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The Scriptural documentation of the Pre-trib Rapture of the Church and its timing

Douggg

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How could they make a connection with something that was sealed from them?
I don't understand why you keep asking the same question which the answer is obvious. It is like asking why didn't the disciples comprehend that Jesus was going to die on the cross for forgiveness of sins ahead of time, even though Jesus told them...it was sealed from their understanding.

Luke 18:

31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:

33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.
 
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jgr

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I don't understand why you keep asking the same question which the answer is obvious. It is like asking why didn't the disciples comprehend that Jesus was going to die on the cross for forgiveness of sins ahead of time, even though Jesus told them...it was sealed from their understanding.

Luke 18:

31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:

33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

I don't understand why you keep claiming that they didn't make the connection, when they couldn't make it because it was sealed.

If you stop claiming that they didn't make the connection, I'll stop asking how they could make it if it was sealed.
 
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Douggg

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What the Reformers did was the logical result of their accurate prophetic understanding. Without that understanding, the Reformation would not have occurred. So if you're grateful for what the Reformers did, you must unavoidably also be grateful for their prophetic understanding, without which they would not have done what they did.
No, you are making bad logic. They were right as far as their theological objections to the practices and abuses of the Roman Catholic Church system. But their eschatology assertion that the Pope/Papacy was the Antichrist was wrong.
 
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jgr

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No, you are making bad logic. They were right as far as their theological objections to the practices and abuses of the Roman Catholic Church system. But their eschatology assertion that the Pope/Papacy was the Antichrist was wrong.
Their eschatological assertion was one of the foundational doctrines of the Reformation. Without it, the Reformation would not have occurred. So if you're grateful for the Reformation, as you acknowledged that you are, then you must also be grateful for the eschatological assertion that underpinned it and made it possible.
 
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Douggg

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I don't understand why you keep claiming that they didn't make the connection, when they couldn't make it because it was sealed.

If you stop claiming that they didn't make the connection, I'll stop asking how they could make it if it was sealed.
You can keep asking a senseless question all you want. If the understanding of Ezekiel 39 was sealed from them, they would not understand it. If a person doesn't understand the end times prophecies properly - they are going to come to some wrong conclusions - which the reformers did regarding their claim of the Pope/Papacy being the Antichrist.
 
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Douggg

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Their eschatological assertion was one of the foundational doctrines of the Reformation. Without it, the Reformation would not have occurred. So if you're grateful for the Reformation, as you acknowledged that you are, then you must also be grateful for the eschatological assertion that underpinned it and made it possible.
No matter how you frame it, the reformers were wrong about their eschatology that the Pope/Papacy is the Antichrist.
 
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jgr

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You can keep asking a senseless question all you want. If the understanding of Ezekiel 39 was sealed from them, they would not understand it. If a person doesn't understand the end times prophecies properly - they are going to come to some wrong conclusions - which the reformers did regarding their claim of the Pope/Papacy being the Antichrist.
Of course they wouldn't understand it if it was sealed and they couldn't read it. How can you be expected to understand something that you're prevented from reading?

The Reformers got it right, and that's why we enjoy the spiritual freedoms that allow us to have this dialogue today.

Be grateful, and give thanks.
 
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jgr

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No matter how you frame it, the reformers were wrong about their eschatology that the Pope/Papacy is the Antichrist.
No matter how you frame it, the Reformation was a success. In order for the Reformation to be successful, the Reformers' eschatology had to be correct. Because the Reformation was successful, the Reformers' eschatology was correct.
 
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Douggg

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Of course they wouldn't understand it if it was sealed and they couldn't read it. How can you be expected to understand something that you're prevented from reading?

The Reformers got it right, and that's why we enjoy the spiritual freedoms that allow us to have this dialogue today.

Be grateful, and give thanks.
Maybe you don't understand. Eschatology is the study of the end times - the reformers did not get it right regarding the Antichrist. They misidentified the Pope/Papacy as being the Antichrist.

Ezekiel 39 pinpoints when that person confirms the covenant for 7 years relative to Gog/Magog. Gog/Magog was not back in the reformers' day, and is not associated with the Pope, but the another person Jesus spoke of in John 5:43 the Jews will embrace as the messiah - King of Israel - instead of Jesus, the rightful King of Israel.

Why don't you study Ezekiel 39 instead of repeating the reformers got it right - without looking at the biblical evidence? You are thankful to the reformers that we are not under the Papal system, rightfully so, but you don't seem to be thankful to God that He has made it possible in our generation that the understanding of the prophecies have been unsealed.

