7th Trumpet Rapture?

[BABerean2]

3. The resurrection of the dead was an Old Testament doctrine John 6:40; Hebrews 6:1-2.
Daniel 12:3-4 is a resurrection of the dead believers and a resurrection of dead unbelievers. These are participants of the First Resurrection; Revelation 20:4-6 and the Second Resurrection Revelation 20:12-15. They are 1000 years apart Revelation 20:5.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

.

 

[jerry kelso]

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

.

baberean2,

1. Do you think you really have a valid point of some kind to prove something? Let’s see it. Jerry Kelso

 

[Truth7t7]

truth7t7,

1. Do you really lack the simple understanding of what I actually said?

2. See, what you don’t understand is that Jesus taught the Old Covenant under the KoH and the KoG message Matthew 4:17; 6:33; Luke 17:20-21.

3. The resurrection of the dead was an Old Testament doctrine John 6:40; Hebrews 6:1-2.
Daniel 12:3-4 is a resurrection of the dead believers and a resurrection of dead unbelievers. These are participants of the First Resurrection; Revelation 20:4-6 and the Second Resurrection Revelation 20:12-15. They are 1000 years apart Revelation 20:5.

4. Revelation 5:9-11; souls under the altar are martyrs and cannot get vengeance until their fellow brethren die, which are the tribulation martyrs. This composes the blessed dead and those who sing the Song of Moses and the Lamb Revelation 15:1-2.

5. The Old Testament doctrine of the dead does not contain living believers because it was a mystery to them. Read 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 when Paul revealed this.
This means that 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is a New Testament doctrine not the Old Testament.
As far as Post tribute rapture there is none and you have no proof.

6. Btw, I never said there was no last day, but they are dead believers only.
The fact that the rapture of living and dead believers was a mystery and is a New Testament doctrine and the fact that you can’t show both companies are at the last day is just a few reasons why you are totally off base.
Quit having tunnel vision and believe the truth.
The second coming doesn’t have anything to do with living and dead in Christ being raptured together at the same time.
The Second Coming is about the Heavenly saints of Old and New Testament that have been made complete together Hebrews 11:40. Is about saints coming out of Heaven to go to war at Armageddon not being resurrected.

7. You can disagree but you cannot successively rebut the scriptures and their context that I gave. Jerry kelso

Jerry you disregard the scripture below, why?

There ya go Jerry, trying to pawn off that the resurrection of the dead in Christ seen does not apply to John 6:40 below, a teaching in complete error!

There are two groups seen!

1.) The dead in Christ, those in the grave being "Resurrected"

2.) Those that are alive remaining are "caught up"

How long will you deny this basic scriptural truth?

Jerry you keep claiming a pre-trib rapture, no such thing in scripture.

You claim others are negligent with the scriptures, you ever consider that you have been looking in a mirror.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is the dispy claim of a pretrib rapture, you will closely note the "Resurrection" of the dead in Christ.

John 6:40 clearly teaches the dead in Christ are "Resurrected" on the last day.

Jerry you teach in error that this last day does not apply to the verses above?

100% error.

Jerry you clearly disregard this scriptural truth, trying desperately to keep the false teaching of a pre-trib rapture alive.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

John 6:40KJV
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[iamlamad]

iamlamad,

1. That is not possible because the church age saints are in Heaven Revelation 4 and 5 before the lamb begins to open the seals.

2. The antichrist is coming to power in the first four seals and the martyrs in the fifth seal will be the result of all the killing spree and famine etc.

3. They have to wait for their fellow brethren who have to be killed which are the tribulations saints in the time of Jacob’s trouble Revelation 15:1-2.

4. The seals, trumpets and vials are opened consecutively.
Revelation 5:9-10 are the church age saints represented by the 24 elders. They will reign as Kings, Priests and Rulers in the kingdom to come. Jerry Kelso

Point 1 is a myth. You have no scripture to back it up. Rev. 4:1 is JOHN being called up for the purpose of seeing the future so He could write. If you study chapters 4 & 5, they tell a story of timing and the movement of time. And it ends with the very time Jesus ascended first, after rising from the dead. This sets the TIMING for the first seals. Seals 1-5 were opened as soon as Jesus ascended. Don't take my word for it, SEARCH and try to find 2000 years hidden anywhere in the last part of chapter 5: it is just not there.
Seal 1: the CHURCH sent out with the GOSPEL
Seals 2-4: the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the church. they are limited to 1/4 of the earth's surface.
Seal 5: the martyrs of the church age.

