LDS Were these people excommunicated?

[Daniel Marsh]

The Church unequivocally condemns racism, including any and all past racism by individuals both inside and outside the Church. In 2006, then Church president Gordon B. Hinckley declared that “no man who makes disparaging remarks concerning those of another race can consider himself a true disciple of Christ. Nor can he consider himself to be in harmony with the teachings of the Church. Let us all recognize that each of us is a son or daughter of our Father in Heaven, who loves all of His children.”

There are many quotes here from LDS Collectors Library from the people I am asking about:
Racist Statements from the Mormon Church – LeeBaker.4Mormon.org

no man who makes disparaging remarks concerning those of another race can consider himself a true disciple of Christ - Norton Safe Search

 

[Hammster]

ADMIN HAT ON


Moved from Denomination-specifc Theology.


ADMIN HAT OFF

 

[Jane_Doe]

I'm seeing a two facts things:
1) You quote an LDS condemn racism. Yes, that's LDS beliefs.
2) You then ask whether don't LDS excommunicate a certain list of people.

Do you automatically excommunicate every sinner at your church? Or do you acknowledge that we are all sinners and cry repentance?

The latter is what LDS do. Do you disagree with this?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

ADMIN HAT ON


Moved from Denomination-specifc Theology.


ADMIN HAT OFF

Thank You,
Daniel

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I'm seeing a two facts things:
1) You quote an LDS condemn racism. Yes, that's LDS beliefs.
2) You then ask whether don't LDS excommunicate a certain list of people.

Do you automatically excommunicate every sinner at your church? Or do you acknowledge that we are all sinners and cry repentance?

The latter is what LDS do. Do you disagree with this?

James 3 Good News Translation (GNT)
The Tongue
3 My friends, not many of you should become teachers. As you know, we teachers will be judged with greater strictness than others.

Leaders are judged at higher standards.

Those who hate others by their fruit are not Christians.

The quotes at the link are Leaders in LDS history past who hated Black People, thus disqualifying them as being Christians. Paul exposed false teachers public like, thus excommunicating them. Paul did not excommunicate Peter, but public to his face corrected him. Jesus often exposed the Pharisees.

The LDS Church excommunicating those who were in the habit of hating black people, would be exposing them. We are told to Mark those who...

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned, and avoid them.

Since, racism is now denounced in the LDS Church, for any non-LDS to take such claims seriously requires public exposure and excommunication of those who were haters. This is consistent with your church Baptizing for the dead. Where is the evidence that those people were chastised for their hate of black people?

Hebrews 12:5-11 ESV / 4 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him. For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.” It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?

1 John 4:20 ESV
If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.

1 John 2:11 ESV
But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

The very fact that they hated black people, which is reflected in their language means that they never were Christians.

 

[Jane_Doe]

James 3 Good News Translation (GNT)
The Tongue
3 My friends, not many of you should become teachers. As you know, we teachers will be judged with greater strictness than others.

Leaders are judged at higher standards.

Those who hate others by their fruit are not Christians.

The quotes at the link are Leaders in LDS history past who hated Black People, thus disqualifying them as being Christians. Paul exposed false teachers public like, thus excommunicating them. Paul did not excommunicate Peter, but public to his face corrected him. Jesus often exposed the Pharisees.

The LDS Church excommunicating those who were in the habit of hating black people, would be exposing them. We are told to Mark those who...

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned, and avoid them.

Since, racism is now denounced in the LDS Church, for any non-LDS to take such claims seriously requires public exposure and excommunication of those who were haters. This is consistent with your church Baptizing for the dead. Where is the evidence that those people were chastised for their hate of black people?

Hebrews 12:5-11 ESV / 4 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him. For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.” It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?

1 John 4:20 ESV
If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.

1 John 2:11 ESV
But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

The very fact that they hated black people, which is reflected in their language means that they never were Christians.

So... you think every person who is a sinner should be excommunicated? Making sure I understand you correctly.

 

[Rescued One]

People who left the false teachings of Mormonism were excommunicated for over a hundred years.

