If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

[Doug Melven]

I don't like starting threads because I then feel obligated to respond to every poster. I grow weary and eventually get bored and lose interest, but that's just me. You and I have had discussions in the past where we disagree but you remain respectful so I appreciate that.

Just a quick reflection on your premise. In essence, that would make the Good News, the bad news not only for the majority of humankind in the LOF but also for Jesus as well who suffers along with them. So God who despite being omniscient and omnipotent suffers along with lost souls forever. In my opinion, that doesn't sound like God would come up with a plan such as that. It brings to my mind, the picture of defeat and failure rather than victory and success. God is not defeated when establishing his divine purpose.

Philosophically the options are:
God is able to save all + God does not desire to save all = all are not saved. [Calvinism]
God is not able to save all + God desires to save all = all are not saved. [Arminianism]
God is able to save all + God desires to save all = all are saved [Universalism]

In terms of the Lamb being present in the LOF. It makes more sense to me that Jesus is there as a reminder to those who have sinned against him but not for eternal punishment as an end in itself but for chastisement and ultimately reconciliation which is what Universalism is based on. Scripturally, Jesus' presence in the LOF reminds me of the time when the Israelites because of their disobedience were bitten by "fiery serpents" in Numbers 21. As an antidote, Moses was commanded to fashion a bronze snake and put it on a pole so that "anyone who is bitten can look at it and live." Perhaps this is a type and shadow prefiguring what happens in the LOF to those suffering fiery pain but look upon Jesus? Jesus referenced this very incident when Nicodemus asked him how can a man be born again. Those who look upon Jesus who is with them in the LOF - will live.
Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego were thrown in the fiery furnace but a fourth person was seen present with them in the fiery furnace described as "a son of the gods" (Daniel 3:25). They lived through this fiery ordeal in the presence of the Lamb.

I like your 2nd option, but I am not an Arminian. I disagree with to much of there theology.
The first 2 options would be better labeled as monergistic (salvation is all of God) and synergistic (man's cooperation is needed to be saved).
I am synergistic.
Jesus will not be in the LOF. Revelation 21:8 says who will, Jesus is not listed.
Because one like unto the son of God was in the fire with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego is referring to those who walk through fire. Not stay motionless in fire.
Isaiah 43:2 When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.

 

[redleghunter]

You mean during the gift of life that God has given people? The few people who don't enjoy it enough to carry on often kill themselves. Even then this world with its sufferings serve various purposes, such as teaching mankind by an experiential knowledge of good & evil, for each individual's ultimate good. Men learn lessons such as forgiveness. It is an experience God has given to humble man. That's good for his character. Unlike endless pointless torments.

This relates to the topic of the "problem of evil"? What is your answer? Is free will important in your theology? Can Love Omnipotent work every momentary light suffering of this world, (which are in total nothing relative to endless sadistic torments), for good? Yes, He can & He will. OTOH, as i said:

Endless pointless non corrective torments are orchestrated or caused by a sadistic cruel monster like the Islamic god "Allah". Corrective temporary remedial torments for the good & salvation of the offender are allowed by a God Who is Love Omnipotent as the Scriptures teach.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Notice your response did not use Holy Scriptures.

Do you have a response to the words of Jesus and Paul I quoted?

 

[Oldmantook]

I like your 2nd option, but I am not an Arminian. I disagree with to much of there theology.
The first 2 options would be better labeled as monergistic (salvation is all of God) and synergistic (man's cooperation is needed to be saved).
I am synergistic.
Jesus will not be in the LOF. Revelation 21:8 says who will, Jesus is not listed.
Because one like unto the son of God was in the fire with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego is referring to those who walk through fire. Not stay motionless in fire.
Isaiah 43:2 When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.

You are mistaken; Jesus who is the Lamb of God is indeed in the lake of fire.
"If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!" (Ps 139:8).
"he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb." (Rev 14:10).
The three Hebrews including the Son of God walked around in the furnace according to Dan 3:25. So your point is?
Synegergism is not a problem of Universalism.
"so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth," (Phil 2:10).