The first hint of a long wait is finally seen at the 5th seal. STephen and James were surely in that group. They were told they most wait until the last church age martyr come in, so they must wait for the church age to end. The next event after the 5th seal, NOT SHOWN or written, will be the rapture. John was not allowed to see it, so did not write about it. Then right after the rapture, the 6th seal begins judgment.

Point 2 above is myth. The timing is 32 AD. You are pulling the seals OUT of their context. God back and study chapters 4 & 5: the context is the timing Jesus ascended. Anyway, John used the color white 17 times: 16 other times to represent righteousness. There is absolutely NO WAY the Holy spirit would use white one out of 16 times for evil.

Point 3 is a myth. You are jumping FAR FAR ahead of John and the Holy Spirit. John saw this vision in 95 AD and the Holy Spirit started to take John through history starting then. Here you are on 2018 thinking most of the book is future. It is not. Future does not begin until the 6th seal.

4. The seals, trumpets and vials are opened consecutively. Finally, I can agree with you here!

 

[iamlamad]

Jerry you disregard the scripture below, why?

There ya go Jerry, trying to pawn off that the resurrection of the dead in Christ seen does not apply to John 6:40 below, a teaching in complete error!

There are two groups seen!

1.) The dead in Christ, those in the grave being "Resurrected"

2.) Those that are alive remaining are "caught up"

How long will you deny this basic scriptural truth?

Jerry you keep claiming a pre-trib rapture, no such thing in scripture.

You claim others are negligent with the scriptures, you ever consider that you have been looking in a mirror.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is the dispy claim of a pretrib rapture, you will closely note the "Resurrection" of the dead in Christ.

John 6:40 clearly teaches the dead in Christ are "Resurrected" on the last day.

Jerry you teach in error that this last day does not apply to the verses above?

100% error.

Jerry you clearly disregard this scriptural truth, trying desperately to keep the false teaching of a pre-trib rapture alive.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

John 6:40KJV
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

"Jerry you keep claiming a pre-trib rapture, no such thing in scripture.
There IS such a thing, but your preconceived glasses have prevented you from seeing it.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is the dispy claim of a pretrib rapture, you will closely note the "Resurrection" of the dead in Christ. Yes, the dead in Christ are certainly resurrected at this time, PRETRIB.

John 6:40 clearly teaches the dead in Christ are "Resurrected" on the last day.' Yes, I agree, the OLD TESTAMENT saints rise up on the last 24 hour day of the 70th week, at the 7th vial. Jesus was talking with Jewish men about the end of THEIR age.

The church age ends at the pretrib rapture.

 

[jerry kelso]

Jerry you disregard the scripture below, why?

There ya go Jerry, trying to pawn off that the resurrection of the dead in Christ seen does not apply to John 6:40 below, a teaching in complete error!

There are two groups seen!

1.) The dead in Christ, those in the grave being "Resurrected"

2.) Those that are alive remaining are "caught up"

How long will you deny this basic scriptural truth?

Jerry you keep claiming a pre-trib rapture, no such thing in scripture.

You claim others are negligent with the scriptures, you ever consider that you have been looking in a mirror.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is the dispy claim of a pretrib rapture, you will closely note the "Resurrection" of the dead in Christ.

John 6:40 clearly teaches the dead in Christ are "Resurrected" on the last day.

Jerry you teach in error that this last day does not apply to the verses above?

100% error.

Jerry you clearly disregard this scriptural truth, trying desperately to keep the false teaching of a pre-trib rapture alive.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

John 6:40KJV
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

truth7t7,

2. You are wrong. I didn’t say that the resurrection of the dead wasn’t true in John 6:40.
You must be dreaming!
I said John 6:40 is the resurrected of the dead.
The dead will be raised at the last day. This is what the First Resurrection is (Resurrection of the dead).
John 6:40 and Revelation 15:1-2 are both the resurrection of the Dead.
They are not a part of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 which is the resurrection of the dead and resurrection of the living believers.
1 Corinthians 15:50; Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Verse 51: Behold I show you a MYSTERY, We shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed, Verse 52; In a moment , in the twinkling Of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed.