 

[tampasteve]

Sadly people sin, racism is a sin and people commit it even if they do not realize it because of the social situation and history they might have been taught. This does not excuse one from the past, but it must be considered. If we are going to excommunicate all that were racist we are going to have to loose many, many otherwise good Christians; so we cannot simply blame LDS leaders or Prophets alone. Martin Luther was virulently anti-Semitic in writings, as were many other Christians through the ages and we are not going to excommunicate them or say they were not Christians (well, maybe the Catholics would excommunicate Luther, but for different reasons ). The ancient Jewish prophets themselves discriminated against Gentiles and kept slaves. Time and place are factors that must be considered, racism and slavery are an evil and have no place in this world we live in today and the LDS leadership has spoken out against it unequivocally.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Sadly people sin, racism is a sin and people commit it even if they do not realize it because of the social situation and history they might have been taught. This does not excuse one from the past, but it must be considered. If we are going to excommunicate all that were racist we are going to have to loose many, many otherwise good Christians; so we cannot simply blame LDS leaders or Prophets alone. Martin Luther was virulently anti-Semitic in writings, as were many other Christians through the ages and we are not going to excommunicate them or say they were not Christians (well, maybe the Catholics would excommunicate Luther, but for different reasons ). The ancient Jewish prophets themselves discriminated against Gentiles and kept slaves. Time and place are factors that must be considered, racism and slavery are an evil and have no place in this world we live in today and the LDS leadership has spoken out against it unequivocally.

There is a difference between what you wrote(other than Luther On the Jews and Their Lies ) and hate towards others. One who is a Christian does not walk or live in sin continually.

Based on First John, those who taught the curse of cain and thus hated their fellow man, do not walk in the light.

In Fact, Joseph Smith's hate is even in the BoM itself.

The question about individuals is just a rabbit trail. There is a difference between the average person and a church leader or so-called prophet.

Alma 3:6 “And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren…”

3 Nephi 2:15 “And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites;”

3 Nephi 19:30 “And when Jesus had spoken these words he came again unto his disciples; and behold they did pray steadfastly, without ceasing, unto him; and he did smile upon them again; and behold they were white, even as Jesus.”

Note: the real Jesus was Jewish, not white. LOL

2 Nephi 5:21 still says:

“And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, and they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.”


Joseph Smith himself:

Having learned with extreme regret, that an article entitled, 'Free People of Color,' in the last number of the Star has been misunderstood, we feel in duty bound to state, in this Extra, that our intention was not only to stop free people of color from emigrating to this state, but to prevent them from being admitted as members of the Church.

History of the Church, 1:378-79

Had I anything to do with the negro, I would confine them by strict law to their own species and put them on a national equalization.

History of the Church, Vol. 5, pp. 218-19.


In the Messenger and Advocate (vol. 2, no. 7, p. 300, April 1836), Smith declares that slavery was ordained by God and consistent with the gospel of Christ.

“…we unhesitatingly say…the project of emancipation is destructive to our government, and the notion of amalgamation is devilish!-And insensible to feeling must be the heart, and low indeed must be the mind, that would consent for a moment, to see his fair daughter, his sister, or perhaps, his bosom companion, in the embrace of a Negro!

We entreat our brethren of the Eastern, the free States, the Canadas, and all, wherever they may be found, not to be surprised or astonished at this step, which we have thus publicly taken: were they acquainted with the present condition of the slave, they would see that they could not be freed, and we enjoy our present, civil and social societies. And further, that this matter cannot be discussed without exciting the feelings of the black population, and cause them to rise, sooner or later, and lay waste and desolate many parts of the Southern country.

This cannot be done without consigning to the dust thousands of human beings. And the bare reflection of being instrumental in causing unprovoked blood to flow, must shock the heart of every saint.”

What is the "Mark of Cain" in the Book of Mormon?

Moses 5:40
"And I the Lord set a a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him."

But what was this mark?

