The Pastor King (New)

[truefiction1]

"Thus, the bread of the eucharist is Christ’s flesh, and Christ’s flesh is the eucharistic bread. The two are brought together into one. ”"(The Orthodox Faith - Volume II - Worship - The Sacraments - Holy Eucharist)

you cannot hide from this

Who's hiding? We're just believing Christ and doing as He says to do.

 

[truefiction1]

again, you just ignored most of my points and went off on a rant and still try to support the false division of Clergy/laity so called

No, your posts are simply full of slander and falsehood mixed with a little bit of truth. They are simply concocted tales and fake history not based in what is really True about the inner workings of the Orthodox Church and the presence of the Holy Spirit in Her.

 

[truefiction1]

do you agree with this?

"The Orthodox Church denies the doctrine that the Body and the Blood of the eucharist are merely intellectual or psychological symbols of Christ’s Body and Blood. If this doctrine were true, when the liturgy is celebrated and holy communion is given, the people would be called merely to think about Jesus and to commune with him “in their hearts.” In this way, the eucharist would be reduced to a simple memorial meal of the Lord’s last supper, and the union with God through its reception would come only on the level of thought or psychological recollection.

On the other hand, however, the Orthodox tradition does use the term “symbols” for the eucharistic gifts. It calls, the service a “mystery” and the sacrifice of the liturgy a “spiritual and bloodless sacrifice.” These terms are used by the holy fathers and the liturgy itself.

The Orthodox Church uses such expressions because in Orthodoxy what is real is not opposed to what is symbolical or mystical or spiritual. On the contrary! In the Orthodox view, all of reality—the world and man himself—is real to the extent that it is symbolical and mystical, to the extent that reality itself must reveal and manifest God to us. Thus, the eucharist in the Orthodox Church is understood to be the genuine Body and Blood of Christ precisely because bread and wine are the mysteries and symbols of God’s true and genuine presence and manifestation to us in Christ. Thus, by eating and drinking the bread and wine which are mystically consecrated by the Holy Spirit, we have genuine communion with God through Christ who is himself “the bread of life” (Jn 6.34, 41).

I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh (Jn 6.51).

Thus, the bread of the eucharist is Christ’s flesh, and Christ’s flesh is the eucharistic bread. The two are brought together into one. The word “symbolical” in Orthodox terminology means exactly this: “to bring together into one.”"(The Orthodox Faith - Volume II - Worship - The Sacraments - Holy Eucharist)

Yes, by the Holy Spirit I agree with it.

 

[truefiction1]

Those who teach that Christ is not present in the Eucharist teach a lie to the little ones who believe in Christ so as to cause them to stumble. It would be better for such teachers to have a large millstone hung around their necks and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

 

[truefiction1]

Those who teach that Christ is not present in the Eucharist teach a lie to the little ones who believe in Christ so as to cause them to stumble. It would be better for such teachers to have a large millstone hung around their necks and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

 

[LoveofTruth]

But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea." (Matthew 18:2-8)

Two very important things concerning this lesson in Scripture:
1) As a child who must simply trust their caregivers, and who cannot engage in the adult manner of rational abstraction, they simply take what they hear on innocent faith.
2) Ignatius of Antioch (the bishop who whose letter was quoted earlier as evidence of the early Church belief in the real presence) was the child whom Jesus had called to stand among them.

Those who teach that Christ is not present in the Eucharist teach a lie to the little ones who believe in Christ so as to cause them to stumble. It would be better for such teachers to have a large millstone hung around their necks and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

When Jesus says,

Luke 13:32
"And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected."

Would you read this to a child and have them believe that Jesus spoke to foxes, literally? and that some men are literally a fox?

Do you simply take Jesus literally here. If so then you must teach that Jesus spoke to a fox and he told others to go and talk to foxes.

Jesus said similar with another verse, (if you take it literally)

Matthew 8:20
"And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head."

a child would understand that like that.

Jesus spoke spiritual things only for those with spiritual ears and eyes to hear and see

Matthew 13:13
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand."

and so

"1 Corinthians 13:11 [Full Chapter]
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."

