill up your vehicle to the brim with as much as it will hold - every month.

 

[dreadnought]

I haven't heard what our little church is going to do. We certainly are not big enough or rich enough to separate and build.

I've come to believe what really matters is what is happening in the local church. If you can take a stand in your church, perhaps you can keep your pastor from leading the congregation astray. Don't forget Leviticus 18:22.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I've come to believe what really matters is what is happening in the local church. If you can take a stand in your church, perhaps you can keep your pastor from leading the congregation astray. Don't forget Leviticus 18:22.

I have no worries about him, or anyone else there.

 

[hedrick]

The Methodist church is a bit different from others in how pastors are appointed. In the PCUSA the church calls the pastor, so the situation you're concerned about wouldn't happen. No one can force a pastor on a congregation. Our problem is that some congregations don't want to be in the same denomination as people who accept gays, even if it has no impact on them directly.

All the proposals I've seen for the Methodists allow congregations choice. Some people envision separate jurisdictions and conferences. You'd actually be better off if a proposal to allow gays passes, since those proposals would provide for churches that disagree. Without that, the denomination is likely to split along jurisdictional boundaries. Churches that disagree with their jurisdiction are going to be in for trouble of one kind or another, depending upon State law.

As far as I can tell, there are currently two proposals being considered. One is effectively local option within the current structure. The other is an internal split, with two branches of some sort within the same denomination.

 

[Dave G.]

dave G--

Apologies. I failed to realize that I was being overtechnical there.

But the answer to the question you asked me is there if you push through the church jargon.

Basically, there are three groups of Anglican churches in this country--the Episcopal Church (liberal), the Anglican Church in N.A. (moderately conservative), and the Continuing Anglican churches (conservative).

The last two of these three are firmly against the homosexual agenda.

Oh I got it Albion, I meant complicated among the churches involved, as in lots of upheaval for the members. Your message was plenty clear and thank you for that.