LDS Were these people excommunicated?

[tampasteve]

There was no such thing as a creed when this was said. Creeds came along long after and frankly--I don't care about them.

OK, but it is relevant to the discussion as it is one thing that separates LDS from most other Christians. Also, the Nicene Creed is a requirement of being a "Christian" on this website. Saying Athansian Christian is an easy way to differentiate LDS from most other Christian types.

A Christian was called a Christian if they believed and followed the teachings of Christ--personally I can no longer consider LDS as Christian in the sense that they do not teach what Jesus taught, only a part of what He taught. Nowhere is there a concept of God being human before He was God and all those other concepts-

I think that is outside the scope of this thread

As for David, I did not say he was not pardoned, I said he can not have exaltation according to LDS believe.

And as I posted, the LDS agree with you so far as I can tell. So it is not a problem as you had mentioned.

 

[mmksparbud]

OK, but it is relevant to the discussion as it is one thing that separates LDS from most other Christians. Also, the Nicene Creed is a requirement of being a "Christian" on this website.

I think that is outside the scope of this thread


And as I posted, the LDS agree with you so far as I can tell. So it is not a problem as you had mentioned.

Yes, we qualify --- I happen to believe what that creed says, but I cannot even remember what it says at the moment. And it still is that there was no creeds at the time the NT was written and what John said, applies to all Christians. To hate, is to murder---God takes hatred very seriously. What I am saying is that by their definition, Joseph Smith could not attain exaltation, nor any of their prophets who espoused racial hared.

 

[tampasteve]

Yes, we qualify --- I happen to believe what that creed says, but I cannot even remember what it says at the moment.

Yeah, it is a long one!

And it still is that there was no creeds at the time the NT was written and what John said, applies to all Christians.

True, the creeds were written later to summarize what all "good" Christians believed. Of course a lot of good believers were tossed out at the same time, for believing something different from the mainstream.

To hate, is to murder---God takes hatred very seriously. What I am saying is that by their definition, Joseph Smith could not attain exaltation, nor any of their prophets who espoused racial hared.

I, not being LDS, will leave that part to them. However, what I am saying is that the verse must have a deeper meaning, must be read in a wider context. Otherwise it would have to mean, as mainstream Christianity would believe, that anyone that hates would not have eternal life and would not make it to Heaven. Exaltation or Heaven, neither are making it at a face value read of the verse.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Yes, we qualify --- I happen to believe what that creed says, but I cannot even remember what it says at the moment. And it still is that there was no creeds at the time the NT was written and what John said, applies to all Christians. To hate, is to murder---God takes hatred very seriously. What I am saying is that by their definition, Joseph Smith could not attain exaltation, nor any of their prophets who espoused racial hared.

LDS readily admit that all men are sinners, undeserving of heaven, and in desperate need of the Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[mmksparbud]

LDS readily admit that all men are sinners, undeserving of heaven, and in desperate need of the Savior Jesus Christ.

This doesn't say all men are sinners--it is specific about hatred.

 

[Jane_Doe]

This doesn't say all men are sinners--it is specific about hatred.

Which is a sin (when referring to racism and many other contexts). We all sin, some people in different ways than others.

 

[mmksparbud]

Which is a sin (when referring to racism and many other contexts). We all sin, some people in different ways than others.

Oh, quite dancing around it--it specifically equates hatred to murder.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Oh, quite dancing around it--it specifically equates hatred to murder.

I'm not dancing around at all: all men are wretched sinners, undeserving of heaven, and in desperate need of the Savior Jesus Christ. It's impossible to be any more blunt and direct on the subject than that.

 

[mmksparbud]

This has nothing to do with general sinning--it is specific to equating hate to murder---that is it---nothing about everyone being sinners. And by that definition---JS, nor anyone that espoused racial hatred can be exalted.

 

[Jane_Doe]

This has nothing to do with general sinning--it is specific to equating hate to murder---that is it---nothing about everyone being sinners. And by that definition---JS, nor anyone that espoused racial hatred can be exalted.

What do you want me to say here @mmksparbud?

That "oh, yeah, no one who espouses unrepentant racial hatred can be exalted, but unrepentant wife beating- that's ok." Or that unrepentant adultery? Or that unrepentant pride? Or that unrepentant bearing false witness? Or that unrepentant taking the Lord's name in vain?

None of those things are ok. LDS believe that *all* sins must be repented of. No unclean can dwell with God.

 

[tampasteve]

@mmksparbud can I change your quote to show what I was saying earlier? This verse is a difficulty for mainstream Christianity as well if we read it at face value. I am not saying the verse is not a difficulty for LDS, I am saying it is a difficulty for all Christians. Therefore, there must be more to the meaning, no?

Your quote: "And by that definition---JS, nor anyone that espoused racial hatred can be exalted."

