SALVATION offered by Jesus: COMPLETED and IRREVOCABLE

[FreeGrace2]

You have never pointed out the cause and effect of eternal life.

This just proves that you don't read my posts then. I've been doing it repeatedly. But since you at least NOW admit that I claim to have pointed out the CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life (not "cause and effect of eteranl life), how about dealing with the points of that post, since you don't think I did point that out.

If I didn't, please prove your current claim.

You have only quoted half of a statement regarding eternal life which is verse 28.

That's because the second part doesn't show CAUSE and EFFECT. Only EFFECT.

Or, since there is disagreement, please show how v.28b doesn't show EFFECT of having eternal life.

Attempting to build a doctrine around a half of a statement taken out of context is how false doctrine and heresy is promoted.

Always quick to make this shallow statement, but always absent to back it up with any explanation of why my points were either taken of out context or how my points are false doctrine.

Claims are quite easy to make. What's difficult is to prove your claims. Which you've never done.

Verse 28 begins with the word “and” which is a conjunction that ties together the “cause” with the “effect”.

I recommend reviewing basic English grammar. The "and" that ties together the cause and effect is found between the 2 phrases in v.28a.

And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. Vs 28

The first "and" has NOTHING to do with CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

This is because it is the FIRST clause in v.28 that states the CAUSE of eternal life, which is Jesus Himself, by His own words, "I give them eternal life". How is that NOT what causes possession of eternal life? You gots some 'splainin' to do.

Verse 27 is the cause.

Nonsense. Anyone with a basic understanding of English immediately knows this is wrong. It's Jesus who GIVES eternal life, which is stated in the first clause in v.28.

v.27 is a description of Jesus' sheep, which are believers in Him. No CAUSE here.

It is the GIVER of eternal life that is the CAUSE of having eternal life. EVERYONE knows that FACT.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

So then, what did Jesus mean when He said, "I give them eternal life"? How is that not showing the CAUSE of having eternal life?

His sheep are those who hear His Voice and know Him, and who follow Him.

So then, it seems your claim is that the "His sheep" from v.27 are the CAUSE of having eternal life.

Well, this kinda does align with your view that the believer has to keep doing something to be saved. But it's been shown numerous times how unbiblical that is.

Those who hear and follow for a while then become lost, have returned to being sinners who are dead to God, being lost.

Just keep on contradicting Jesus' own words. We'll see what happens at the Judgment Day.

Just exactly like Jesus taught.

You have no idea.

This foundational truth can not be changed by quoting other scriptures.

How ironic. Exactly what you've been doing for quite some time.

Bottom line here: nothing you've posted refutes my points about John 10:28a being about the CAUSE (Jesus) and EFFECT (eternal security) of having eternal life.

All that was done is a statement of disagreement and a claim of your own. That isn't even close to what constitutes a refutation.

You need to provide substantive evidence to support your claims. Without that, the claims are empty.

 

[justbyfaith]

This opinion is not found in Scripture. What is found is that being saved in the now means having put our trust/faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. John 5:24.


And this sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit GUARANTEES our eternal security.

Great verses!!

What you mean to say is that YOU have not seen this doctrine in scripture. Because I see it clearly. What it will take is for God to open your eyes when you read the appropriate verses.

 

[justbyfaith]

Without shadow of doubt. Assuming of course that it is true saving belief which includes a proper heart application and not just lip service.

I wouldn't trade gospels with you for all the gold in all the world.

I'll just leave it at that.

Would you trade gospels with him if you found out that yours was false and his is true? We ought not to believe in things merely because they appeal to our sensibilities; there is a Proverb that says that there is a way which seems right to a man; but the end thereof is the way of death.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Jesus is indeed the cause in the CAUSE and EFFECT of John 10:28. But what does this mean? Galatians 2:20 has the answer. It means that Christ is living His life in me and through me.

How does that relate to what CAUSES possession of eternal life? It doesn't.