"For behold, the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the barrenness thereof shall go forth forever; and there was a BLACKNESS came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were DESPISED AMONG ALL PEOPLE." LDS Pearl of Great Price, Moses 7:8

Alma 3:6-9
6 And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a acurse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.
7 And their brethren sought to destroy them, therefore they were cursed; and the Lord God set a amark upon them, yea, upon Laman and Lemuel, and also the sons of Ishmael, and Ishmaelitish women.
8 And this was done that their seed might be distinguished from the seed of their brethren, that thereby the Lord God might preserve his people, that they might not amix and believe in incorrect btraditions which would prove their destruction.
9 And it came to pass that whosoever did mingle his seed with that of the Lamanites did bring the same curse upon his seed.

So, according to the Book of Mormon, not only is dark skin a curse, but interracial relationships are too!

Even more interesting is the changes made. Compare the Book of Mormon (1830 edition), 2 Nephi, Chapter XII, p. 117
"And the Gospel of Jesus Christ shall be declared among them; wherefore, ...their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and delightsome people."

With the current "translation" of 2 Nephi 30:6
"they shall be a pure and a delightsome people."

Why change "white" to "pure?"

What, according to the Book of Mormon, was the "Mark of Cain?"The Book of Mormon - What is the "Mark of Cain" in the Book of Mormon? (showing 1-50 of 66)

Changing World Chapter 10 Part 1
Curse of Cain? Racism in the Mormon Church Part Two
White and Delightsome or Pure and Delightsome? – A Look at 2 Nephi 30:6
Mormon quotes on blacks
Blacks and the Mormon Priesthood
Are Racist LDS Scriptures Still Deemed “Utterly Reliable” and “Pure Truth”? Part 1 | Mormon Coffee
Joseph Smith Founder of LDS Racist Scriptures and Teachings: Part 2 | Mormon Coffee
Brigham Young's Speech on: Slavery, Blacks, and the Priesthood
google Joseph Smith 1830s "mark of cain" statements

 

[Jane_Doe]

There is a difference between what you wrote(other than Luther On the Jews and Their Lies ) and hate towards others. One who is a Christian does not walk or live in sin continually.

Then by your logic, no one on ChristianForums or any where else on the Earth is a Christian. Because we are all sinners. Not just once in our lives, but continually over and over agin.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

First John 2

9 If we say that we are in the light, yet hate others, we are in the darkness to this very hour. 10 If we love others, we live in the light, and so there is nothing in us that will cause someone else to sin. 11 But if we hate others, we are in the darkness; we walk in it and do not know where we are going, because the darkness has made us blind.

12 I write to you, my children, because your sins are forgiven for the sake of Christ. 13 I write to you, fathers, because you know him who has existed from the beginning. I write to you, young people, because you have defeated the Evil One.

1 John 3:15 Those who hate others are murderers, and you know that murderers do not have eternal life in them.

First John 4

19 We love because God first loved us. 20 If we say we love God, but hate others, we are liars. For we cannot love God, whom we have not seen, if we do not love others, whom we have seen. 21 The command that Christ has given us is this: whoever loves God must love others also.

The above demonstrates that people who hated others were living in darkness.

If you do not believe the early LDS Leaders hated black people, then follow the link in my OP. Scroll down to the quotes.

 

[Jane_Doe]

First John 2

9 If we say that we are in the light, yet hate others, we are in the darkness to this very hour. 10 If we love others, we live in the light, and so there is nothing in us that will cause someone else to sin. 11 But if we hate others, we are in the darkness; we walk in it and do not know where we are going, because the darkness has made us blind.

12 I write to you, my children, because your sins are forgiven for the sake of Christ. 13 I write to you, fathers, because you know him who has existed from the beginning. I write to you, young people, because you have defeated the Evil One.

1 John 3:15 Those who hate others are murderers, and you know that murderers do not have eternal life in them.

First John 4

19 We love because God first loved us. 20 If we say we love God, but hate others, we are liars. For we cannot love God, whom we have not seen, if we do not love others, whom we have seen. 21 The command that Christ has given us is this: whoever loves God must love others also.

