Why did Jesus die?

[Soyeong]

If I am owed money, as a person, I do have the ability to cancel that debt. I am not paying it off. I am simply choosing to tell the person who owes me that s/he no longer owes me any money. If I am not the one owed, I can't cancel the debt. I have to pay it off.

So, in the parable Jesus told, He equated God to the king who forgave/cancelled the debt (suggesting the debt was owed to God).

If someone owed me $1,000, there would be no difference between me cancelling their debt and me giving them $1,000 so that they can pay their debt to me, or giving them $1,000 so that they can pay their debt to someone else. In all of these situations I would be giving them $1,000 in order to pay their debt in their place.

 

[Doug Melven]

If I am owed money, as a person, I do have the ability to cancel that debt. I am not paying it off. I am simply choosing to tell the person who owes me that s/he no longer owes me any money. If I am not the one owed, I can't cancel the debt. I have to pay it off.

So, in the parable Jesus told, He equated God to the king who forgave/cancelled the debt (suggesting the debt was owed to God).

Actually, if you are the holder of the other person's iou and you cancel/forgive the debt, you are paying it off to yourself.
This is why Jesus had to die on the cross.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

This is exactly my point.
And if this person who is in the desert is telling us about the sun, would he not think the sun hated him?
God loves His people.
Sin hurts us, God's creation. God hates sin.

I can't go with you there, Doug. I agree God loves His people. Not all are His people. I agree that God hates sin.

I look at Paul. Without God's sovereign move, Paul would be thinking he was serving God loving the sun, in your analogy and not seeing the need for sunblock). God intervenes, so Paul suddenly knows Jesus was who He said He was. And, "sunblock" to him would look like more torture than he ever had to endure prior to coming to Christ. And that is exactly what Jesus told Ananias would happen. Food for thought.

 

[Doug Melven]

I can't go with you there, Doug. I agree God loves His people. Not all are His people. I agree that God hates sin.

I look at Paul. Without God's sovereign move, Paul would be thinking he was serving God loving the sun, in your analogy and not seeing the need for sunblock). God intervenes, so Paul suddenly knows Jesus was who He said He was. And, "sunblock" to him would look like more torture than he ever had to endure prior to coming to Christ. And that is exactly what Jesus told Ananias would happen. Food for thought.

But Paul was "kicking against the pricks" before he encountered Jesus.
I think he was resisting what the Holy Spirit was doing.
Then we have 1 Timothy 1:13
Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

And it was an analogy, every analogy will have holes in it.
There will always be people on the wrong side who will think they are doing service for God. How to fit them into an analogy that includes all lost people, I don't have a clue.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

If someone owed me $1,000, there would be no difference between me cancelling their debt and me giving them $1,000 so that they can pay their debt to me, or giving them $1,000 so that they can pay their debt to someone else. In all of these situations I would be giving them $1,000 in order to pay their debt in their place.

I understand why you say that. And, honestly, it isn't worth arguing. That wasn't the point of the original post. I was more intrigued that some think the debt concept is actually foreign to the Gospel, which is how I read the original post.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

But Paul was "kicking against the pricks" before he encountered Jesus.
I think he was resisting what the Holy Spirit was doing.
Then we have 1 Timothy 1:13
Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

And it was an analogy, every analogy will have holes in it.
There will always be people on the wrong side who will think they are doing service for God. How to fit them into an analogy that includes all lost people, I don't have a clue.

Doug, we can certainly presume a lot of things. But, I don't think Paul saw it that way at all. I have no reason to believe that he wasn't wholly believing he was actually serving God by killing Christians. He stood by while Stephen got stoned to death and then started imprisoning Christians himself. He secured a letter from the chief priest in one city to go after Christians in another city. He was zealous for God. When he talks to Timothy, he is looking at it from after his conversion. He certainly didn't think he was a blasphemer, persecutor, or injurious person before his conversion and he certainly didn't believe he was an unbeliever when he was killing Christians thinking they were the ones blaspheming God, when it was him. He's speaking from a heart that was convicted and changed. He realizes after the fact what he did.

I don't know about you; but, because of how God came into my life, I could say those things about myself from the perspective of being born again by God, now; but, I never would have considered myself that way before I was born again. I would have told you that "I am a Christian. I go to church on Sundays and try to be a good person during the week." I know now that isn't a real Christian; but, I never would have let anyone tell me otherwise then.

My concern wasn't the imperfect analogy. I'm not convinced that God can love someone He is wrathful toward. Scripture seems clear that while God is love, God's wrath and jealousy (which are part of that total character of God that it seemed you and I were in agreement about), leads God to do things that God wouldn't do to someone He loved. Whether it be turning them over to a debased mind or sending a strong delusion that they would believe a lie or hardening hearts or preparing vessels of wrath for destruction or hand-picking one of the twelve to serve as the son of perdition to fulfill the Scriptures (all of which are done before that person dies) OR punishing men after it is too late for them to learn and change their mind--these are evidences that God's wrath is part of His nature as well. It certainly isn't His personality preference. But, it is part of His personality none-the-less. He doesn't make any apologies for that. I'm just not sure why some think that they have to.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Why are people so afraid to accept the whole.... only true and living sovereign God?