When I point out the CAUSE of having (possessing) eternal life, I mean who provides eternal life. That is Jesus, just as v.28a states.

Q: If Jesus is living in me and through me, will there be any sin in my life?

A: No; Jesus Christ doesn't sin.

The problem that you seem to be unaware of is that Jesus isn't always "living in and through" the believer. Which is WHY Paul wrote the commands to STOP grieving (Eph 5:18) and STOP quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit.

Is Jesus "living in and through" you IF you are either grieving or quenching the Spirit?

If you think so, please how that works because I don't see how.

Q: Can someone take back their life from surrender to Christ so that they are the ones living, so that sinning is possible?

This sounds a lot like believing in sinless perfection in this life. If that were possible, then there would be NO reason for John to have written the first chapter of 1 John and confession for cleansing from sin.

A: If you have been set free, why would you want to go back to a life of slavery? I suppose it is possible;

This is naivety to the max.

but he who does the will of God abides for ever: and whoever abides in Him doesn't sin; as has been seen through scriptures that I have already referenced in this thread. 1 John 2:17, 1 John 3:6.

Correct. But I've not seen any one from the OSNAS crowd have an understanding of what fellowship is and means, which is what "abiding in Him" is about.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What you mean to say is that YOU have not seen this doctrine in scripture.

Actually, no. I DID mean it's not in Scripture. I've been reading through the NT monthly for nearly 20 years. If it were in the Bible, I'm very sure I would have seen it.

Because I see it clearly. What it will take is for God to open your eyes when you read the appropriate verses.

When someone quotes verses that actually SAYS what is being claimed.

So far, that hasn't been done.

The verses supplied by OSNAS have to be issumed to mean what they claim. The verses do NOT state what OSNAS claims.

However, John 10:28a actually SAYS Jesus is the CAUSE of having eternal life, and that eternal security is the EFFECT of having eternal life.

"I give them eternal life" is a statement that shows the CAUSE of having eternal life. Jesus is the One who gives eternal life.

"and they shall never perish" is a statement that shows the EFFECT of having eternal life, which is never perishing.

Very clear and straightforward.

 

[justbyfaith]

Sure.

This is your post:
"The Israelites are set forth by example as "saved" because of the blood on the doorpost: they were later destroyed. The people Jude wrote to previously understood the implications of this but had lost sight of it, and thus the fear of the Lord in their hearts."

I don't put quotes around the word saved regarding the Exodus generation because Paul made it clear that they were truly 100% saved. Not just "saved", whatever that may mean to some.

And being "later destroyed" is a direct reference to their physical death during the 40 year march for their failure to trust God to meet their needs, which has nothing to do with eternal salvation.

Even Moses failed to enter the promised land for his ONE TIME failure of obedience, which the Bible describes as breaking faith with God.

Deut 32:51 - This is because both of you broke faith with me in the presence of the Israelites at the waters of Meribah Kadesh in the Desert of Zin and because you did not uphold my holiness among the Israelites.

What you have failed to do is to see these scriptures as a type. Moses is a type of the law and the written code will not enter into the promised land. The Israelites are a type of those saved from spiritual death through the blood of Christ (i.e. on the doorpost). Here physical death represents spiritual death: that the angel of death passed over them and they were saved from physical death means they were saved from spiritual death. Later they were physically destroyed after having been "saved" by the blood on the doorpost; which represents the spiritual death of those who have unbelief after initially being saved. Their physical destruction, in the type/antitype, represents spiritual death. The wages of sin IS death; and this is not only speaking of physical death, Isaiah 59:2.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Would you trade gospels with him if you found out that yours was false and his is true? We ought not to believe in things merely because they appeal to our sensibilities

Funny that you say this. This is exactly what OSNAS does regarding OSAS. They come up with the most offensive examples of a believer gone rogue. So OSNAS does appeal to their "sensibilities", as they reveal they cannot accept that such a believer should be able to enter heaven.

there is a Proverb that says that there is a way which seems right to a man; but the end thereof is the way of death.