The above demonstrates that people who hated others were living in darkness.

If you do not believe the early LDS Leaders hated black people, then follow the link in my OP. Scroll down to the quotes.

Daniel, I can't ask questions of the people you linked. Hence, I'm asking you your understanding things, and that's what I find interesting. Part of this me getting to know you. That our beliefs aren't the same, I still think we can talk about our differences in beliefs honestly with each other. If my questions prompt you to study deeper into your beliefs, isn't that a good thing? The same goes for me.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Then by your logic, no one on ChristianForums or any where else on the Earth is a Christian. Because we are all sinners. Not just once in our lives, but continually over and over agin.

It is not my logic it is God's logic, read it for yourself.

First John 3

6 So everyone who lives in union with Christ does not continue to sin; but whoever continues to sin has never seen him or known him.

7 Let no one deceive you, my children! Whoever does what is right is righteous, just as Christ is righteous. 8 Whoever continues to sin belongs to the Devil, because the Devil has sinned from the very beginning. The Son of God appeared for this very reason, to destroy what the Devil had done.

9 Those who are children of God do not continue to sin, for God's very nature is in them; and because God is their Father, they cannot continue to sin. 10 Here is the clear difference between God's children and the Devil's children: those who do not do what is right or do not love others are not God's children.

Phillips words the bold area like this "The man who lives a consistently good life is a good man, as surely as God is good. But the man whose life is habitually sinful is spiritually a son of the devil, for the devil is behind all sin, as he always has been. Now the Son of God came to earth with the express purpose of liquidating the devil’s activities. The man who is really God’s son does not practise sin, for God’s nature is in him, for good, and such a heredity is incapable of sin."

AMP like this, "
1 John 3:6-10 Amplified Bible (AMP)
6 No one who abides in Him [who remains united in fellowship with Him—deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin. No one who habituallysins has seen Him or known Him. 7 Little children (believers, dear ones), do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who practices righteousness [the one who strives to live a consistently honorable life—in private as well as in public—and to conform to God’s precepts] is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 The one who practices sin [separating himself from God, and offending Him by acts of disobedience, indifference, or rebellion] is of the devil [and takes his inner character and moral values from him, not God]; for the devil has sinned and violated God’s law from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin, because God’s seed [His principle of life, the essence of His righteous character] remains [permanently] in him [who is born again—who is reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, and set apart for His purpose]; and he [who is born again] cannot habitually [live a life characterized by] sin, because he is born of God and longs to please Him. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are clearly identified: anyone who does not practice righteousness [who does not seek God’s will in thought, action, and purpose] is not of God, nor is the one who does not [unselfishly] love his [believing] brother."

1 John 3:6-10 Contemporary English Version (CEV)
6 and people who stay one in their hearts with him won’t keep on sinning. If they do keep on sinning, they don’t know Christ, and they have never seen him.

7 Children, don’t be fooled. Anyone who does right is good, just like Christ himself. 8 Anyone who keeps on sinning belongs to the devil. He has sinned from the beginning, but the Son of God came to destroy all that he has done. 9 God’s children cannot keep on being sinful. His life-giving power[a] lives in them and makes them his children, so that they cannot keep on sinning. 10 You can tell God’s children from the devil’s children, because those who belong to the devil refuse to do right or to love each other.

1 John 3:6-10 Expanded Bible (EXB)
6 So anyone who ·lives [abides; remains] in ·Christ [L him] does not ·go on sinning [or sin; C the Christian ideal, an implicit call to avoid sin]. Anyone who ·goes on sinning [or sins] has ·never really understood Christ and has never known him [L neither seen him nor known him].

7 Dear children [2:1], do not let anyone ·lead you the wrong way [deceive you]. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as ·Christ [L he] is righteous. 8 Anyone who ·continues to sin [or sins] belongs to the devil [John 8:44], because the devil has been sinning since the beginning. The Son of God ·came [was revealed; appeared] for this purpose: to destroy the devil’s work [Matt. 4:1–11; 12:25–29; Luke 10:18; John 12:31; Rev. 12:7–12; 20:1–3].

