Are The Scriptures Sufficiently Clear?

[Anto9us]

Psa 119:45

And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts

 

[redleghunter]

Thank heavens, no. Did you not see me earlier laughing about the Church of Christ? Aren't they Restorationists (Campbellites)?

Not all Church of Christ are Campbellites as far as I know. I know a Church of Christ theologian who is not.

Was just curious.

 

[straykat]

Not all Church of Christ are Campbellites as far as I know. I know a Church of Christ theologian who is not.

Was just curious.

I've heard of them. Someone actually PM'ed me about it, so I don't get them confused. They seem much easier to converse with.

 

[Athanasius377]

You could start with the diadache

Good suggestion. I taught a series of lessons for my church history class on the didache.

That said I would really like to know where I can find tradition in say a multi volume set. The Jews the Mishnah and even a commentary in the Talmud. The point is that if Tradition is required component of Divine revelation along with sacred scripture then where can I find this Tradition?

 

[Mountainmike]

Which misses the point.
The issue is conflicting doctrines.


I can number at least 5 variants some mutually exclusive of every aspect of doctrine including.
Baptism ( variants of method, meaning , efficacy, necessity, eligibility).. congregations have even fractured on what happens dying prebaptism.

Same or more variants of
Eucharist
Salvation
Meaning of faith,
Necessity and role of clergy
Other sacraments
Remarriage and divorce
Liturgy
Prolife issues
LGBT issues
End times
Intercession

There are many more - Need I go on?
Congregations have even had acrimonious split on what happens to a child dying pre baptism:

You name it Protestants disagree profoundly , have several contradictory and exclusive views, and have pretty much every combination - non denoms mix and match from the list.

Many denominations allow almost any variant too.
Presbyterians are nicknamed split p because of it.
Church of Christ and others have no set theology.
Branches of Lutherans do not even hold the same meaning of such as faith. Anglicanism is so varied the Holy See gave up ecumenical dialogue,

Even godhead with such as Filioque, and some pentecostals even believe in modalism!

So calculate permutations of belief and you get well over 10000 variants of which only one is truth.

So 30000 I suspect under values the damage caused DIRECTLY by this so demonstrated falasy sola scriptura " as many doctrines as heads" said Luther. He was right.

Here is the source and a catholic refutation of the number.

We Need to Stop Saying That There Are 33,000 Protestant Denominations

• Independents: 22,000 denominations
• Protestants: 9000 denominations
• Marginals: 1600 denominations
• Orthodox: 781 denominations
• Catholics: 242 denominations
• Anglicans: 168 denominations

Unless you want to try and answer which of the 242 catholic denominations you belong to.

EDIT: I did not see that Redleghunter had already posted the link. Sorry for the stereo effect .

 

[Athanasius377]

Which misses the point.

I can number at least 5 variants some mutually exclusive of every aspect of doctrine including.
Baptism ( variants of method, meaning , efficacy, necessity, eligibility).. congregations have even fractured on

Same of
Eucharist
Salvation
Meaning of faith,
Necessity and role of clergy
Other sacraments
Remarriage and divorce
Prolife issues
LGBT issues
End times
Intercession
Need I go on?
Congregations have even had acrimonious split on what happens to a child dying pre baptism:

You name it Protestants disagree profoundly and have pretty much every combination, non denoms mix and match from the list.

Many denominations allow almost any variant too.
Presbyterians are nicknamed split p because of it.

Even godhead with such as Filioque, and some pentecostals even believe in modalism!

So calculate permutations of belief and you get well over 10000 variants of which only one is truth.

So 30000 I suspect under values the damage caused DIRECTLY by this demonstrated falasy sola scriptura " as many doctrines as heads" said Luther. He was right.

That post is a dodge. Let's try this again. Where can I find Tradition and where did you get the Luther quote from?

 

[Jonathan Mathews]

Yes. Because each of these Scriptures is 100% clear, and they explain who teaches you the rest.