Jesus is speaking about becoming like a child in faith and their eagerness to hear and believe the Father.

If a child was to read these verses how do you explain them to them? If they simply believe Jesus is a literal vine (John 15:1), or door (John 10:9), or Lamb (John 1:36), LITERALLY?

you confound yourself here and fall into your own trap.

How also would you explain this to a little child?

Judges 9:8
The trees went forth on a time to anoint a king over them; and they said unto the olive tree, Reign thou over us."

can you take it literally with a child? If so all the trees can have kings and talk and anoint each other. Jesus obviously spoke spiritual language that carnal men could not understand.

all the symbols and types are just that shadows of the reality.

Hebrews 10:1
"For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect."

Colossians 2:17
Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."

Hebrews 9:9
"Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;"

and a rebuke to any man made thing with their hands we read

"
Hebrews 9:24
"For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:"

this would include any of your bread or icons etc.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Those who teach that Christ is not present in the Eucharist teach a lie to the little ones who believe in Christ so as to cause them to stumble. It would be better for such teachers to have a large millstone hung around their necks and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

What I teach my children and other children, is that Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh. That God came down among us, this is the Son of God Jesus Christ. He is fully God and fully man. I teach them that The Old Testament ( before jesus came in the flesh to earth) had symbols and shadows of the reality of Jesus Christ. I explain that a shadow is just that, not the reality. Then I stand up and show them my shadow on the floor. I ask them, do you see me clearly with the shadow? They say no. Then I say thats what the Old Testament had, they had a lamb that was killed for their sin. But this was a shadow of Jesus Christ the reality who came and died for their sin. So if we say that Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God, we do not mean he is literally a lamb. But that we are reminded of the lambs that were killed for sin in the Old testament and they are shadows of Jesus Christ who is the true sacrifice for sin. I can also explain what Jesus meant when he said he is the bread from heaven, not as the bread (literal bread) they ate in the desert with Moses. I explain what he means when he says eat my flesh and drink my blood. And by the way many were offended when Jesus said that at the time he said it.

Then I ask them "are you a real sheep?" they would laugh and say no. I say well the bible calls us sheep of His pasture and Jesus said he has many sheep. What do you think he meant by that? They might say, after having been taught that they are "LIKE" sheep

I say that is right and here is a verse that proves we are not literal sheep, but "like" sheep. Jesus said,

Matthew 10:16
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves."

Psalm 44:11
"Thou hast given us like sheep appointed for meat; and hast scattered us among the heathen."

I ask them "is Jesus really sending us into a real wolf pack?" they laugh and say, no, so who are the wolves and dogs that we are to beware of. They may say false men that are like wolves. And I would point them to the pharisees and the legalist who are called dogs and like wolves. And any who are similar to them today.

I also ask them, are we to be a literal serpent? they laugh and say, no, but "as" or "like" serpents" in our wisdom. I then explain what that means.

but these things are so basic, your trying hard to defend your entire religious group, but they come short every time.

Try and tell a child of other scriptures about "propitiation", "justification", "redemption", "sanctification" and see if they have a clue what you are talking about.

Tell children this verse and see how they respond to Jesus. If you do not interpret this they may run from Jesus

Revelation 2:23
And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works."

 

[LoveofTruth]

Yes, by the Holy Spirit I agree with it.

then I was right in warning you and correcting you of your error for you believe this

"the bread of the eucharist is Christ’s flesh, and Christ’s flesh is the eucharistic bread."

this is error

 

[LoveofTruth]

No, your posts are simply full of slander and falsehood mixed with a little bit of truth. They are simply concocted tales and fake history not based in what is really True about the inner workings of the Orthodox Church and the presence of the Holy Spirit in Her.

All I need and use for my strength is the Spirit of God and the scriptures as i have been showing you.

scripture pulls down your entire stronghold and religion.

yes there are some truths among your groups and many believers. But some of the errors are so serious that I would caution all to flee from such groups according to scripture.

"come out of her my people"

 

[LoveofTruth]

Who's hiding? We're just believing Christ and doing as He says to do.