And I believe that Proverb wholly. Why would you think I didn't believe that?

 

[justbyfaith]

How does that relate to what CAUSES possession of eternal life? It doesn't.

When I point out the CAUSE of having (possessing) eternal life, I mean who provides eternal life. That is Jesus, just as v.28a states.


The problem that you seem to be unaware of is that Jesus isn't always "living in and through" the believer. Which is WHY Paul wrote the commands to STOP grieving (Eph 5:18) and STOP quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit.

Is Jesus "living in and through" you IF you are either grieving or quenching the Spirit?

If you think so, please how that works because I don't see how.


This sounds a lot like believing in sinless perfection in this life. If that were possible, then there would be NO reason for John to have written the first chapter of 1 John and confession for cleansing from sin.


This is naivety to the max.


Correct. But I've not seen any one from the OSNAS crowd have an understanding of what fellowship is and means, which is what "abiding in Him" is about.

Do you think that the fact that the apostle tells us NOT to grieve or quench the Spirit means that we necessarily MUST disobey this command at some point?

 

[FreeGrace2]

What you have failed to do is to see these scriptures as a type

No, I see the Scriptures for what they SAY.

Moses is a type of the law and the written code will not enter into the promised land.

This isn't even close to the truth. Moses was a real person who led God's chosen people out of Egypt and into the promised land, minus the first generation, who FAILED to believe God's promise of the promised land after the spy report came in and the majority report of 10 spies all whined and wimpered about how big the giants in the land were, and how they would "harm the children". Only Joshua and Caleb reported the land was just as God promised and that Israel with God's help could conquer the land. But the people believed the majority report, and rejected the minority report.

The result was severe; God told Moses to tell the people that no one 20 y/o and older would enter the land except Joshua and Caleb. And Paul wrote about that in 1 Cor 10.

 

[justbyfaith]

Actually, no. I DID mean it's not in Scripture. I've been reading through the NT monthly for nearly 20 years. If it were in the Bible, I'm very sure I would have seen it.


When someone quotes verses that actually SAYS what is being claimed.

So far, that hasn't been done.

The verses supplied by OSNAS have to be issumed to mean what they claim. The verses do NOT state what OSNAS claims.

However, John 10:28a actually SAYS Jesus is the CAUSE of having eternal life, and that eternal security is the EFFECT of having eternal life.

"I give them eternal life" is a statement that shows the CAUSE of having eternal life. Jesus is the One who gives eternal life.

"and they shall never perish" is a statement that shows the EFFECT of having eternal life, which is never perishing.

Very clear and straightforward.

In the book of Hebrews it states clearly that sin is deceitful and that there is the possibility of departing from the living God because of unbelief, because sin is deceitful. Those who truly cannot lose their salvation are those who take warnings like this to heart, and heed them. But you are probably going to have to see it in your personal reading time. Seeds planted often don't immediately sprout.

 

[justbyfaith]

Funny that you say this. This is exactly what OSNAS does regarding OSAS. They come up with the most offensive examples of a believer gone rogue. So OSNAS does appeal to their "sensibilities", as they reveal they cannot accept that such a believer should be able to enter heaven.


And I believe that Proverb wholly. Why would you think I didn't believe that?

I was actually responding to @Marvin Knox in that post.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Do you think that the fact that the apostle tells us NOT to grieve or quench the Spirit means that we necessarily MUST disobey this command at some point?

I really can't believe the type of questions being asked. He commands us to QUIT grieving/quenching the Spirit because we are out of fellowship when we do, and since Jesus taught in John 15 that only those in fellowship (abiding in Him) can produce fruit, it should be obvious WHY believers should QUIT grieving or quenching the Spirit.

Consider Gal 5:16 which says to "walk by means of the Holy Spirit". So, what's the opposite: when the believer isn't walking by means of the Spirit? The rest of the verse tells us what: "and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh".