 

[Marvin Knox]

Jesus will not be in the LOF. Revelation 21:8 says who will, Jesus is not listed.

We have, in this train of thought, been referring to the following passage where it clearly says that the lamb will be present in the lake of fire.

“If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives its mark on his forehead or hand, he too will drink of the wine of God's anger, poured undiluted into he cup of His wrath and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever." Revelation 14:10

Also - I really don't see how the folks pushing the idea of eventual universal salvation can miss the fact that "the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever".

But then, IMO, their position is ultimately based on emotion and not on the scriptures.

Synegergism is not a problem of Universalism.

For what it's worth - synergism shouldn't be a problem for Calvinists either.
All Calvinists believe that men must respond in faith in order to be saved.

What is "monergistic" is the initial work of God in the lives of the elect in order to bring about that synergistic work of justification by faith.

 

[Doug Melven]

You are mistaken; Jesus who is the Lamb of God is indeed in the lake of fire.
"If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!" (Ps 139:8).
"he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb." (Rev 14:10).
The three Hebrews including the Son of God walked around in the furnace according to Dan 3:25. So your point is?
Synegergism is not a problem of Universalism.
"so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth," (Phil 2:10).

Psalm 139:8 is referring to the omnipresence of God.
Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
The angels and Jesus will not be in the fire.
Just as the rich man was tormented in the fire in Abraham's presence, but Abraham was not in the fire.

Just as we walk through fire and floods in this life, so Jesus Christ is with us. Hebrews 13:5
He is not with unbelievers. Only those who trust Him.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I don't like starting threads because I then feel obligated to respond to every poster. I grow weary and eventually get bored and lose interest, but that's just me.

Me also.

Just a quick reflection on your premise. In essence, that would make the Good News, the bad news not only for the majority of humankind in the LOF but also for Jesus as well who suffers along with them. So God who despite being omniscient and omnipotent suffers along with lost souls forever. In my opinion, that doesn't sound like God would come up with a plan such as that. It brings to my mind, the picture of defeat and failure rather than victory and success. God is not defeated when establishing his divine purpose.

Jesus suffers for the sins of the world and is also eternally exalted in victory through His overcoming life. He is pictured in the throne of God in Heaven as both the Lion and the Lamb.

I believe that His eternal suffering as the Lamb will be the primary reason we cast our crowns at the feet of Him who is seated in glory at the right hand of God and has seated us there with Him.

I believe that being able to vividly see in Hell what Jesus did for them will add to their torment because they could have receive Him as the Lamb of God and did not.

Obviously anyone saying that this understanding of eternity is exactly right is full of bull. We see through the glass darkly and will until that day when we see God face to face.

Philosophically the options are:
God is able to save all + God does not desire to save all = all are not saved. [Calvinism]
God is not able to save all + God desires to save all = all are not saved. [Arminianism]
God is able to save all + God desires to save all = all are saved [Universalism]

I believe these are incorrect representations of the first two positions.

God is able to save all + God's hearts desire is to save all = God's decree is that all will not be saved so that His righteousness and just wrath might be eternally displayed in the ages to come just as will be His mercy and grace. (Calvinism)

God is able to save all + God desires to save all = all are not saved and God has no ultimate plan as to why He allows people to be lost even though He could have presented it. (Arminianism)

In terms of the Lamb being present in the LOF. It makes more sense to me that Jesus is there as a reminder to those who have sinned against him

He is that.

He is a reminder to all of those who sinned against Him (every one of us) concerning the utter folly of those who rejected God's grace and the extent of the grace of God which saved the elect.