9 ·Those [L All] who are ·God’s children [L born of/begotten by God; 2:29] do not ·continue sinning [or sin], because ·the new life from God [or God’s message; or God’s Spirit; L his seed/sperm] ·remains [abides] in them. They are not able to ·go on sinning [or sin], because they ·have become children of God [L are born of/begotten by God]. 10 ·So we can see [L In this way it is apparent/revealed/evident] who God’s children are and who the devil’s children are: Those who do not ·do what is right [practice righteousness] are not ·God’s children [L from/of God], and those who do not love their brothers and sisters are not ·God’s children [L from/of God].

1 John 3:6-10 The Passion Translation (TPT)
6 But the one who continues sinning[a] hasn’t seen him with discernment or known him by intimate experience.

7 Delightfully loved children, don’t let anyone divert you from this truth. The person who keeps doing what is right proves that he is righteous before God, even as the Messiah is righteous. 8 But the one who indulges in a sinful life is of the devil,[c] because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God was revealed was to undo and destroy the works of the devil.

9 Everyone who is truly God’s child will refuse to keep sinning[d] because God’s seed[e] remains within him, and he is unable to continue sinning because he has been fathered by God himself.[f] 10 Here is how God’s children can be clearly distinguished from the children of the Evil One.[g] Anyone who does not demonstrate righteousness[h] and show love to fellow believers is not living with God as his source.

1 John 3:6-10 The Message (MSG)
4-6 All who indulge in a sinful life are dangerously lawless, for sin is a major disruption of God’s order. Surely you know that Christ showed up in order to get rid of sin. There is no sin in him, and sin is not part of his program. No one who lives deeply in Christ makes a practice of sin. None of those who do practice sin have taken a good look at Christ. They’ve got him all backward.

7-8 So, my dear children, don’t let anyone divert you from the truth. It’s the person who acts right who is right, just as we see it lived out in our righteous Messiah. Those who make a practice of sin are straight from the Devil, the pioneer in the practice of sin. The Son of God entered the scene to abolish the Devil’s ways.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Daniel, I can't ask questions of the people you linked. Hence, I'm asking you your understanding things, and that's what I find interesting. Part of this me getting to know you. That our beliefs aren't the same, I still think we can talk about our differences in beliefs honestly with each other. If my questions prompt you to study deeper into your beliefs, isn't that a good thing? The same goes for me.

Thank You, I grew up in Inkster Michigan as such I know hate filled language when I see it. Those quotes are all long enough to give context. What I see in those quotes are people who hate big time. Unfortunately they were the founding prophets of the LDS Church.
The fact, that JS hate spilled over into the BOM makes anything by JS an invalid source for truth. The fact that BY continued that hate rules him out as a source of truth too. Because of that hate according to first John, neither of them walked in the true light of Jesus. We all know that Satan can appear as an angel of light to deceive people.

The Bible in First John clearly teaches that those who hate others are not of God. That can only mean one claiming to be a prophet of God never heard from God. We know from Hebrews that God disciplines his Children. I do not see God disciplining early LDS Prophets or Leaders for that ongoing sin of hate towards black people.

My lovely wife is home, read the book of first John online in the different translations I quoted. That may be a positive way to go in another thread.

 

[Jane_Doe]

The Bible in First John clearly teaches that those who hate others are not of God. That can only mean one claiming to be a prophet of God never heard from God.

I am striving to understand your logic here.

Are you saying that you believe someone who preaches hate is not of Christ, as are all people who follow him?

 

[tampasteve]

There is a difference between what you wrote(other than Luther On the Jews and Their Lies ) and hate towards others. One who is a Christian does not walk or live in sin continually.

No, there isn't; and the copy and paste litany does not change that in my mind. Bigotry and racism have been present in essentially all schools and denominations of Christianity, fortunately we have started to put that behind us, including the LDS church. If you want to somehow justify it in churches other than the LDS, that somehow it is on a different level, that is upon you; but to me sin is sin, hate is a sin, therefore if one hates that is sinning. One can be forgiven of sin.

