Was the Last Supper a Seder?

[CherubRam]

Normally, yes. Except in the case of Samson
who was a Nazarite for life.

Thank you for your reply.

 

[Lulav]

"twilight" is a very short time to kill 1000s of lambs, yes? Yeshua died in the afternoon at the 9th hour when the lambs were being killed...

That is why all the priests were called in for this Holy Day from all around Judea. This was the time when all courses were to work.

 

[visionary]

Didn't say he did. The lambs were killed at twilight, approx 6 hours before midnight.

Then why the shock of darkness at the hour of Yeshua's death?

 

[pat34lee]

Then why the shock of darkness at the hour of Yeshua's death?

Yeshua died well before evening, as the two on
the other crosses had to have their legs broken
so they could die and be buried before sunset.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

"...and they dwell in many cities in Judaea, and in many villages, and in great and populous communities".

Basically the same

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Then why the shock of darkness at the hour of Yeshua's death?

The "shock of darkness"?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

​

If Yeshua had taken a vow not to drink "the fruit of the vine" why would he offer wine
to His Disciples? Maybe, some think Yeshua first diluted it at least 50/50 with water

Agree! ​

(assuming you mean "the fruit of the vine" and not tea)​

Again, the vow was taken AT the "last supper", not before.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

That is why all the priests were called in for this Holy Day from all around Judea. This was the time when all courses were to work.

True, but as I said, when you say "twilight", it could mean the time between dawn and sunrise or between sunset and dusk, a very short time period. The lambs were killed during the afternoon hours on the 14th.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Normally, yes. Except in the case of Samson
who was a Nazarite for life.

As was John the baptizer

 

[Heber Book List]

Basically the same

It is pretty much saying that they were ubiquitous in Judea. That is vastly different from your claim of only living in the desert

They clearly lived in cities and villages - their homes were open houses for their fellow men, as I have said.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

It is pretty much saying that they were ubiquitous in Judea. That is vastly different from your claim of only living in the desert

They clearly lived in cities and villages - their homes were open houses for their fellow men, as I have said.

I understand that but the claim was they were in Yerushalayim when Yeshua ate the "last supper". I see no evidence of that since they shunned all large cities such as Yerushalayim was then. They considered them as evil and most if not all had left before Yeshua was even born. Plus they had LARGE problems with the Temple Priesthood as you well know...

 

[Heber Book List]

I understand that but the claim was they were in Yerushalayim when Yeshua ate the "last supper". I see no evidence of that since they shunned all large cities such as Yerushalayim was then. They considered them as evil and most if not all had left before Yeshua was even born. Plus they had LARGE problems with the Temple Priesthood as you well know...

I agree with your last sentence (who couldn't!), but I think we may have to agree to differ on the overall Essene question. Maybe more detail will come forth one day, either way round.

 

[AbbaLove]

Again, the vow was taken AT the "last supper", not before.

What you call "a Nazirite vow" was taken after He had enjoyed "the fruit of the vine" with His twelve Disciples. Yeshua's statement was because He was soon to be crucified so you need to consider the context of Matthew 26:29 ... "until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom." So, yes Lulav is CORRECT when she says, "He drank with them at the Seder."

He drank with them at the Seder.

Don't think that if a man and woman disagree when interpreting scripture that it's the man that's always right. Don't think that a very knowledgeable woman doesn't know the correct interpretation of scripture in it's intended context.

 

[AbbaLove]

Then why the shock of darkness at the hour of Yeshua's death?

Matthew 27:45
And from the sixth hour darkness came over all the land unto the ninth hour,
Matthew 27:45
At noon darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon.

This in no way disqulifies Lulav's post ...

The lambs were killed at twilight, approx 6 hours before midnight.

 

[AbbaLove]

Then why the shock of darkness at the hour of Yeshua's death?

Matthew 27:45
And from the sixth hour darkness came over all the land unto the ninth hour,
Matthew 27:45
At noon darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon.​

The Sanhedrin no longer observed the timeline as first established by YHVH in the Torah for slaying of the lambs "between the evenings" (aka twilight). Would the Sanhedrin have allowed Yeshua to correct them that their timeline was at the end of Aviv/Nisan 14, when YHVHs original timeline was at the beginning of Aviv/Nisan 14. So, in no way is Lulav's post disqualified for her correct interpretation of the Torah Passover scriptures.