My prayer to the Lord Jesus Christ is that He open the understanding of the prophecies to me. And am thankful to no end for what He has.
 
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BABerean2

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They misidentified the Pope/Papacy as being the Antichrist.

Based on the only use of the word "antichrist" in the Bible, the Pope/Papacy fits perfectly.

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar? Who else but the person who rejects Jesus as the Messiah? The person who rejects the Father and the Son is an antichrist.

There were popes in the past who had a concubine living in the Vatican and fathered children with them during the time they were pope.

CNN has been running a special on the history of the Papacy, during the last few weeks.
It is something all Christians need to see.
Some of it has been quite revealing, about those who have claimed to have been God's representative on earth.

The first program began with the claim that Peter is the rock upon which the Church is built, instead of Christ.
That claim in and of itself, is "antichrist".

Claiming that Daniel 9:27 is not about the New Covenant of Christ is also "antichrist", in the same way.

.
 
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Douggg

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Based on the only use of the word "antichrist" in the Bible, the Pope/Papacy fits perfectly.

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar? Who else but the person who rejects Jesus as the Messiah? The person who rejects the Father and the Son is an antichrist.
antichrist in trait, but not the Antichrist who confirms the covenant with many, then breaks it committing the transgression of desolation, then is killed for his act, then is brought back to life, possessed by the unclean spirit in the bottomless pit, to become the beast in Revelation 13, who rules the world for 42 months, to be cast into the lake of Fire at Jesus Coming in Revelation 19.

I don't know why you are claiming the Roman Catholic Church denies the Trinity, the Father and the Son, since it is part of their doctrine.

Claiming that Daniel 9:27 is not about the New Covenant of Christ is also "antichrist", in the same way.
Not only does that not make sense, but it is against forum rules, as you are accusing members of this forum as being antichrists. This forum is in desperate need of two new tags.
 
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seventysevens

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Obviously you have severely misunderstood the writings of Calvin , scripture and the matter at
hand , if the Man of Lawlessness in 2Thess2 had actually been revealed 1 the restrainer - the Born Again Church would have been removed which they have not , the restrainer has not yet been taken out of the way , Man of lawlessness has not yet been revealed -has not yet taken his role and you are wrong on all counts , you apparently do not understand what Calvin wrote about



John Calvin disagrees.

Here, however, the subject treated of is not the name of God himself, but his majesty and worship, and, in general, everything that he claims for himself. "True religion is that by which the true God alone is worshipped; that, the son of perdition will transfer to himself." Now, every one that has learned from Scripture what are the things that more especially belong to God, and will, on the other hand, observe what the Pope claims for himself -- though he were but a boy of ten years of age -- will have no great difficulty in recognizing Antichrist. Scripture declares that God is the alone Lawgiver (James 4:12) who is able to save and to destroy; the alone King, whose office it is to govern souls by his word. It represents him as the author of all sacred rites; [644] it teaches that righteousness and salvation are to be sought from Christ alone; and it assigns, at the same time, the manner and means. There is not one of these things that the Pope does not affirm to be under his authority. He boasts that it is his to bind consciences with such laws as seem good to him, and subject them to everlasting punishment. As to sacraments, he either institutes new ones, according to his own inclination, [645] or he corrupts and deforms those which had been instituted by Christ -- nay, sets them aside altogether, that he may substitute in their place the sacrileges [646] which he has invented. He contrives means of attaining salvation that are altogether at variance with the doctrine of the Gospel; and, in fine, he does not hesitate to change the whole of religion at his own pleasure. What is it, I pray you, for one to lift up himself above everything that is reckoned God, if the Pope does not do so? When he thus robs God of his honor, he leaves him nothing remaining but an empty title of Deity, [647] while he transfers to himself the whole of his power. And this is what Paul adds shortly afterwards, that the son of perdition would shew himself as God. For, as has been said, he does not insist upon the simple term God, but intimates, that the pride [648] of Antichrist would be such, that, raising himself above the number and rank of servants, and mounting the judgment-seat of God, [649] would reign, not with a human, but with a divine authority. For we know that whatever is raised up into the place of God is an idol, though it should not bear the name of God.
 
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seventysevens

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The first program began with the claim that Peter is the rock upon which the Church is built, instead of Christ.
That claim in and of itself, is "antichrist".

Claiming that Daniel 9:27 is not about the New Covenant of Christ is also "antichrist", in the same way.