John 5:39-40
John 10:27
John 16:13
2 Timothy 3:16

 

[straykat]

This Scripture is 100% clear, and it clarifies all the rest.
John 5:39-40

Sadly, it's not true in practice. It clarified nothing except that man is proud and full of ego. All this thinking did was risk boosting the pride of scripture's readers (not the Scripture's fault.. but the readers').. and compel them to keep making new denominations after new ones.. all telling each other "Sola Scriptura". As well meaning as it all is, I don't see how anyone can deny the smorgasbord that the Church has become in the last 500 years.

 

[Jonathan Mathews]

Sadly, it's not true in practice. It clarified nothing except that man is proud and full of ego. All this thinking did was risk boosting the pride of scripture's readers (not the Scripture's fault.. but the readers').. and compel them to keep making new denominations after new ones.. all telling each other "Sola Scriptura". As well meaning as it all is, I don't see how anyone can deny the smorgasbord that the Church has become in the last 500 years.

I added a few more to help clarify

 

[TuxAme]

You may want to review this:

We Need to Stop Saying That There Are 33,000 Protestant Denominations

I would think you would agree that our actions show what we believe. Even in polls. Meaning even having 10,000 churches does not mean disunity.

Evangelicals are actually more unified than Catholics are on several issues.

http://www.peacebyjesus.com/RC-Stats_vs._Evang.html#THEOLOGICAL

I don't believe the high number I posted- I was putting it there as an extreme. I know as well that there aren't as few as a hundred different denominations. That was my low estimate.

And I would argue that, yes, having 10000 different churches does suggest disunity. Why wouldn't you all be one Church?

In the Catholic Church, every rite teaches the exact same doctrine. If you go to a Catholic Mass anywhere in the world, no matter what rite, you can be assured that you are receiving the same Eucharist as any other Catholic. The only major differences are cultural and traditional (for example, the Latin Church uses unleavened bread for the Eucharist, and the Eastern rite uses leavened bread- they're both valid and licit).

Can evangelicals say the same? Evangelical is just an "expression" of faith and is cross-denominational, isn't it?

 

[straykat]

I added a few more to help clarify

I wouldn't disagree with any of that. But there's more.. Jesus also built a church.. with apostles who laid on hands (ordination), who were given the power to bind and loose.. and it was these very guys who gave us the scriptures we quote. But they were not mere words. They were also living people.. not abstract ideas but real men who left something more than letters and gospels. They left the church Jesus gave them.

I'm in search of it, in addition to the scriptures. For the scriptures testify of it.

 

[Jonathan Mathews]

I added a few more to help clarify

Sadly, it's not true in practice. It clarified nothing except that man is proud and full of ego. All this thinking did was risk boosting the pride of scripture's readers (not the Scripture's fault.. but the readers').. and compel them to keep making new denominations after new ones.. all telling each other "Sola Scriptura". As well meaning as it all is, I don't see how anyone can deny the smorgasbord that the Church has become in the last 500 years.

At least it's a feast and not a famine, amen?

 

[straykat]

At least it's a feast and not a famine, amen?

Hah.. I suppose. Best to avoid the candy and greasy foods though.

 

[TuxAme]

Here is the source and a catholic refutation of the number.

We Need to Stop Saying That There Are 33,000 Protestant Denominations

• Independents: 22,000 denominations
• Protestants: 9000 denominations
• Marginals: 1600 denominations
• Orthodox: 781 denominations
• Catholics: 242 denominations
• Anglicans: 168 denominations

Unless you want to try and answer which of the 242 catholic denominations you belong to.

EDIT: I did not see that Redleghunter had already posted the link. Sorry for the stereo effect .

242 Catholic denominations, huh? We have no denominations- we aren't a denomination. We don't divide ourselves. We do have different rites, however, and guess what? We're all in perfect communion with one another. Go to a Latin ("Roman") church and you'll be taught the exact same doctrine as someone in an Eastern rite or, more specifically, the Byzantine rite. A Latin Catholic can validly receive communion in any of the other rites within our Church because we all teach the exact same thing. What differs are the expressions of our faith (again, for example, the Latin rite uses unleavened bread for the Eucharist, and the Eastern rite uses leavened bread).

We're not denominated because we're all united. Can you say the same?

 

[☦Marius☦]

Good suggestion. I taught a series of lessons for my church history class on the didache.