3. The resurrection of living believers was a mystery.
Jesus taught the Old Covenant and taught the resurrection of the dead only. He never mentioned about living believers being resurrected otherwise Paul would have never said it was a mystery.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is not a part of John 6:40.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is Resurrection of the dead that Christ brings with him from Heaven and they shall be raised first and then those which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

4. Why do you keep denying the difference between the resurrection of the dead only John 6:40 which was not a mystery and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-52 of living believers and dead believers which was a mystery?
Why do you deny that the time of the resurrection dead only John 6:40 is not the same time timing as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17;1 Corinthians 15:50-52?

5. John 6:40 is at the last day which is Revelation 15:1-2 which is right before the last 7 vials not on the Day of the Lord.
First Thessalonians 4:15-17, 1 Corinthians 15:50-52 is after the church age is done and raptured.
Revelation 4:1 John is taken up through the door to Heaven and told to come up hither and he would be shown the things hereafter.
The next scene is the Heavenly scene.
Verse 4: And about the Throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting; and they had on their heads crowns of Gold.
Verse 10; The four and 20 elders fall down before him that sat on the throne and worship him that liveth forever and ever and casttheir crowns before the throne....
Revelation 5:9-10: And they sing a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof; for thou wast Alain and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred and tongue and people and nation; And hast made us unto our God Kings, and Priests, AND WE SHALL REIGN ON THE EARTH.
These are the Old Testament and church age saints that are in Heaven and who will reign in the KoH which is prophetic from this time when they are in Heaven.
Face it all you can do is disagree but you cannot rebut the truth that the scriptures show that I gave.
So you are wrong and you will always be wrong because you do not want to face the biblical truth.Jerry kelso

 

[Truth7t7]

"Jerry you keep claiming a pre-trib rapture, no such thing in scripture.
There IS such a thing, but your preconceived glasses have prevented you from seeing it.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is the dispy claim of a pretrib rapture, you will closely note the "Resurrection" of the dead in Christ. Yes, the dead in Christ are certainly resurrected at this time, PRETRIB.

John 6:40 clearly teaches the dead in Christ are "Resurrected" on the last day.' Yes, I agree, the OLD TESTAMENT saints rise up on the last 24 hour day of the 70th week, at the 7th vial. Jesus was talking with Jewish men about the end of THEIR age.

The church age ends at the pretrib rapture.

Nothing in John 6:40 talks about Old Testament saints, your personal "Diversion" from the truth of scripture.

It talks specifically about the "Church", those that received Jesus Christ as Lord.

You clearly disregard this scriptural truth, bending and twisting God's words of truth, trying desperately to keep the false teaching of a pre-trib rapture alive.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

John 6:40KJV
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Truth7t7]

truth7t7,

2. You are wrong. I didn’t say that the resurrection of the dead wasn’t true in John 6:40.
You must be dreaming!
I said John 6:40 is the resurrected of the dead.
The dead will be raised at the last day. This is what the First Resurrection is (Resurrection of the dead).
John 6:40 and Revelation 15:1-2 are both the resurrection of the Dead.
They are not a part of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 which is the resurrection of the dead and resurrection of the living believers.
1 Corinthians 15:50; Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Verse 51: Behold I show you a MYSTERY, We shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed, Verse 52; In a moment , in the twinkling Of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed.

3. The resurrection of living believers was a mystery.
Jesus taught the Old Covenant and taught the resurrection of the dead only. He never mentioned about living believers being resurrected otherwise Paul would have never said it was a mystery.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is not a part of John 6:40.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is Resurrection of the dead that Christ brings with him from Heaven and they shall be raised first and then those which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

4. Why do you keep denying the difference between the resurrection of the dead only John 6:40 which was not a mystery and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-52 of living believers and dead believers which was a mystery?
Why do you deny that the time of the resurrection dead only John 6:40 is not the same time timing as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17;1 Corinthians 15:50-52?