The lambs were killed at twilight, approx 6 hours before midnight.

Twilight should be interpreted as "between the evenings" (Ben Ha Arbayim) being from sunset until no more daylight is seen in the sky (beginning of night) ... Exodus 12:6, Numbers 9:3 and Leviticus 23:5-6.

 

[Lulav]

Then why the shock of darkness at the hour of Yeshua's death?

Per the gospels there was three hours of darkness from noon up until 3o'clock when Yeshua said 'it is finished'.

I was proposing that since those in charge at the time were not keeping to the Torah (Deut 16)that G-d sent the darkness to be in compliance with his instructions and to show that this was no ordinary Passover.

You are not allowed to sacrifice the Passover in any of your towns which the L-RD your God is giving you; 6 but at the place where the LORD your God chooses to establish His name, you shall sacrifice the Passover in the evening at sunset, at the time that you came out of Egypt. 7"You shall cook and eat it in the place which the L-RD your God chooses.​

except in the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name. There you must sacrifice the Passover in the evening, when the sun goes down, on the anniversary of your departure from Egypt.​

You must offer it only at the designated place of worship--the place the L-RD your God chooses for his name to be honored. Sacrifice it there in the evening as the sun goes down on the anniversary of your exodus from Egypt.​

but at the place that the L-RD your God will choose, to make his name dwell in it, there you shall offer the Passover sacrifice, in the evening at sunset, at the time you came out of Egypt.

But at the place which the L-RD thy God shall choose to place his name in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt.

It must be offered at the place where the L-RD chooses to be worshiped. Kill the sacrifice at sunset, the time of day when you left Egypt. ​

Even the JPS translates it as

Thou mayest not sacrifice the passover-offering within any of thy gates, which the L-RD thy God giveth thee;but at the place which the L-RD thy God shall choose to cause His name to dwell in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover-offering at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt.​

It's pretty explicit that it should be done at the going down of the sun.

 

[Lulav]

I understand that but the claim was they were in Yerushalayim when Yeshua ate the "last supper". I see no evidence of that since they shunned all large cities such as Yerushalayim was then. They considered them as evil and most if not all had left before Yeshua was even born. Plus they had LARGE problems with the Temple Priesthood as you well know...

What is your proposal of where this had taken place and who was the 'certain man'?

 

[Lulav]

True, but as I said, when you say "twilight", it could mean the time between dawn and sunrise or between sunset and dusk, a very short time period. The lambs were killed during the afternoon hours on the 14th.

Please see my post here.

True that there were many lambs to be slain but each was for a family of a certain size so that it could be eaten before midnight. It was actually the man of the house or family that would slaughter the lamb with the priests catching the blood and dashing it at the foot of the altar.

Now a careful read of the requirements shows that All Israel must slay the lamb, not the priests. So at some time the Pharisees must have come up with a 'tradition' that they had to be involved and that the slaying had to be at the temple. However the 'place' that G-d choose to place his name was all of Jerusalem.

When these instructions were given there was no temple nor any plans for one, that didn't come until Davids time and wasn't realized until his son Solomon's time. I personally don't think there was supposed to be a Temple but only the Miskan, the Tabernacle.

 

[Lulav]

I understand that but the claim was they were in Yerushalayim when Yeshua ate the "last supper". I see no evidence of that since they shunned all large cities such as Yerushalayim was then. They considered them as evil and most if not all had left before Yeshua was even born. Plus they had LARGE problems with the Temple Priesthood as you well know...

But the Torah says that there are three times a year that a man is to present himself to the L--RD in the place he chooses. Jerusalem was the place he choose.

So if they weren't in Jerusalem at Passover they would be sinning against G-d which is in exact opposite of their strictness of keeping Torah.

So even if they only went there during the feasts of Passover, Shavuot and Tabernacles to say they were not there would be equivalent to calling them sinners.

 

[Lulav]

As was John the baptizer

Yes, it is presumed. Yeshua said that John did not drink or eat like he did but that doesn't mean he was a Nazorite. He could have been referring to John being of the Essenes which by their monastic lifestyle would fit more closely than that he was a Nazorite.