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Against Sola Scriptura...

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Assuming for the sake of the argument that all this is true, the Bible is what it is--and is available to all men, quite independent of anyones interpretation.

Therefore, Sola Scriptura is what it purports to be, even if individual readers are not receptive or responsive. But if that is so, the same applies to the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox teachings and what they base them on, too.
The Bible was produced from within Israel/the Church. It is Israel/the Church Who produced it by the power of the Holy Spirit and who, by the power of the same Holy Spirit, determined which books belonged in it and which did not. Now, those who do not Live within the Spirit led Holy Tradition of Israel are saying "I can know for myself (individualism) what the Scripture means and don't need anyone to tell me", instead of humbly admitting, like the Ethiopian Eunuch (in the humble Spirit of Holy Scripture) "How can I (understand) ... unless someone guides me?” (Acts 8:31)

The spirit of individualism is not of the Holy Spirit. It is of another spirit and those who have it do not know what spirit they are of. It leads to the cafeteria Christianity wherein one gets to choose what they believe to be true, and reject what they don't believe to be true. Some believe in eternal punishment, some don't. Some believe in the Trinity, others don't. Some believe there's human freewill, others don't. some believe that the deceased are conscious, others don't. Some believe that it matters what one believes, others don't. Some believe there is one True Church, others don't.

Regardless of what these may believe there is still one True Church. Both the Bible and the Church Who produced it by the power of the Holy Spirit agree.
 
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Steve Petersen

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He said, "So the Bible is God, in a sense."

Solomon makes it pretty clear that God cannot be contained.

1 Kings 8:27 “But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!​
 
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It is the people of God, not any particular institution or church organization that that verse is speaking of.


Now lets count the number of different denominations that insist that they are the one and only one that is true, is from the beginning, and all of that. :rolleyes:
There is only one visible Church organism that can pass the historical Holy Tradition test, with only one other Who even comes close.
 
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Albion

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The Bible was produced from within Israel/the Church. It is Israel/the Church Who produced it by the power of the Holy Spirit and who, by the power of the same Holy Spirit, determined which books belonged in it and which did not. Now, those who do not Live within the Spirit led Holy Tradition of Israel are saying "I can know for myself (individualism) what the Scripture means and don't need anyone to tell me", instead of humbly admitting, like the Ethiopian Eunuch (in the humble Spirit of Holy Scripture) "How can I (understand) ... unless someone guides me?” (Acts 8:31)

Lets talk about Sola Scriptura, if you are interested in doing that.

It seems like everyone who wants to tell us that he rejects Sola Scriptura does so on the basis of what some people who belong to churches that affirm Sola Scriptura allegedly do with Scripture. And that is not what Sola Scriptura is. That is like denouncing electricity because some people leave their lights on too long.
 
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That's what they all say. ;)
To say it is one thing. To be able to substantiate what is said is quite another. There is only One Church Who can substantiate this claim, with only one close runner-up in the Church of the Orientals. All others have come to proclaim false doctrines or reject True doctrines, which causes them to be in open opposition to a never-changing Holy Tradition.
 
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To say it is one thing. To be able to substantiate what is said is quite another. There is only One Church Who can substantiate this claim, with only one close runner-up in the Church of the Orientals. All others have come to proclaim false doctrines or reject True doctrines, which causes them to be in open opposition to a never-changing Holy Tradition.

With a couple of edits I can agree, swap out Orientals for Reformed and Tradition for Scripture and we'll shake hands. ;)
 
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Lets talk about Sola Scriptura, if you are interested in doing that.

It seems like everyone who wants to tell us that he rejects Sola Scriptura does so on the basis of what some people who belong to churches that affirm Sola Scriptura allegedly do with Scripture. And that is not what Sola Scriptura is. That is like denouncing electricity because some people leave their lights on too long.
I'm willing to discuss Sola Scriptura. However, it must be acknowledged that, historically and Traditionally, salvation was a thing that a person received by means of entry into the Life of the Church. Thus, salvation is not due to anything "alone". You are saved as a member of the Community of God. One is not saved by reading Scripture "alone". This very Truth (which is Biblical as well) stands firmly against the lone reader of Scripture salvation concept, so prevalent in the thinking of the reformation movement. The concept does not create Community. It creates endless breaking from communities, as evidenced by what actually takes place historically and as we converse right now.
 
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With a couple of edits I can agree, swap out Orientals for Reformed and Tradition for Scripture and we'll shake hands. ;)
More Oriental Orthodox have suffered and died for Christ in this century alone, than Reformed and Tradition for Scripture in all the centuries since Christ. So we won't be in agreement any time soon, I'm afraid.
 
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More Oriental Orthodox have suffered and died for Christ in this century alone, than Reformed and Tradition for Scripture in all the centuries since Christ. So we won't be in agreement any time soon, I'm afraid.

Could it be because there are so few Reformed left in the world in this century? The one true Church has always suffered, always been persecuted and she does not reside under one roof nor is she exclusive to any one denomination, she follows after Christ and she learns and grows and does the will of God wherever she may be.