Changed to: "And by that definition--- anyone that espoused racial hatred cannot go have eternal life.

The verse again : 1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

 

[mmksparbud]

What do you want me to say here @mmksparbud?

That "oh, yeah, no one who espouses unrepentant racial hatred can be exalted, but unrepentant wife beating- that's ok." Or that unrepentant adultery? Or that unrepentant pride? Or that unrepentant bearing false witness? Or that unrepentant taking the Lord's name in vain?

None of those things are ok. LDS believe that *all* sins must be repented of. No unclean can dwell with God.

I don't want you to say anything. I am making a statement I was thinking about that according to your believes, murder is pardonable, but whoever murders can not attain exaltation. Your believes have not stated, that I know of, that anyone who beats their wife, is an unrepentant adulterer, has unrepentant pride, that bears false witness or takes the Lord's name in vain can not attain exaltation. Your believes, however, clearly state that anyone who murders can not reach it. It' not my wording, it is yours. Just following through with what your teaching says.

 

[mmksparbud]

@mmksparbud can I change your quote to show what I was saying earlier? This verse is a difficulty for mainstream Christianity as well if we read it at face value. I am not saying the verse is not a difficulty for LDS, I am saying it is a difficulty for all Christians. Therefore, there must be more to the meaning, no?

Your quote: "And by that definition---JS, nor anyone that espoused racial hatred can be exalted."

Changed to: "And by that definition--- anyone that espoused racial hatred cannot go have eternal life.

The verse again : 1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

The problem is not what does the bible say---that is clear. But with LDS there are levels of eternal life with exaltation being the highest. The question is not what does the bible say but what does the LDS doctrine say--which is a murderer can not obtain the highest level of eternal life, which is exaltation.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I don't want you to say anything. I am making a statement I was thinking about that according to your believes, murder is pardonable, but whoever murders can not attain exaltation. Your believes have not stated, that I know of, that anyone who beats their wife, is an unrepentant adulterer, has unrepentant pride, that bears false witness or takes the Lord's name in vain can not attain exaltation. Your believes, however, clearly state that anyone who murders can not reach it. It' not my wording, it is yours. Just following through with what your teaching says.

Repentance is key.

 

[mmksparbud]

Repentance is key.

Still does not get you exaltation.

 

[tampasteve]

The problem is not what does the bible say---that is clear.

But I am saying is that it is not clear. That is, unless you are saying that any Christian that hates or is/was racist/bigoted will not have eternal life. If that is what you are saying then that is consistent, is that what you are saying? That is what the text reads as on the surface.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Still does not get you exaltation.

@mmksparbud, I nor do other regular LDS folks are not the Judge- Christ is. It is His judgement. I'm sorry if I've not been clear of the Savior's all-encompassing role in LDS theology.

 

[mmksparbud]

But I am saying is that it is not clear. That is, unless you are saying that any Christian that hates or is/was racist/bigoted will not have eternal life. If that is what you are saying then that is consistent, is that what you are saying? That is what the text reads as on the surface.

For Christians,. the key is repentance--even from murder. If you do not turn away from the sin of hatred, then you do not inherit eternal life. To the LDS, a murderer can only be pardoned, and have eternal life--but will never achieve exaltation. For us the gift of God is eternal life with Jesus and God, we are all exalted, that is His gift. The bible does not say that murder will exclude you from being in the presence of God. For us forgiveness is just that--it is total forgiveness--not half forgiveness that gets you eternal life but excludes you from the presence of God and denies you your own world to populate.

 

[Jane_Doe]

For Christians,. the key is repentance--even from murder. If you do not turn away from the sin of hatred, then you do not inherit eternal life. To the LDS, a murderer can only be pardoned, and have eternal life--but will never achieve exaltation. For us the gift of God is eternal life with Jesus and God, we are all exalted, that is His gift. The bible does not say that murder will exclude you from being in the presence of God. For us forgiveness is just that--it is total forgiveness--not half forgiveness that gets you eternal life but excludes you from the presence of God and denies you your own world to populate.

LDS Christians likewise believe repentance is the key to eternal life, to all sins. Christ alone is the Judge.

 

[Rescued One]

Yeah, it is a long one!


True, the creeds were written later to summarize what all "good" Christians believed. Of course a lot of good believers were tossed out at the same time, for believing something different from the mainstream.

I, not being LDS, will leave that part to them. However, what I am saying is that the verse must have a deeper meaning, must be read in a wider context. Otherwise it would have to mean, as mainstream Christianity would believe, that anyone that hates would not have eternal life and would not make it to Heaven. Exaltation or Heaven, neither are making it at a face value read of the verse.

They weren't born again. If they were they, they wouldn't hate. Their sin is not loving God. Anyone who really is a Christian loves God. What is so complicated about that?