Are Protestants dead?

[sunlover1]

Have you fully understood the nature of God? Unless, you have that knowledge, how can you say Jesus was fully God? Jesus was divine, no doubt about that.

It's much more simple than that.
We just agree with Scripture.
I can't have full understanding of anything about God.
I remember when I was searching for truth on this very
subject. Gosh, my friends ostracized me because I wasn't
sure in my own heart, that Jesus was God.
I didn't say that He WASNT, just that I was trying to find
out for myself rather than follow "doctrines of men".
I don't know what you say/think, but I came to the
conclusion, three years later, that He was/is indeed
God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit.
Great study, I hope you continue to keep your spirit
open to His truth too.

 

[BNR32FAN]

God's ways and thoughts are different. Paul was only speculating what Jesus might have thought. Paul also admitted that we prophecy in part. Many versions have come up with this translation:

6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

This goes well with the claim of Jesus as per His words.

Paul specifically says when he is not speaking from the spirit. He made no such remark before making this statement. If you believe that Paul does speak without guidance of the Holy Spirit throughout his epistles then you are saying we can’t trust half of the New Testament. Personally I think you a refusing to accept what’s right in front of you. The many versions you refer to are translated from the Greek version. The Greek version is the original.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Deleted

 

[Eloy Craft]

Have you fully understood the nature of God? Unless, you have that knowledge, how can you say Jesus was fully God? Jesus was divine, no doubt about that.

I know enough about the nature of God to know that only God can fully know the nature of God. I don't need that knowledge to know that Jesus is not 'partly' God. You believe Jesus is divine. Is that fully divine?

 

[Strong in Him]

The Word became flesh. Jesus prays to God to seek back this status of Word.

John 17:5 "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

No, Jesus was asking to be given the same glory that he had had with God, not the same status.

But at least you are now acknowledging that Jesus was eternal and existed before the world began.

 

[Righttruth]

It's much more simple than that.
We just agree with Scripture.
I can't have full understanding of anything about God.
I remember when I was searching for truth on this very
subject. Gosh, my friends ostracized me because I wasn't
sure in my own heart, that Jesus was God.
I didn't say that He WASNT, just that I was trying to find
out for myself rather than follow "doctrines of men".
I don't know what you say/think, but I came to the
conclusion, three years later, that He was/is indeed
God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit.
Great study, I hope you continue to keep your spirit
open to His truth too.

But that would nullify the words and claims of Jesus

 

[Righttruth]

Paul specifically says when he is not speaking from the spirit. He made no such remark before making this statement. If you believe that Paul does speak without guidance of the Holy Spirit throughout his epistles then you are saying we can’t trust half of the New Testament. Personally I think you a refusing to accept what’s right in front of you. The many versions you refer to are translated from the Greek version. The Greek version is the original.

Paul was a saint and disciple of Jesus Christ. At the same time, he was constantly troubled by the messenger of Satan because of his boastful nature which is against the humility required in a disciple. He also indicates that some of his statements are of his own, not a commandment of the Lord. His epistles written for specific people with the problems they had from far of places, cannot be generalized blindly.

 

[Righttruth]

I know enough about the nature of God to know that only God can fully know the nature of God. I don't need that knowledge to know that Jesus is not 'partly' God. You believe Jesus is divine. Is that fully divine?

Need not. He was divine to the extent granted by His God.

 

[Righttruth]

No, Jesus was asking to be given the same glory that he had had with God, not the same status.

But at least you are now acknowledging that Jesus was eternal and existed before the world began.

What status Jesus had before coming on to the world? 'Word' existed before the world began.

 

[Righttruth]

No, Jesus was asking to be given the same glory that he had had with God, not the same status.

But at least you are now acknowledging that Jesus was eternal and existed before the world began.

What status Jesus had before coming on to the world? 'Word' existed before the world began.

 

[Righttruth]

Please see above

 

[Righttruth]

Please see above

 

[BNR32FAN]

Paul was a saint and disciple of Jesus Christ. At the same time, he was constantly troubled by the messenger of Satan because of his boastful nature which is against the humility required in a disciple. He also indicates that some of his statements are of his own, not a commandment of the Lord. His epistles written for specific people with the problems they had from far of places, cannot be generalized blindly.

I agree that Paul does state that some of his advice is not inspired by the Holy Spirit but like I said he does indicate when he is making statements that are not inspired. In this particular case to the Philippians it is not a teaching that is exclusive to them only.

Philippians 2:6
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

By saying that “His epistles written for specific people with the problems they had from far of places, cannot be generalized blindly” you are showing that you are looking for every way possible to refuse to accept the truth. There is no way possible that this statement was only relevant to the Philippians. That’s a pretty lame excuse and completely irrelevant to this discussion. Friend perhaps you should stop looking at these verses in a defensive mode trying to disprove them and instead try to see if you can prove them.

 

[Strong in Him]

What status Jesus had before coming on to the world? 'Word' existed before the world began.

You are the one using the word "status", not me.
Jesus said that he shared God's GLORY before the world began. These are words of Jesus; he was with God before the world was created.