 

[AlexDTX]

I wonder why the adherents of universal salvation strive to convince others, who are already saved, to believe their teaching. But I have to admit this is no different than many other Bible gun-slingers who shoot out their proof texts and arguments in so many other doctrines. Then this thought came to me: those who feel the need to convince others that their belief is right have made that belief their cause and purpose in life. With many people who are so adamant about their positions, their is usually no sense of love or dialogue from them, only an intent on proving their point. So those of us who get caught up in their conversations never feel like they are trying to understand our point of view, only a continued argument regarding their point of view. So it is never actually a conversation. Only a butting of heads.

 

[Oldmantook]

Psalm 139:8 is referring to the omnipresence of God.
Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
The angels and Jesus will not be in the fire.
Just as the rich man was tormented in the fire in Abraham's presence, but Abraham was not in the fire.

Just as we walk through fire and floods in this life, so Jesus Christ is with us. Hebrews 13:5
He is not with unbelievers. Only those who trust Him.

I really don't see how you can interpret Rev 14:10 otherwise. V.9 plainly states that the he who worships the beast/take his mark end ups in the lake of fire. V.10 then declares ..."and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb."
Sorry but your interpretation strains the simple and plain meaning of the text.

 

[Oldmantook]

I wonder why the adherents of universal salvation strive to convince others, who are already saved, to believe their teaching. But I have to admit this is no different than many other Bible gun-slingers who shoot out their proof texts and arguments in so many other doctrines. Then this thought came to me: those who feel the need to convince others that their belief is right have made that belief their cause and purpose in life. With many people who are so adamant about their positions, their is usually no sense of love or dialogue from them, only an intent on proving their point. So those of us who get caught up in their conversations never feel like they are trying to understand our point of view, only a continued argument regarding their point of view. So it is never actually a conversation. Only a butting of heads.

You forget that it works both ways. Do you not attemot to convince others of your stance based on how you interpret Scripture. Every single person is fallible and our positions may be subject to change over time. That is why we have these discussions as presumably iron sharpens iron. Nonetheless, in the end we can always agree to disagree.

 

[Doug Melven]

I really don't see how you can interpret Rev 14:10 otherwise. V.9 plainly states that the he who worships the beast/take his mark end ups in the lake of fire. V.10 then declares ..."and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb."
Sorry but your interpretation strains the simple and plain meaning of the text.

To be in the presence of someone does not mean they have to be in the same state.
If one person is one room and somebody else in another room and they are separated by a see through wall, they are still in each others presence.
Also, why would the holy angels be tormented in the flame as well?
Again, the rich man was tormented in the presence of Abraham and Lazarus who were not being tormented.
Let Scripture interpret Scripture, not human reasoning.

 

[Doug Melven]

I wonder why the adherents of universal salvation strive to convince others, who are already saved, to believe their teaching. But I have to admit this is no different than many other Bible gun-slingers who shoot out their proof texts and arguments in so many other doctrines. Then this thought came to me: those who feel the need to convince others that their belief is right have made that belief their cause and purpose in life. With many people who are so adamant about their positions, their is usually no sense of love or dialogue from them, only an intent on proving their point. So those of us who get caught up in their conversations never feel like they are trying to understand our point of view, only a continued argument regarding their point of view. So it is never actually a conversation. Only a butting of heads.

I know there is little hope of persuading these people to see the truth, but I reply (or butt heads if you will) to make sure other people see the truth.

 

[Oldmantook]

To be in the presence of someone does not mean they have to be in the same state.
If one person is one room and somebody else in another room and they are separated by a see through wall, they are still in each others presence.
Also, why would the holy angels be tormented in the flame as well?
Again, the rich man was tormented in the presence of Abraham and Lazarus who were not being tormented.
Let Scripture interpret Scripture, not human reasoning.

No where in this scripture does it state that Jesus is present in the LOF but "separated" as if in another room. You are adding words to the text via your own personal interpretation which amounts to poor hemeneutics. In addition no where in the text does it states that the angels are being tormented. Only the souls of those in the LOF who worshipped the beast/took the mark are tormented. Are you implying God's holy angels take the mark? Please read the text carefully before drawing your conclusions.
As for the rich man, I hope you're aware that Sheol consisted of two divides. To compare that abode with the LOF which is never described as having two compartments is irrelevant.