5. John 6:40 is at the last day which is Revelation 15:1-2 which is right before the last 7 vials not on the Day of the Lord.
First Thessalonians 4:15-17, 1 Corinthians 15:50-52 is after the church age is done and raptured.
Revelation 4:1 John is taken up through the door to Heaven and told to come up hither and he would be shown the things hereafter.
The next scene is the Heavenly scene.
Verse 4: And about the Throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting; and they had on their heads crowns of Gold.
Verse 10; The four and 20 elders fall down before him that sat on the throne and worship him that liveth forever and ever and casttheir crowns before the throne....
Revelation 5:9-10: And they sing a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof; for thou wast Alain and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred and tongue and people and nation; And hast made us unto our God Kings, and Priests, AND WE SHALL REIGN ON THE EARTH.
These are the Old Testament and church age saints that are in Heaven and who will reign in the KoH which is prophetic from this time when they are in Heaven.
Face it all you can do is disagree but you cannot rebut the truth that the scriptures show that I gave.
So you are wrong and you will always be wrong because you do not want to face the biblical truth.Jerry kelso

You falsely teach of "Multiple" resurrections of the dead in Christ, a false teaching.

Jerry you bend and twist the scripture trying to make your system of a pre-trib rapture work.

No such thing as a pre-trib rapture found in the scripture.

 

[jerry kelso]

Point 1 is a myth. You have no scripture to back it up. Rev. 4:1 is JOHN being called up for the purpose of seeing the future so He could write. If you study chapters 4 & 5, they tell a story of timing and the movement of time. And it ends with the very time Jesus ascended first, after rising from the dead. This sets the TIMING for the first seals. Seals 1-5 were opened as soon as Jesus ascended. Don't take my word for it, SEARCH and try to find 2000 years hidden anywhere in the last part of chapter 5: it is just not there.
Seal 1: the CHURCH sent out with the GOSPEL
Seals 2-4: the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the church. they are limited to 1/4 of the earth's surface.
Seal 5: the martyrs of the church age.

The first hint of a long wait is finally seen at the 5th seal. STephen and James were surely in that group. They were told they most wait until the last church age martyr come in, so they must wait for the church age to end. The next event after the 5th seal, NOT SHOWN or written, will be the rapture. John was not allowed to see it, so did not write about it. Then right after the rapture, the 6th seal begins judgment.

Point 2 above is myth. The timing is 32 AD. You are pulling the seals OUT of their context. God back and study chapters 4 & 5: the context is the timing Jesus ascended. Anyway, John used the color white 17 times: 16 other times to represent righteousness. There is absolutely NO WAY the Holy spirit would use white one out of 16 times for evil.

Point 3 is a myth. You are jumping FAR FAR ahead of John and the Holy Spirit. John saw this vision in 95 AD and the Holy Spirit started to take John through history starting then. Here you are on 2018 thinking most of the book is future. It is not. Future does not begin until the 6th seal.

4. The seals, trumpets and vials are opened consecutively. Finally, I can agree with you here!

iamlamad,

1. Sorry you are wrong in your assessment.

2. John did see the vision in the 90 A.D.’s.
John did write to the 7 churches of Asia historically.
However, Revelation 1:3 shows the book to be a prophecy. This means the church as a whole age not just historical.

3. Revelation 1:19: write the things which thou hast seen and the things which are and the things which shall be hereafter.
This is timing for the whole book of Revelation.
John only saw the vision of Christ in the middle of the candlesticks. The things which are refer to the present churches and the whole church age because of being a prophecy.

4. After the church age we will be raptured to Heaven. The things hereafter is the scene in Heaven and worshipping by the four beasts Revelation 4:6-9 and the 24 elders who represent the church Revelation 5:9-10.
Chapter 5 is finding the one who could open the seals and it was the lion of the tribe of Judah Revelation 5:5-14.
The rest of the hereafter was the tribulation starting with the seals Revelation 6 on to the trumpet judgements Revelation 8-9-11-12. which is the Wrath of the Lamb Revelation 6:15-17 and the 7 vials which is the Wrath of God Revelation 16:1-2.

5. Revelation is prophetic and shows more in depth than what Daniel showed for he he had to seal up till he stands in his lot.
I can assure you this didn’t happen in John’s day.