The Word became flesh - the Word was born as a human and given the name Jesus.
So the Word=Jesus; Jesus=the Word.
Paul says that by him, all things have been created, Colossians 1:16. If you look back to verse 13, "him" is referring to the Son, Jesus.
Hebrews 1:2 says that God appointed the Son as heir of all things, and through him, made the universe.

 

[Strong in Him]

So i guess the answer is that protestants are not dead.

 

[Strong in Him]

In essence a wrong non-biblical Creed (Nicene) was formulated at the instigation of pagan emperor Constantine to work against a misunderstanding of what was revealed in the Scripture.

Have you read the statement of faith at the beginning of this forum?
Part of it says,

Discussions in all "Christians Only" forums must be in alignment with Nicene and Trinitarian beliefs. Non-Trinitarianism may only be discussed in the Christianity & World Religion forum and the Debate Non-Christian Religions forum. Other Christian non-Nicene topics may only be discussed in the Controversial Theology forum.

This is a Nicene Christianity only forum - the reason being that the Nicene creed is a statement of Christian faith accepted by many churches.
I think it also says in the Statement of Faith of this forum, that if someone does not accept the Nicene Creed they may not use the icon that identifies them as a Christian. Same reason - the creed is a statement of our faith.

 

[BukiRob]

We're all speaking of the same thing. That's Jesus in the Incarnation.. he existed well before this. "Before Abraham was, I am." The Word is the eternal Logos.. "The Let There Be Light!" in God's creation.

You missed my point.... Yeshua is the living breathing Torah.

 

[BukiRob]

Men

Which means they have no intrinsic authority unlike the apostles

 

[straykat]

You missed my point.... Yeshua is the living breathing Torah.

I'm not sure what we disagree on. I only think I might disagree with Righttruth, because what I can deduce from the discussion now is he somehow separates the Incarnation from the preexisting Son.

 

[sunlover1]

But that would nullify the words and claims of Jesus

Which claims?

 

[BukiRob]

I'm not sure what we disagree on. I only think I might disagree with Righttruth, because what I can deduce from the discussion now is he somehow separates the Incarnation from the preexisting Son.

I am saying most gentiles really do not KNOW what John was really saying when he said the WORD became flesh.

John is saying that Messiah IS TORAH. the proof if this is when Yeshua proclaims I am the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE no one comes to the father but by me.

A word study in the Tanakh shows that repeatedly the Torah/commandments are shown as those very 3 things... the way, truth, and life.

Many Gentiles just assume that the Jews are blinded and THAT is the sole reason they reject Yeshua.

Paul was speaking prophetically about this... because we know that thousands upon thousands accepted Yeshua shortly after his ascension. Acts show this very, very clearly.

In Deuteronomy, the Children of Israel are warned by moche (Moses) that G-d would TEST them to see if they would hearken to his voice or be deceived by false prophets. The more you study Judaism and messianic Judaism what you begin to clearly see is how different it is from mainstream Christianity.

For example, nowhere in scripture will you find an admonition that sets aside G_D's appointed feasts. Yet the church does not observe them nor do the vast majority of believers. So try and use Acts 15 as the primary evidence for the setting aside the Torah and Sabbath yet they completely misinterpret what Acts 15 is about even though it is CLEARLY stated in verse 1 what the debate was over.

They fail to even recognize that Acts 15 is a clear picture of the Mosaic model of dispute resolution in play!

I fully believe that the age of the Gentiles has come to a close which IS a precursor to the end of the age and the redemption of Israel. I mean think about it... WHO is G-d speaking too when he says COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE? It is the CHURCH who has been deceived and is being called OUT of the Babylon mystery religion.

ALL of the Apostles were TORAH OBSERVANT until the day they died

 

[straykat]

No one is "blinded". As much as I think Messianics have a lot to inform others, you guys need to get off your high horse. Not only that, but this whole premise is an insult to divine providence. It's the same thing Protestants and all of their offspring have been doing for 500 years. "Everyone was mistaken for 1500 years..You're all blind. BUT I've unlocked the truth after all of this time." Charismatics do the same thing. Where they claim "latter rain" of the Holy Spirit, and the entire church has been in the dark ages or something.

Now back to the text. There's multiple meanings from the Jewish perspective there, and it's not merely the Word as Torah. It's hard to escape all of the Temple references right in the beginning of John, so it's not merely about Torah (nor were Jews ever against the concept of using "Word" or Logos to begin with. A lot of neoplatonic teachings cropped up in Jewish circles after Plotinus, who also used "Logos". Not to mention how much this influenced Kabbalah. Nor were Jews resistant to Greek thought after that either. A lot of Maimonedes' thought is built on Aristotle). This idea of a Jewish resistance to the NT because of linguistics is bunk. It's their own stupid fault, because they also followed many pagan Gentiles over the years. Yet you would defend them as if it's everyone else's fault. No, it's their own fault for not accepting Jesus. No one else's. They'd rather follow pagans than him.

Ummm... back to the Temple bit. "The Word Became Flesh and made his dwelling among us" is literally "made his tabernacle" among us. Then after that, John the Baptist calls him the Lamb of God. All throughout John, Jesus is Torah, High Priest, Temple, and Lamb all in one. No one is blind to this. And you're not building the body up when you talk as if your brothers are blind. It's just insulting.