So, the ONLY WAY to avoid fulfilling the lusts of the flesh is to walk by means of the Spirit.

 

[FreeGrace2]

In the book of Hebrews it states clearly that sin is deceitful and that there is the possibility of departing from the living God because of unbelief, because sin is deceitful.

Yes, the parable of the prodigal son shows the same thing. But note that even though the son departed from his father, he continued to be the son. No change in relationship, but a definite change in fellowship.

Those who truly cannot lose their salvation are those who take warnings like this to heart, and heed them.

Jesus said otherwise in Jn 10:28a. The EFFECT of having eternal life is never perishing.

But you are probably going to have to see it in your personal reading time.

As I noted, I've been reading through the NT monthly for nearly 20 years. I know what is taught.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I was actually responding to @Marvin Knox in that post.

I know. But these are open forums, so anyone can respond to any post, unless a poster specifically requests another poster to not respond.

I replied to correct an error.

 

[justbyfaith]

I know. But these are open forums, so anyone can respond to any post, unless a poster specifically requests another poster to not respond.

I replied to correct an error.

You personalized what I said to him, as though I had said it to you.

 

[justbyfaith]

Yes, the parable of the prodigal son shows the same thing. But note that even though the son departed from his father, he continued to be the son. No change in relationship, but a definite change in fellowship.


Jesus said otherwise in Jn 10:28a. The EFFECT of having eternal life is never perishing.


As I noted, I've been reading through the NT monthly for nearly 20 years. I know what is taught.

If you want to believe that you are safe with an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God, that you are merely a prodigal in the pigpen, then that is on you. Or that if you die out there in the pigpen, you will wake up safe in your father's home, that is on you. To be in the home of his father the prodigal had to pick up his feet and return home. If you are a prodigal out in the world, you will prove it BY RETURNING HOME TO YOUR FATHER. Someone who dies in the pig pen will be buried by the citizen he joined himself to because he was hungry and had spent all his goods. He or she is lost. As it is written, "For this my son was lost and is found; was dead and is alive again."

 

[justbyfaith]

Personally, I think that if we don't take the warnings of scripture to heart, we are in danger of falling. Let us not be high-minded, bur fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

I BELIEVE IN ETERNAL SECURITY. It is defined by Jeremiah 32:38-40. For it to work, you must have the fear of God. But if you are here only to argue your pov, I know that you will fail to see it and will continue to argue.

 

[justbyfaith]

Personally, I think that if we don't take the warnings of scripture to heart, we are in danger of falling. Let us not be high-minded, bur fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

I BELIEVE IN ETERNAL SECURITY. It is defined by Jeremiah 32:38-40. For it to work, you must have the fear of God. But if you are here only to argue your pov, I know that you will fail to see it and will continue to argue.

 

[justbyfaith]

Personally, I think that if we don't take the warnings of scripture to heart, we are in danger of falling. Let us not be high-minded, bur fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

I BELIEVE IN ETERNAL SECURITY. It is defined by Jeremiah 32:38-40. For it to work, you must have the fear of God. But if you are here only to argue your pov, I know that you will fail to see it and will continue to argue.

 

[justbyfaith]

Personally, I think that if we don't take the warnings of scripture to heart, we are in danger of falling. Let us not be high-minded, bur fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

I BELIEVE IN ETERNAL SECURITY. It is defined by Jeremiah 32:38-40. For it to work, you must have the fear of God. But if you are here only to argue your pov, I know that you will fail to see it and will continue to argue.

 

[justbyfaith]

Personally, I think that if we don't take the warnings of scripture to heart, we are in danger of falling. Let us not be high-minded, bur fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

I BELIEVE IN ETERNAL SECURITY. It is defined by Jeremiah 32:38-40. For it to work, you must have the fear of God. But if you are here only to argue your pov, I know that you will fail to see it and will continue to argue.