Jesus told some to eat His flesh and drink his blood right there in John 6. How come not one tore his flesh apart and drank His blood right there? They could have said "we were just doing as Jesus said to do.

...because that is not what Jesus meant.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Who's hiding? We're just believing Christ and doing as He says to do.

and we haven't even touched on your view of salvation, the true gospel and water baptism yet....

or actually we did just touch on those

 

[Wordkeeper]

and we haven't even touched on your view of salvation, the true gospel and water baptism yet....

or actually we did just touch on those

Good thread, although the title was not very informative.

I suppose the aim of the teaching would be to spread the responsibility of teaching to all the members of the holy nation, the royal priesthood, a people belonging to God.

Would this improve the quality of teaching or do the opposite?

Maybe an expansion of 1 Cor 15 by you will tell us the answer.

1 Corinthians 15:3-8
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importancea : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Cephas,b and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.


Disclosure: I have been following Frank, George and Neil closely.

 

[Rhamiel]

Yes, by the Holy Spirit I agree with it.

The Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and the Roman Catholic Churches all agree that the Eucharist is the true Body and Blood of Jesus Christ

 

[LoveofTruth]

Good thread, although the title was not very informative.

I suppose the aim of the teaching would be to spread the responsibility of teaching to all the members of the holy nation, the royal priesthood, a people belonging to God.

Would this improve the quality of teaching or do the opposite?
.

Hello Nice to meet you.

Yes teaching will improve in the body ministry of the church when gathered. I have seen some who had teaching gifts sit in assemblies with a one man over them and they do not much , just sit there. But when they came into a home meeting and waited on the Lord and were able to exercise their spiritual senses and use their gifts they grew and began to help others. It is a wonderful thing to see. Also when a scripture is read one person may have an exhortation from that scripture, another a doctrine, or a teacher may expound it, another may apply it to a life situation etc. It is wonderful the entire body becomes a message with many branches.

We being many are one bread and one body and we are all partakers of that one bread. Christ as the head works effectually in every part as we wait on Him in His order.

Yes, when the body is free to teach and minister and use all their gifts you will have some who try to teach who don't understand or they may have a partial understanding, but thats where the other brethren will come and expound further and correct etc. We all work together.

Some might say, that they will have a one man pastor who has studied in a bible school and has a in-depth knowledge of the word etc. Well, I have seen that the way we get into the word is so much deeper. All avenues will be covered and many times revelation is given as God helps us to understand. In the early church how do we suppose they ever got by without the man who went to a bible school and learned hebrew and greek? They were simple fishermen and farmers etc. We simply trust that God will give gifts to the body as they need. This total dependance on God for all things and on God to work in us to make us perfect unto all good works, through Jesus Christ is our living faith (Hebrews 13:20,21 KJV).

And still the men who teach should study and continue to learn and teach faithful men who can teach others also.

In a good home meeting with about 30 people there there will often be many men who are gifted to teach and some who have been believers a long time.

If heresy happens, prayerfully we hope the overseers will be able to exhort and convince the gainsayer as they hold fast the faithful word and with sound doctrine. But this could happen in any assembly where there is one man over all in an exalted role as well. But he may not know how to answer some false teachers. But if he was in a body where all can wait on the Lord may times the answer will come among the gatherings with someone. In the multitude of counsellors there is safety

 

[LoveofTruth]

The Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and the Roman Catholic Churches all agree that the Eucharist is the true Body and Blood of Jesus Christ

and I believe they are all in error sadly.

Paul said,

2 Corinthians 5:16
"Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more."

Paul said

"this bread which we break..."

he did not say

"this literal flesh which we break, or literal blood we drink"

and so no one man priest is needed over the body, only a plurality of elders and all the body can minister to each other. There is no need for some special man to do rituals and "sacrements" so called.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Maybe an expansion of 1 Cor 15 by you will tell us the answer.

1 Corinthians 15:3-8
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importancea : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Cephas,b and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.


Disclosure: I have been following Frank, George and Neil closely.