 

[ClementofA]

I wonder why the adherents of universal salvation strive to convince others, who are already saved, to believe their teaching. But I have to admit this is no different than many other Bible gun-slingers who shoot out their proof texts and arguments in so many other doctrines. Then this thought came to me: those who feel the need to convince others that their belief is right have made that belief their cause and purpose in life. With many people who are so adamant about their positions, their is usually no sense of love or dialogue from them, only an intent on proving their point. So those of us who get caught up in their conversations never feel like they are trying to understand our point of view, only a continued argument regarding their point of view. So it is never actually a conversation. Only a butting of heads.

This was already addressed:

Clement,
I started a thread last summer asking US adherents why they believe what they believe, and kept an open mind and heart to the answers. I've listened to the arguments and the witness of my spirit along with my own relationship with the Lord and my knowledge of Scripture compels me to utterly reject the doctrine as a spin off of Calvinism.

It's historically inaccurate to say universalism is a spin off of Calvinism. Besides Scripture it dates back to the early church fathers whom few would classify as Calvinists. In fact it was an ECF whom Calvinists point to as one of their own, Augustine, who was largely responsible for the opposition to universalism several centuries after Christ.

Today most universalists are probably found in the two largest denominations, RC & EO, which are far from being Calvinistic.

So, it seems to me, you are quite misinformed on this point, as well as other points re universalism i've raised in previous posts. Which is not surprising from one who relied for his info on a single brief thread on just one anonymous posting forum. Needless to say this is not a proper or thorough method for researching any topic. In high school one would get an F for such an effort.

And I reject Calvinism with the same vehemence, regarding both US doctrine and Calvinism as doctrines of demons. Yes, I know US adherents just as vehemently deny that they are not Calvinists. But the logical assumptions are based upon Calvinist premise.

Again, i'd strongly suggest you are once again badly misinformed. As per my comments above. Early Church Fathers aside, & the RC & EO universalists aside, even the vast majority of books i've seen by universalist authors (either hopeful or assured of UR) & forum posters are anti-Calvinistic.

You are welcome to your opinion. But I will not have your opinion crammed down my throat.

Yet you keep coming back for more. There's an easy way to avoid listening to others opinions, whether with an open mind, & thorough research, or not. Just don't open the threads. No one is forcing you to "cram" those posted words "down your throat" except you & only you yourself when you click on the thread about universalism and you - no one else - makes the choice to read. You can't pass the buck for responsibility for that onto others, as Calvinists often do.

This is why I say it is pointless. I already know the Lord. Just as I trust God is leading you through your understanding of Him, He is leading me through my understanding of Him.

Paul tells us not to cause a brother weak in faith to stumble. If I am a brother weak in faith I see those who argue for Universal Salvation as creating stumbling blocks.

Evidently you don't believe in "eternal security" or that God will keep those that are His.

You also ignore the hundreds of millions who have already been "stumbled" away from Christ by the false teaching of endless torments.

Does your comment then mean those who are damned will have a legitimate excuse on the day of judgement & your "god" will not be able to annihilate or torture them for eternity?

Also Jesus spoke of the wheat & tares growing together. So there will be true believers amongst the mere professing Christians. Therefore you can't judge that all those posting here & saying the name of Jesus are saved. Compare Mt.7:21-23 re those saying Lord, Lord.

In other words, I see you creating division and sin in the body.

There are already 100's of divisions called denominations. Is that what you consider unity, rather than division? Jesus said He came to bring a sword & division. At what cost to the truth would you have superficial unity? The true church will always have unity of the Spirit.

I don't argue with Calvinists and I don't want to argue with your bunch, either.

Yet here you are.

Nothing US people say will convince, and on the contrary, the more they say the more I resent their insistence.