That said I would really like to know where I can find tradition in say a multi volume set. The Jews the Mishnah and even a commentary in the Talmud. The point is that if Tradition is required component of Divine revelation along with sacred scripture then where can I find this Tradition?

I'd say tradition is declared in this order-
Ecumenical councils (so read their canons),
Synod's and minor councils,
Writings of the fathers.

In the RCC they have a much better catechism then in the OC, probably because they are much more strict in their dogma.

I bought a book on liturgical tradition, as well as "The development of the liturgy in the Byzantine rite" - written by an Anglican. For saints you'll want to read the synaxis.
There is a series by some ex Protestant called The faith- it's basically a comprehensive catechism.

 

[straykat]

242 Catholic denominations, huh? We have no denominations- we aren't a denomination. We don't divide ourselves. We do have different rites, however, and guess what? We're all in perfect communion with one another. Go to a Latin ("Roman") church and you'll be taught the exact same doctrine as someone in an Eastern rite or, more specifically, the Byzantine rite. A Latin Catholic can validly receive communion in any of the other rites within our Church because we all teach the exact same thing. What differs are the expressions of our faith (again, for example, the Latin rite uses unleavened bread for the Eucharist, and the Eastern rite uses leavened bread).

We're not denominated because we're all united. Can you say the same?

I don't even agree with Catholics, but that much is very true.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Yet as mentioned earlier, poll after poll

Respectfully, RLH, I'm really not sure what part of this isn't adding up for you. So let me be more specific here.

The other side of schism is Anathema Maranatha.

ANATHEMA​

In passing this sentence, the pontiff is vested in amice, stole, and a violet cope, wearing his mitre, and assisted by twelve priests clad in their surplices and holding lighted candles. He takes his seat in front of the altar or in some other suitable place, amid pronounces the formula of anathema which ends with these words: Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate , so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment."...
...He who dares to despise our decision, let him be stricken with anathema maranatha, i.e. may he be damned at the coming of the Lord, may he have his place with Judas Iscariot, he and his companions.

Now, putting aside whether or not Protestants believe in Anathema Maranatha or anything similar to it, the Church DOES believe in it. She believes she has that kind of firepower: spiritual death.

Now, might Anathema Maranatha be a little severe for some cases? Yeah probably so. But it nevertheless is in the Catholic toolbox.

People can respond to polls, they can "object for reasons of conscience", they can do whatever they want. But the Catholic Church has Anathema Maranatha, a spiritual nuke. Ex-communication is no laughing matter. Anathema Maranatha is certainly no laughing matter. And ultimately that's what on the other side of their rebellions.

Under the circumstances, considering the stakes we're talking about here, I completely understand why the Church doesn't use Anathema Maranatha a whole lot. It makes sense to me. But I understand that there is a time and a place for everything.

All the polls in the world don't change the simple fact that the rebels you're talking about believe the Catholic Church has the means and the motive to pronounce Anathema Maranatha if the circumstances justify it.

It depends on the viewpoint taken. In my Evangelical church we are personally interviewed by the senior pastor and elders, review the statement of beliefs and constitution and actually sign a statement we are in agreement. The statement of faith and constitution clearly delineates what is not debatable and what is up to conscience. That functions much like your Confirmation which people affirm the faith.

Do they have anything like Anathema Maranatha though?

 

[Mountainmike]

That post is a dodge. Let's try this again. Where can I find Tradition and where did you get the Luther quote from?

The issue is variants of doctrine.

So no dodge.

And.. as I point out, 1 protestabt denomination can represent many doctrines, where 200 Catholic ones have the same doctrine. Non denoms are mix and match and there are millions of non denom Christians, all pope over a denomination of 1

So your post is a straw man. The 30000 and 200 are not comparable. Apples and oranges.

Surprisingly the quotation came from Luther!
I once spent a depressingly long time reading his writings!
His later letters show regret.

 

[straykat]

His later letters show regret.

Probably because he saw in his own lifetime the Reformers trying to Reform him as well.

 

[Mountainmike]

Probably because he saw in his own lifetime the Reformers trying to Reform him as well.

It was less the professional reformers, than everyone however well educated or informed, deciding they too could choose doctrine, rather than follow his. " every milkmaid now has their own doctrine" .

That is the inevitable fruit of sola scriptura