.
That is the RCC trying to lay claim that the RCC was the first Christian church by implying and stating that Peter was the first Catholic Pope but that is easily debunked as anyone can discover easily that Peter was not a catholic Pope
RCC has many secrets that reveal many deceptions - Catholic schools have taught that the last Pope will be the Evil Pope anticipated to be the false prophet
 
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jgr

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Obviously you have severely misunderstood the writings of Calvin , scripture and the matter at
hand , if the Man of Lawlessness in 2Thess2 had actually been revealed 1 the restrainer - the Born Again Church would have been removed which they have not , the restrainer has not yet been taken out of the way , Man of lawlessness has not yet been revealed -has not yet taken his role and you are wrong on all counts , you apparently do not understand what Calvin wrote about

Here's an excerpt of what Calvin wrote:

""True religion is that by which the true God alone is worshipped; that, the son of perdition will transfer to himself." Now, every one that has learned from Scripture what are the things that more especially belong to God, and will, on the other hand, observe what the Pope claims for himself -- though he were but a boy of ten years of age -- will have no great difficulty in recognizing Antichrist."

He says that a ten-year-old boy would recognize Antichrist.

How old are you?
 
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jgr

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Maybe you don't understand. Eschatology is the study of the end times - the reformers did not get it right regarding the Antichrist. They misidentified the Pope/Papacy as being the Antichrist.

Ezekiel 39 pinpoints when that person confirms the covenant for 7 years relative to Gog/Magog. Gog/Magog was not back in the reformers' day, and is not associated with the Pope, but the another person Jesus spoke of in John 5:43 the Jews will embrace as the messiah - King of Israel - instead of Jesus, the rightful King of Israel.

Why don't you study Ezekiel 39 instead of repeating the reformers got it right - without looking at the biblical evidence? You are thankful to the reformers that we are not under the Papal system, rightfully so, but you don't seem to be thankful to God that He has made it possible in our generation that the understanding of the prophecies have been unsealed.

My prayer to the Lord Jesus Christ is that He open the understanding of the prophecies to me. And am thankful to no end for what He has.

I understand, the Reformers understood, and they got it right. The biblical evidence is in Daniel, Thessalonians, John's epistles, and Revelation. That's a whole lot more than Ezekiel 39 alone.

Why don't you study Daniel 9:24-27 and recognize Messiah the Prince throughout within it, as the historical true Christian Church has done for over eighteen centuries?
 
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Andy centek

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Beginning with Mt.24:31:
And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out.


Jn.14:2-4 and 28:
"In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you [See Jn.20:17]. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." [Jn.14:2-4].

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [Jn.14:28].

The Scriptures tell us where we all go, who belong to Christ, after the death of our bodies:
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, in and of itself, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the seven year tribulation, when He returns for those of us who are still alive, waiting for His appearing, in 1 Thess.4:17. Since He raises all those who have died, to be with Him, immediately after their physical death, for more than 2,000 years.

A look at 1 Thess.4:13-18:
The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in vs 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.

"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Vs 14.

"According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.

Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures.

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" [Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Vs 16.

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

"Therefore encourage each other with these words." Vs 18.

The precise timing of the rapture of the Church in 2 Thess.2:1-8:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thess.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thess.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thess.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the Antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] WILL NOT COME, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "TO DEPART, or DEPARTURE." meaning, the RAPTURE of the Church occurs FIRST, BEFORE THE DAY OF LORD] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The Antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [DEPARTURE] will take place before the Antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By: Thomas Ice, PhD
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the word, "discessio," meaning "DEPARTURE." Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of " departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The Antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thess.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In verse 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thess.2:3, 4 and 8.

From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.


Other verses pertaining to the rapture of the Church: 1 Thess.1:10; 1 Thess.5:9; Rev.3:10 and Rev.4:1-2. Of the saints [Church] returning with Christ from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7, 8 and 14; Jude 14 and Zech.14:4-5/

The difference between the rapture of the Church and the second coming of Christ:

http://deeperwalk.lefora.com/2009/12/19 ... f-t/#post0

All parenthetics mine.

God Bless!

Quasar92
 
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BABerean2

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That is the RCC trying to lay claim that the RCC was the first Christian church by implying and stating that Peter was the first Catholic Pope but that is easily debunked as anyone can discover easily that Peter was not a catholic Pope
RCC has many secrets that reveal many deceptions - Catholic schools have taught that the last Pope will be the Evil Pope anticipated to be the false prophet

The Papacy now seems to be promoting the error of Dual-Covenant Theology.


.
 
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