I'd suggest prayer.

I see it as a damnable doctrine, and a twisted and contorted doctrine that wrestles with Scripture their own destruction.

No surprises there. God bless.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Doug Melven]

No where in this scripture does it state that Jesus is present in the LOF but "separated" as if in another room. You are adding words to the text via your own personal interpretation which amounts to poor hemeneutics. In addition no where in the text does it states that the angels are being tormented. Only the souls of those in the LOF who worshipped the beast/took the mark are tormented. Are you implying God's holy angels take the mark? Please read the text carefully before drawing your conclusions.
As for the rich man, I hope you're aware that Sheol consisted of two divides. To compare that abode with the LOF which is never described as having two compartments is irrelevant.

Nowhere in the Scripture does it state Jesus is in the Lake of Fire.
He does not have to be in the fire for them to be tormented in His presence.
And your interpretation of Revelation 14:10 puts the holy angels in the Lake of fire too. Why would they be there?
Your interpretation is wrong.

 

[Doug Melven]

You also ignore the hundreds of millions who have already been "stumbled" away from Christ by the false teaching of endless torments.

How did you come up with this figure?
Did you talk to them?
Is there a database of people who have stumbled because of the teaching of hell?

 

[AlexDTX]

You forget that it works both ways. Do you not attemot to convince others of your stance based on how you interpret Scripture. Every single person is fallible and our positions may be subject to change over time. That is why we have these discussions as presumably iron sharpens iron. Nonetheless, in the end we can always agree to disagree.

I did not forget. I state my position, but I will not engage in endless argument to either defend my position or to convince anyone else to accept my position. I did years ago argue the same way when I was a young believer, but at this stage in my life I know it is fruitless. My only concern is that I say what the Holy Spirit wants said so He can make it alive in another heart. If I don't say what the Lord wants, then I don't want to endlessly repeat that! I came to this realization because in my young walk with the Lord I, too, made my position my cause and purpose. And, yes, iron does sharpen iron, and yes, we can agree to disagree.

 

[AlexDTX]

I know there is little hope of persuading these people to see the truth, but I reply (or butt heads if you will) to make sure other people see the truth.

I, too, believe we should all speak the truth in love. But I will not try to convince someone to accept my position because if I could, someone else will later convince them contrariwise. However, If I say what the Lord wants said, then He will make it alive to them and no one will take that away from them.

 

[ClementofA]

Revelation 14:10

Also - I really don't see how the folks pushing the idea of eventual universal salvation can miss the fact that "the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever".

Marvin,

Of course you don't "see". Because you've never seriously considered the UR viewpoint & are ignorant of it (like the majority of posters here). We, OTOH, have been in your shoes before & understood your view & rejected it for a more biblically sound interpretation.

Rev.14:9-11 & 20:10 & forever & ever a deceptive translation:

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

But then, IMO, their position is ultimately based on emotion and not on the scriptures.

In some cases that is so. Just like it is for those who support endless annihilation or torments. Your belief may be due to brainwashing, never having considered or understood (see above) the universalist biblical position, etc.

"But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts." (EO scholar David Bentley Hart) Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart

God bless.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Of course you don't "see". Because you've never seriously considered the UR viewpoint & are ignorant of it (like the majority of posters here).

I have seriously considered the UR viewpoint and I am not ignorant of it's premise.

I wish and pray that it is true.

But I just see it as a contrived and forced doctrine based primarily on the hope that eternal punishment for sins is not true and that it would make God a monster if it were true.

I don't subscribe to either concept.

 

[ClementofA]

I have seriously considered the UR viewpoint and I am not ignorant of it's premise.

I wish and pray that it is true.

But I just see it as a contrived and forced doctrine based primarily on the hope that eternal punishment for sins is not true and that it would make God a monster if it were true.

I don't subscribe to either concept.

Yet your previous comment indicated you haven't seriously considered UR.