6. The Revelation was written in the 90’s and Jesus died and rose again in the thirties.

7. The seals are the antichrist coming on the scene and taking peace from the earth and starving people and killing for their belief in Christ. Revelation 5:9-11

8. Revelation 6:2 has the white horse rider who had a bow and a crown was given to him and he went forth conquering and to conquer.
This has nothing to do with the church sent out to preach the gospel.
Seals 2-4 has nothing to with Satan making advancements on the church limited to a 1/4 Of the earth. You have no scripture to back this up.
Stephen and the others who were martyrs way before John wrote the book of Revelation.
You have no proof of the seals being in the 30’s.
All of these including Stephen being part of the martyred souls under the altar is ridiculous and out of context and is conjecture on your part and has no scriptural basis whatever.

9. John has no reason to take John on a historical excursion about propagating the gospel which doesn’t even fit the scenario of Revelation 6.

10. People try to insert the histrorical context as Jesus being the manchild. But the fulfillment is future and Christ was in the past.
Your scenario is not scriptural and is lie a Preterist gone bad.
Who taught you this? Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

You falsely teach of "Multiple" resurrections of the dead in Christ, a false teaching.

Jerry you bend and twist the scripture trying to make your system of a pre-trib rapture work.

No such thing as a pre-trib rapture found in the scripture.

truth7t7,

You haven’t proven that I am wrong according to the scriptures I gave. All you do is disagree and say I am wrong. Anybody can do that.
Why are even so against a pre-trib rapture? Jerry kelso

 

[Truth7t7]

truth7t7,

You haven’t proven that I am wrong according to the scriptures I gave. All you do is disagree and say I am wrong. Anybody can do that.
Why are even so against a pre-trib rapture? Jerry kelso

There is no pre-trib rapture found in scripture, a false teaching.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 below is the second coming and last day resurrection.

You teach this is a pre-trib rapture, 100% false.

You clearly disregard this scriptural truth, bending and twisting God's words of truth, trying desperately to keep the false teaching of a pre-trib rapture alive.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

John 6:40KJV
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[jerry kelso]

You falsely teach of "Multiple" resurrections of the dead in Christ, a false teaching.

Jerry you bend and twist the scripture trying to make your system of a pre-trib rapture work.

No such thing as a pre-trib rapture found in the scripture.

truth7t7,

1. Once again you are disagreeing and claiming I am wrong but you show no proof of what you are talking about or rebutting me and the svruI have shown. Jerry kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

There is no pre-trib rapture found in scripture, a false teaching.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 below is the second coming and last day resurrection.

You teach this is a pre-trib rapture, 100% false.

You clearly disregard this scriptural truth, bending and twisting God's words of truth, trying desperately to keep the false teaching of a pre-trib rapture alive.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

John 6:40KJV
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

There is no pre-trib rapture found in scripture, a false teaching.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 below is the second coming and last day resurrection.

You teach this is a pre-trib rapture, 100% false.

You clearly disregard this scriptural truth, bending and twisting God's words of truth, trying desperately to keep the false teaching of a pre-trib rapture alive.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

John 6:40KJV
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

truth7t7,
Your posts sound like a tinkling cymbal and they are wrong because you don’t know how to properly exegete scripture and reconcile the scriptures together correctly.
You have already accused me wrongly on what I believed on John 6:40.
You haven’t rebutted the scriptures I gave on the subject but yet you think I’m wrong.
What’s your motive for being against the Pre-trib rapture?
Jerry Kelso

 

[Truth7t7]

truth7t7,

1. Once again you are disagreeing and claiming I am wrong but you show no proof of what you are talking about or rebutting me and the svruI have shown. Jerry kelso

There is no pre-trib rapture found in scripture, a false teaching.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 below is the second coming and last day resurrection.

You teach this is a pre-trib rapture, 100% false.

You clearly disregard this scriptural truth, bending and twisting God's words of truth, trying desperately to keep the false teaching of a pre-trib rapture alive.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

John 6:40KJV
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[jerry kelso]

There is no pre-trib rapture found in scripture, a false teaching.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 below is the second coming and last day resurrection.

You teach this is a pre-trib rapture, 100% false.