Edited to add: Martyrdom is not THE hallmark of truth btw. It could probably be argued that more outside of Christianity have suffered and died than those inside. An example from this century would be the Holocaust. Other examples in history, as it has been described to me, the Muslims were nearly exterminated from earth. Again the Mormons were also persecuted terribly, and other groups. I hope this makes the point concerning martyrdom.
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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I'm writing an academic paper for my seminary program AND teaching two Sunday school classes on the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. My basic thesis will be something like: "The Bible teaches the doctrine of Sola Scriptura and therefore we should accept it."

In order to do a bang-up job I need to confront and dispatch the most formidable objections to the doctrine. What objections are you aware of? Also, if you could recommend a good book or scholarly article, perhaps from a Catholic perspective, which seeks to argue against Sola Scriptura, I would appreciate it!

Edit: By the way, let me define Sola Scriptura. The definition I'm working from is this:

The Bible alone is the Word of God and the only infallible rule of faith and practice.
Actually I'd have to say the most basic objection is that in practice nobody actually has sola scriptura... they all add on their denominations particular perspectives and proclaim it as 'biblical' implying that anyone who disagrees is not 'biblical'. So whether we like it or not even when we approach the Bible we do so with pre-conceived notions. For that reason it I think it is good to read dissenting views on a particular passage to understand why people read the same passages differently... which clearly isn't sola scriptura.
 
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redleghunter

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Friend, I am sorry to break the bad news to you, but there are no perfect copies of the original Greek and Hebrew manuscripts.
Perfect in what way? For the NT, when you have over 25,000 manuscripts in Greek, Syriac, Latin and a few other languages, it is not hard to figure out. That is if you are trying to build the Bible from scratch as if no one in the history of Christianity has done so in past. We have those to consider as well. The Eastern Orthodox had no break in Scriptures as they have the very same Greek NT throughout history. Just ask them. You are basically ignoring historical custodianship. That is an agnostic, atheist, Jewish and Muslim assertion and not a historic Christian held belief. What the skeptics want to do is ignore our long church history of copyists and scribes preserving the Word. For example, the entire Bible was translated into Latin by St Jerome in the 4th Century AD from the on hand manuscripts then, both Greek and Hebrew.

When you have just one or two love letters from a couple it is hard to confirm if the two love letters belong together. When you have over 25,000, well it is quite convincing.

The Dead Sea Scrolls come in at a more than 90% match to the 10th century AD Masoretic text. The DSS has manuscripts from every OT book except Esther.

Practically all of the major manuscript copies that are in existence are available on the Internet. Read and compare them for yourself.

Depending on the textual scholar there is a 95%-99% recovery rate for the entire NT Scriptures:

What about Variances in the Early Texts?

As we know it today, there are around 138,000 words in the Greek New Testament. There are literally hundreds of thousands of variants where there is not uniformity of wording. On average, for every word in the Greek New Testament, there are almost three variants. The large number is due to the large number of manuscripts. Are these differences capable in changing the meaning of the intent of the original authors? No. An overwhelming majority of alterations are accidental and trivial.

Textual differences are typically divided into four categories.

· Spelling and Nonsense Errors. This is by far the largest of the categories and the majority of these are spelling differences that have no impact on the meaning of the text. For example, in the Greek, John is spelled two different ways. The same person is in view; but the difference is in whether the scribe decided to spell John using two “n’s” or one. Another common difference found in Greek manuscripts is similar to the two forms of the indefinite article in English: a or an. These variances are so insignificant that most textual critics ignore them. Scribes who were tired or inattentive often created “nonsense errors.” For example, Codex Washingtonianus contains an error where a scribe wrote the word and instead of the word Lord. In the Greek, the two words are very similar (kai and kurios) and the mistake probably happened due to mental fatigue. In the overall context, the usage of the word and does not change the meaning of the text.

· Minor changes and alterations that do not affect translation. This category consists of variations in the usage of a definite article with proper names. Sometimes Greek uses the definite article with proper names while English does not. For example, in Luke 2.16, some manuscripts identify Mary and Joseph as the Mary and the Joseph instead of just Mary and Joseph. In other manuscripts, the article was not used. Also, word-order differences account for many of the discrepancies. An example of this can be seen in a sentence such as “Jesus loves John.” “In Greek, that sentence can be expressed in at least sixteen different ways without affecting the basic sense” (Grudem, Collins, & Schreiner, 2012). Word order changes are frequent in the manuscripts, yet these do not affect the basic meaning of what is being said.

· Meaningful changes that are not “Viable.” One example is found in 1 Thessalonians 2.9. A late medieval manuscript (from the 13th century) uses the phrase “the gospel of Christ.” This is a meaningful change, but not viable because almost all of the other manuscripts use the term “the gospel of God.” Other examples are seen throughout the gospels as scribes often tried to harmonize the wording between the gospel accounts. When they did so, they “tended to add material to one Gospel rather than take away material from another” (Komoszewski, Sawyer, & Wallace, 2006).