To expound on the gospel here would be a long discussion not for this post and a bit off topic. But I can expound it if you want to start another post, or we can talk about this in a message.

There are many things that can be said about the saving gospel. it could be a 45 hour talk.

But consider the power of that gospel as applied to believers and how we can obey the gospel

"
Galatians 2:20
"I am crucified with Christ:..."

Colossians 2:12
"Buried with him..."

Colossians 2:12
"...also ye are risen with him"



2 Corinthians 4:10
"Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body."

"according to the scriptures ( Isaiah 53:5, Lev. 14:4-7, Isaiah 53:12, Ex. 12,27, Psalms 22:15, Numbers 21:8, Daniel 9:26, Acts 2:26-28, Psalm 16:8-11, Jonah 2:10, Hosea 6:2, 1 Peter 3:20,21, Numbers 17:8, etc etc etc

 

[Wordkeeper]

"

To expound on the gospel here would be a long discussion not for this post and a bit off topic. But I can expound it if you want to start another post, or we can talk about this in a message.

There are many things that can be said about the saving gospel. it could be a 45 hour talk.

But consider the power of that gospel as applied to believers and how we can obey the gospel

"
Galatians 2:20
"I am crucified with Christ:..."

Colossians 2:12
"Buried with him..."

Colossians 2:12
"...also ye are risen with him"



2 Corinthians 4:10
"Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body."

"according to the scriptures ( Isaiah 53:5, Lev. 14:4-7, Isaiah 53:12, Ex. 12,27, Psalms 22:15, Numbers 21:8, Daniel 9:26, Acts 2:26-28, Psalm 16:8-11, Jonah 2:10, Hosea 6:2, 1 Peter 3:20,21, Numbers 17:8, etc etc etc

Suppose a new member says the Gospel
is :

"In order to be saved, a person must wind up receiving the gift of Eternal Life."

What would your elder do? I'm interested in procedure, not the subject matter.

 

[LoveofTruth]

"

Suppose a new member says the Gospel
is :

"In order to be saved, a person must wind up receiving the gift of Eternal Life."

What would your elder do? I'm interested in procedure, not the subject matter.

the elders would say, yes we must have eternal life, and scripture shows us how that comes about and in whom that life is given. Then we would show the gospel and expound the way to be born again. This may get into a very deep study of the OT salvation and the destiny of the unevangelized and How God reaches them.

But we will tell them that when you wind up receiving eternal life that is the result of believing in God's righteousness and the gospel revealed as 1 Cor 15:1-4 says. many things could be spoken from such a comment.

We might ask them, "how do you end up receiving eternal life?"

 

[Wordkeeper]

the elders would say, yes we must have eternal life, and scripture shows us how that comes about and in whom that life is given. Then we would show the gospel and expound the way to be born again. This may get into a very deep study of the OT salvation and the destiny of the unevangelized and How God reaches them.

But we will tell them that when you wind up receiving eternal life that is the result of believing in God's righteousness and the gospel revealed as 1 Cor 15:1-4 says. many things could be spoken from such a comment.

We might ask them, "how do you end up receiving eternal life?"

Again, sticking to procedures, I ask in my Bible study, of a new member, "How did you get your information?"

Since I agree that seminary knowledge perpetuates the errors of the particular denomination, I would reject the fruits of that methodology.

Since it is good who raises up future elders through gifting, I would only accept the contribution of it is claimed to be fruit from asking for the greater gifts.

Some house churches have had a record of confused teaching because elders have not been raised up. Maybe they have not received because they did not ask?

 

[LoveofTruth]

Again, sticking to procedures, I ask in my Bible study, of a new member, "How did you get your information?"

Since I agree that seminary knowledge perpetuates the errors of the particular denomination, I would reject the fruits of that methodology.

Since it is good who raises up future elders through gifting, I would only accept the contribution of it is claimed to be fruit from asking for the greater gifts.

Some house churches have had a record of confused teaching because elders have not been raised up. Maybe they have not received because they did not ask?

elders are gifted and made overseers by God and they are known as they labour among us,
they also meet the qualifications given in Timothy and Titus.