You clearly disregard this scriptural truth, bending and twisting God's words of truth, trying desperately to keep the false teaching of a pre-trib rapture alive.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

John 6:40KJV
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

truth7t7,

1. Why do you keep falsely accuse me when you haven’t proved your position by the scripture?

2. You disregard the scriptural fact of the resurrection of the dead is an Old Testament doctrine John 6:40, Hebrews 6:1-2.
You disregard the scriptural fact of living believers being changed in the twinkling of an eye was a mystery to the Old Testament 1 Corinthians 15:50-52.
You disregard the scriptural fact of the rapture of living and dead believers being changed and raptured together is a New Testament doctrine 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 that is before the tribulation Revelation 4:1; 5:9-10.
You disregard the scriptural fact that the last Day Resurrection is not at the second coming on the Day of the Lord Revelation 15:1-2
This is before the 7 vials.
You disregard the scriptural fact that the Old Testament doctrine of the resurrection of the dead on the last day Hebrews 6:1-2; Revelation 15:1-2 is separate than the New Testament doctrine of living and dead believers being raptured in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

3. You are contriving the issue by attaching the living believers to the resurrection of the dead. This is wrong exegesis because they are two separate contexts.
This is called wrongly dividing the word when you loosely contrive, conjecture and try to control the false narrative you purport.
All you are doing is picking and choosing scriptures here and there and try to force them together because of your false perception and false reasoning of what you think is logical to you and you are grossly wrong. Jerry Kelso

 

[iamlamad]

Nothing in John 6:40 talks about Old Testament saints, your personal "Diversion" from the truth of scripture.

It talks specifically about the "Church", those that received Jesus Christ as Lord.

You clearly disregard this scriptural truth, bending and twisting God's words of truth, trying desperately to keep the false teaching of a pre-trib rapture alive.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

John 6:40KJV
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Good bible exegesis demands we learn WHO a scripture is pointed towards. To keep end time doctrine straight, we must learn this. There are scriptures speaking to the Jews and Hebrews, others to the nations, and others to the church. Mix them up and you have "Pot Luck theory," a conglomerational mess that misses the truth of scripture by a country mile.

Question: were any of the Old Testament saints "In Christ?" You know the answer has to be NO! Christ had not come yet. So at the rapture, ONLY the church is involved. Can we find any of the Jewish churches today that John wrote to? No, they were Jewish churches and they disappeared, REPLACED by Gentiles. That is why Paul wrote, "that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in."

God is looking for a number of Gentiles to be come in. Not a number of Jews. I didn't write this, Paul did, under direction of the Holy Spirit. The church today is made up mostly of Gentile believers, because blindness came on the Jews.

So back to John and "the last day." If only the church is "in Christ" then ONLY THE CHURCH will be caught up as per Paul. That leaves the Old Testament saints still under the ground. And exactly as Jesus said, they are raised up at the last day - the last 24 hours of the 70th week of Daniel - the time that is for Daniel's people: the Jews and Hebrews.

The truth is, Jesus was NOT TALKING TO GENTILES in the gospel of John. He said He was sent only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.

It seems you don't read very well. John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 41 The Jews then murmured at him...

Were Gentiles there? No, Jesus was a JEW and was talking to JEWS. They are those that SAW Him with their natural eyes. Jesus was simply NOT TALKING To the Gentile church of Today.

WAKE UP and realize the truth: The Jewish church ended. They all died. Death was not conquered at that time. The Gentile church began. Today God is looking for the fullness of the Gentiles to come in. Paul knew this.

Did you ever consider Matthew 27? "The earth did quake...and the graves were open." this is where God raised the ELDERS of the Old Covenant up. Not all of them, just the elders John saw. And when God raised those who had been dead a long time, it caused a great earthquake. Did you know that when God raises the dead in Christ, it will cause a worldwide earthquake? Imagine when God raises those who died before the flood! When God raises the Old Testament saints, it will be the worst earthquake ever seen on earth. Go and read of the earthquake at the 7th vial, the last 24 hours of the 70th week.

The truth is, we can determine the time of when the dead in Christ rise, and when the Old Testament saints rise, just by the earthquakes John saw. I can see you never thought of that.

Just who do you think that great crowd is, too large to number? John saw them in heaven before the 70th week ever begins. He saw them over 3 1/2 years before the abomination that will divide the week and when the Beast rises. These are the raptured church, JUST raptured before the great earthquake at the 6th seal.

Truth7t7, if I were you, I would dump all your theories into file 13 and start over. On the other hand, perhaps you just have some crazy desire to get left behind, see the Beast and lose your head. I think, if that is your desire, God would leave you behind. After all, when Jesus comes FOR His saints, He is coming for those that are LOOKING FOR HIM. You will be looking for the Beast.