 

[tampasteve]

read the book of first John online in the different translations I quoted. That may be a positive way to go in another thread.

Just as a side note, several of the translations you posted are not really scholarly translations and should not be used in debate or discussion like this. I am not necessarily debating what you are trying to posit. I am saying that it is better to quote from the mainstream recognized versions such as KJV, RSV, ESV, and NASB. As an example, "The Passion Translation" is not really a translation but is rather a paraphrase by a single author, Brian Simmons. The webpage for it for it clearly states that "words need to be changed" to fit his interpretation of the passage. "The Message" has similar issues. These Bibles can be very helpful in personal study, but not in discussions like this.

 

[mmksparbud]

No, there isn't; and the copy and paste litany does not change that in my mind. Bigotry and racism have been present in essentially all schools and denominations of Christianity, fortunately we have started to put that behind us, including the LDS church. If you want to somehow justify it in churches other than the LDS, that somehow it is on a different level, that is upon you; but to me sin is sin, hate is a sin, therefore if one hates that is sinning. One can be forgiven of sin.

The interesting thing about LDS doctrine on this is that a murderer can not be forgiven for the sin of murder. David can not be exalted for he is a murderer. That poses a bit of a problem---

1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
So if those past prophets hated blacks---they can not be exalted.

 

[tampasteve]

The interesting thing about LDS doctrine on this is that a murderer can not be forgiven for the sin of murder. David can not be exalted for he is a murderer. That poses a bit of a problem---

1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
So if those past prophets hated blacks---they can not be exalted.

Since that scripture is from the NT can you point me to why it would also not apply to Athanasian Christians? Read at face value it would include not just the Prophets you mention, but countless Athanasian Christians.

As for murder and King David in particular in LDS theology, here is a pretty good sumamary that I think clarifies it from that point of view:
Mormon Doctrine: Can Murder Be Forgiven?

David received a promise that the Lord would not leave his soul in hell—which is the process of suffering for one’s own sins in the Spirit World before resurrection and final judgment. Thus, David has not been forgiven, but will be pardoned. Thus, murder is not forgivable, but it is pardonable. Murderers will suffer for their own sins, meaning they are unforgiven, but they will not be completely cast outside the influence of God’s glory in the life to come, if they do try to repent.
​

Essentially, God can decide if one is able to be forgiven, as murder is unforgivable but not unpardonable. Compared to blasphemy of the HS, which is both unforgivable and unpardonable.

 

[mmksparbud]

Since that scripture is from the NT can you point me to why it would also not apply to Athanasian Christians? Read at face value it would include not just the Prophets you mention, but countless Athanasian Christians.

As for murder and King David in particular in LDS theology, here is a pretty good sumamary that I think clarifies it from that point of view:
Mormon Doctrine: Can Murder Be Forgiven?

David received a promise that the Lord would not leave his soul in hell—which is the process of suffering for one’s own sins in the Spirit World before resurrection and final judgment. Thus, David has not been forgiven, but will be pardoned. Thus, murder is not forgivable, but it is pardonable. Murderers will suffer for their own sins, meaning they are unforgiven, but they will not be completely cast outside the influence of God’s glory in the life to come, if they do try to repent.
​

Essentially, God can decide if one is able to be forgiven, as murder is unforgivable but not unpardonable. Compared to blasphemy of the HS, which is both unforgivable and unpardonable.

There was no such thing as a creed when this was said. Creeds came along long after and frankly--I don't care about them. A Christian was called a Christian if they believed and followed the teachings of Christ--personally I can no longer consider LDS as Christian in the sense that they do not teach what Jesus taught, only a part of what He taught. Nowhere is there a concept of God being human before He was God and all those other concepts---What John said applies to all men not to those who believe in a certain creed.
As for David, I did not say he was not pardoned, I said he can not have exaltation according to LDS believe.