· Meaningful and “Viable” Variants. This represents about 1 percent of all textual variants. In these cases, the difference in the manuscripts can affect the understanding of a passage. Daniel Wallace identifies three significant examples:

o Romans 5.1 – Some manuscripts read we have peace while others say let us have peace. In the original language, the difference in the word is found in one letter. “If we have peace is authentic, Paul is speaking about believer’s status with God; if let us have peace is authentic, the apostle is urging Christians to enjoy the experience of this harmony with God in their lives. As important as this textual problem is, neither variant contradicts any of the teachings of Scripture elsewhere, and both readings state something that is theologically sound,[3](Grudem, Collins, & Schreiner, 2012).

o Mark 16.9-10 and John 7.53-8.11 are omitted in the earliest manuscripts and do not fit well with the style of writing of the authors. Even if one were to take away these passages, no essential matters of doctrine are changed.

There are thousands of variants and disagreements among the manuscripts that are in our possession, and there is not 100 percent agreement on the language of the original texts.
As opined on and sourced above, you make a mountain out of a molehill.

That is why some of the newer Bible translations omit entire verses that are found in older translations such as the KJV, for example.
Not omit but footnote the variants. Which would you like to offer which changes Christian doctrine or throws it into question?

I suggest you do some serious research into textual criticism and the process by which the NIV on your bookshelf arrived there.

Frankly I have done extensive research and have come across the usual "liberal Christian" skepticism I would expect from such churches which deny the infallibility of God's inspired written words; have seen such from agnostic, atheist, Jewish apologists and Muslims. However, never encountered a Roman Catholic siding with such.

Unless of course your point was we cannot know God's inspired words without a magisterium telling it is so. Because your own catechism states the Sacred Scriptures are the infallible Word of God.


II. INSPIRATION AND TRUTH OF SACRED SCRIPTURE

105 God is the author of Sacred Scripture. "The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit."69

"For Holy Mother Church, relying on the faith of the apostolic age, accepts as sacred and canonical the books of the Old and the New Testaments, whole and entire, with all their parts, on the grounds that, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author, and have been handed on as such to the Church herself."70

106 God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. "To compose the sacred books, God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more."71

107 The inspired books teach the truth. "Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures."72

108 Still, the Christian faith is not a "religion of the book." Christianity is the religion of the "Word" of God, a word which is "not a written and mute word, but the Word which is incarnate and living".73 If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, "open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures."74
Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 1 CHAPTER 2 ARTICLE 3
 
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Actually I'd have to say the most basic objection is that in practice nobody actually has sola scriptura... they all add on their denominations particular perspectives and proclaim it as 'biblical' implying that anyone who disagrees is not 'biblical'. So whether we like it or not even when we approach the Bible we do so with pre-conceived notions. For that reason it I think it is good to read dissenting views on a particular passage to understand why people read the same passages differently... which clearly isn't sola scriptura.

Except that Sola Scriptura does not speak to interpretations, it is concerned with authority and Scripture itself.
 
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redleghunter

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I would highly doubt it. And that's the very reason the church hasn't relied on Scripture alone.
Nor has the Catholic church rendered an infallible interpretation of the majority of Holy Scriptures.
 
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redleghunter

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God the father is a supreme authority. God the son is a supreme authority. God the Holy Spirit is a supreme authority. Sacred Scripture is a supreme authority. And Sacred Tradition is a supreme authority.
I know for a fact the Roman Catholic church teaches only the Trinity and not a Pentavarate.
 
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redleghunter

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14 These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly:

15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

KJV
What do pillars and foundations do for the Builder? That's right hold up the home He built. The pillars and foundation of an edifice did not build itself, but the Builder does.

The Church, the called out ones, the elect the ekklesia are the ones who uphold the Truth. They are not the makers of Truth but the speakers and communicators thereof.
 
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redleghunter

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14 These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly:

15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

KJV
How does one test "Church A" to see if they are truly the church of the living God? And as the pillar and ground of truth how do we test their claims as truth bearers?
 
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Albion

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I'm willing to discuss Sola Scriptura. However, it must be acknowledged that, historically and Traditionally, salvation was a thing that a person received by means of entry into the Life of the Church. Thus, salvation is not due to anything "alone".You are saved as a member of the Community of God. One is not saved by reading Scripture "alone".
Well, Sola Scriptura is not about being saved, so there is nothing that "must be acknowledged" with regard to that idea.
 
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redleghunter

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This is where Dr. Michael J. Kruger's book "Canon Revisited" is a breath of fresh air, his approach to the topic is God centered and recognizes God as the head of the canon. I really need to get around to reading it, but I understand the gist of what it is about and where he is coming from in approaching it, rather than the more traditional way of simply referring to Catholic Church councils as having settled the issue of canon.
Irenaeus and Tertullian quoted from just about every NT book later considered canon before there was a discussion of a canon. The NT books were already considered authoritative because they contained the Words of Christ and written by His apostles.
 
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