 

[iamlamad]

There is no pre-trib rapture found in scripture, a false teaching.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 below is the second coming and last day resurrection.

You teach this is a pre-trib rapture, 100% false.

You clearly disregard this scriptural truth, bending and twisting God's words of truth, trying desperately to keep the false teaching of a pre-trib rapture alive.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

John 6:40KJV
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

You can put these two scriptures together all you want, trying to make others see your false theories. Anyone can put scriptures together to tell a story: Read the bold print:

Matthew 27:5 And he [Judas Iscariot] ..., went and hanged himself.

Luke 10:37 ... Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

1 Thes 5 18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

Here are three verses, all part of scripture. All speak truth. But taken together in this manner gives us foolishness. They were never meant to be put together.

There is yet another way to look what what Jesus said in John 6. What IS "the last day?" It is "the day of the Lord," an extended period of time that begins with the earthquake at the 6th seal and continues on into the thousand year reign. But we cannot put Paul's rapture into that DAY, because 1 Thes. 4 & 5 show us that Paul's rapture will be the TRIGGER for the start of the Day of the Lord.

If we take scripture for truth, and understand it, there is simply NO POSSIBLE WAY the church will be raised on the "last day." The rapture will come even before "the Day of His wrath," as John put it. Believe it, for it is truth. In John, Jesus was speaking to Jews about end of THEIR days, which will be the end of the 70th week of Daniel.

 

[BABerean2]

truth7t7,

1. Why do you keep falsely accuse me when you haven’t proved your position by the scripture?

2. You disregard the scriptural fact of the resurrection of the dead is an Old Testament doctrine John 6:40, Hebrews 6:1-2.
You disregard the scriptural fact of living believers being changed in the twinkling of an eye was a mystery to the Old Testament 1 Corinthians 15:50-52.
You disregard the scriptural fact of the rapture of living and dead believers being changed and raptured together is a New Testament doctrine 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 that is before the tribulation Revelation 4:1; 5:9-10.
You disregard the scriptural fact that the last Day Resurrection is not at the second coming on the Day of the Lord Revelation 15:1-2
This is before the 7 vials.
You disregard the scriptural fact that the Old Testament doctrine of the resurrection of the dead on the last day Hebrews 6:1-2; Revelation 15:1-2 is separate than the New Testament doctrine of living and dead believers being raptured in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

3. You are contriving the issue by attaching the living believers to the resurrection of the dead. This is wrong exegesis because they are two separate contexts.
This is called wrongly dividing the word when you loosely contrive, conjecture and try to control the false narrative you purport.
All you are doing is picking and choosing scriptures here and there and try to force them together because of your false perception and false reasoning of what you think is logical to you and you are grossly wrong. Jerry Kelso

It only takes two verses from the Book of Revelation to show the tremendous error of your Two Peoples of God doctrine, which was brought to America by John Nelson Darby about the time of the Civil War.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, the Two Peoples of God doctrine falls apart.

.

 

[Truth7t7]

Good bible exegesis demands we learn WHO a scripture is pointed towards. To keep end time doctrine straight, we must learn this. There are scriptures speaking to the Jews and Hebrews, others to the nations, and others to the church. Mix them up and you have "Pot Luck theory," a conglomerational mess that misses the truth of scripture by a country mile.

Question: were any of the Old Testament saints "In Christ?" You know the answer has to be NO! Christ had not come yet. So at the rapture, ONLY the church is involved. Can we find any of the Jewish churches today that John wrote to? No, they were Jewish churches and they disappeared, REPLACED by Gentiles. That is why Paul wrote, "that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in."

God is looking for a number of Gentiles to be come in. Not a number of Jews. I didn't write this, Paul did, under direction of the Holy Spirit. The church today is made up mostly of Gentile believers, because blindness came on the Jews.

So back to John and "the last day." If only the church is "in Christ" then ONLY THE CHURCH will be caught up as per Paul. That leaves the Old Testament saints still under the ground. And exactly as Jesus said, they are raised up at the last day - the last 24 hours of the 70th week of Daniel - the time that is for Daniel's people: the Jews and Hebrews.

The truth is, Jesus was NOT TALKING TO GENTILES in the gospel of John. He said He was sent only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.

It seems you don't read very well. John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 41 The Jews then murmured at him...

Were Gentiles there? No, Jesus was a JEW and was talking to JEWS. They are those that SAW Him with their natural eyes. Jesus was simply NOT TALKING To the Gentile church of Today.

WAKE UP and realize the truth: The Jewish church ended. They all died. Death was not conquered at that time. The Gentile church began. Today God is looking for the fullness of the Gentiles to come in. Paul knew this.

Did you ever consider Matthew 27? "The earth did quake...and the graves were open." this is where God raised the ELDERS of the Old Covenant up. Not all of them, just the elders John saw. And when God raised those who had been dead a long time, it caused a great earthquake. Did you know that when God raises the dead in Christ, it will cause a worldwide earthquake? Imagine when God raises those who died before the flood! When God raises the Old Testament saints, it will be the worst earthquake ever seen on earth. Go and read of the earthquake at the 7th vial, the last 24 hours of the 70th week.

The truth is, we can determine the time of when the dead in Christ rise, and when the Old Testament saints rise, just by the earthquakes John saw. I can see you never thought of that.

Just who do you think that great crowd is, too large to number? John saw them in heaven before the 70th week ever begins. He saw them over 3 1/2 years before the abomination that will divide the week and when the Beast rises. These are the raptured church, JUST raptured before the great earthquake at the 6th seal.

Truth7t7, if I were you, I would dump all your theories into file 13 and start over. On the other hand, perhaps you just have some crazy desire to get left behind, see the Beast and lose your head. I think, if that is your desire, God would leave you behind. After all, when Jesus comes FOR His saints, He is coming for those that are LOOKING FOR HIM. You will be looking for the Beast.

Speaking of "Christians" that are dead, while there are "Christians" living and caught up.

You wind through your imagination, as if your writing a fable.

Nothing in John 6:40 talks about Old Testament saints, your personal "Diversion" from the truth of scripture.

It talks specifically about the "Church", those that received Jesus Christ as Lord.

You clearly disregard this scriptural truth, bending and twisting God's words of truth, trying desperately to keep the false teaching of a pre-trib rapture alive.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

John 6:40KJV
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[jerry kelso]

It only takes two verses from the Book of Revelation to show the tremendous error of your Two Peoples of God doctrine, which was brought to America by John Nelson Darby about the time of the Civil War.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, the Two Peoples of God doctrine falls apart.

.

baberean2,

1. You are so off based it is not even funny.

2. Jeremiah 31:31-34 was not fulfilled with Israel the nation.
That prophecy was under the KoH Matthew 4:17 and the KoG message Matthew 6:33; Luke 17:20-21.
This prophecy was only made with Israel.
If they would have repented Matthew 4:17 as a nation they would have received the KoH reign and had been at the head of the nations. But it was prophesied that they would reject him and they did as a nation Matthew 23:37-39.

3. Jeremiah 31:33; The Lord said he would put his laws into their minds and hearts and he would be the nation’s God and the nation would be his people.
Jeremiah 31:34; says; and they shall teach no more every man his neighbor and every man his brother, saying, KNOW THE LORD: FOR THEY SHALL ALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM UNTO THE GREATEST OF THEM, SAITH THE LORD: FOR I WILL FORGIVE THEIR INIQUITY, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SIN NO MORE.
This has never happened with the nation of Israel. Not in the early church, not in 70 A.D., Not in 1948 till now. And it won’t be that way until the restitution of all things when Christ will come back and step on the Mount of Olives Zechariah 14:4 which correlates with Acts 1:12. This is on the Day of the Lord which is restoration for Israel the nation Roman’s 11:26. Your translation of the word so; all Israel will be saved is wrong because it don’t agree with the context.

4. Hebrews 12:22-24 is spoken to Jewish Christians in the body of Christ with a heavenly calling.
2 Corinthians 3:6-8 is about building on the foundations of the church.
This has nothing to do with the earthly calling of the nation of Israel.
1 Corinthians 10:32 shows the distinctions of Jews, gentiles, and the church of God. You fail to distinguish these and to your detriment.

5. The two peoples of God is about Israel with an earthly calling and the church with a Heavenly calling.
As far as the NC people of God there is only one for we are are all saved by the blood. Jerry Kelso