There are possibly many reasons listed throughout Scripture, YHWH'S WORD.
It is not a surprise, no, but rather expected.

 

[~Anastasia~]

It's difficult to create perfect analogies.

God created everything good. Everything to BE good, to be healthy, complete, aligned with His will. There was to be no sickness, no sin, no corruption, no death.

If it were possible that we had such a thing as a machine, or a thing where ONLY the healthy could bear to be in its presence. Like a smelter's fire, it would burn up any dross and only the pure could remain in its presence, becoming further purified. If such a thing existed for flesh ...

God would be like that thing. And we, fallen in the world, would be like flesh infected by sin, growing cancerous because of it.

Jesus is the medicine. He heals us - really and truly HEALS us - of the cancer, the effects, the infection of sin. Not only is sin removed but the effects of sin are removed. We are made truly whole, healthy, healed. Jesus doesn't just shield our cancer from the effects of the machine, He truly removes, heals it.

Then when we pass under the machine, we are accepted, any emanations from it are as light to us.

If someone refuses to be healed, refuses Christ, they pass under the machine, and while the machine doesn't hate them, their very nature as cancerous, infected beings means they experience those same emanations from the machine as torture.

God simply IS. And He is love. And it's not that He can't abide sin in His presence ... He's perfectly capable of standing up to it. Satan entered into God's presence to discuss Job, and Christ Who IS God purposely sought out sinners. God isn't somehow burned by the touch of a sinner. It is sin that can't exist in God's presence.

I realize the analogy is clumsy. I know of nothing that fits perfectly in the natural world, because we don't have anything that rejects all sickness. But there is a reason I wanted to use sickness/healing. It's because the Scriptures do.

The word for "save" in the Scriptures is the very same word that is in other places translated "heal". (Sozo/σῴζω)
God equates saving and healing. This is why we should too.

Yes, Christ is our sacrifice. Yes, He is our atonement. But if we push the legal aspect so far that we blot out the true saving/healing aspect, we water down our theology, and at the same time, we risk missing out on that medicine and healing, because we don't even expect it to happen.

God be with you all.

 

[Doug Melven]

Doug, we can certainly presume a lot of things. But, I don't think Paul saw it that way at all.

I make no assumptions. Jesus said it was hard for Saul to kick against the pricks. Acts 9:5
And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

Obviously Paul was having a problem with his conscience. And he was resisting.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

God equates saving and healing. This is why we should too.

Amen.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

I make no assumptions. Jesus said it was hard for Saul to kick against the pricks. Acts 9:5
And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

Obviously Paul was having a problem with his conscience. And he was resisting.

I understand what you are saying. But, Saul/Paul didn't think of it that way. If he did, he wouldn't have been imprisoning Christians. Don't you think everyone who resists Jesus and especially those who think they are serving God while resisting Jesus, has the same problem in their conscience? Saul/Paul had companions on the road helping him imprison Christians. Don't you think they had the same problem with their conscience--and most of the same pricks as their leader Saul? But, they didn't see Jesus and they heard a voice, but we have no record of them understanding what the voice said, nor do we have any suggestion that any of them were there when Saul/Paul was prayed for by Ananias.

"And this is the condemnation: that Light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." (John 3:19)

Saul/Paul not only didn't respond to his conscience, he would have been doing the opposite of what his conscience was telling him to do. Jesus would know that He was prodding Saul/Paul; but Saul/Paul didn't think of it that way, UNTIL Jesus appeared to him on the road to damascus, blinded him, and directly told him who He was and what Saul was doing.

And, I am sure that EVERY unbeliever will be shown when they resisted the prodding of God to come to the Truth, as part of their judgment. I am not sure that every unbeliever will have a damascus road experience--the kind of experience that makes you do an about face.

 

[Doug Melven]

But, Saul/Paul didn't think of it that way. If he did, he wouldn't have been imprisoning Christians.

Then please explain what you think Jesus meant when He told Paul it was for Paul to kick against the pricks.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

And, I am sure that EVERY unbeliever will be shown when they resisted the prodding of God to come to the Truth, as part of their judgment.

Yes they will all acknowledge the truth, as they realize that YHWH'S judgment is righteously being carried out, but it will be too late for them to 'come to the truth'. (if you're referring to the final judgment)
If they see YHWH'S Judgment (Truth, Justice, Mercy, Atonement, Plan and Purpose of Salvation) while they are still alive on earth, then they may by His Grace turn to Him to be saved, if He Permits.

 

[~Anastasia~]

If they see YHWH'S Judgment (Truth, Justice, Mercy, Atonement, Plan and Purpose of Salvation) while they are still alive on earth, then they may by His Grace turn to Him to be saved, if He Permits.

Are you suggesting that a person might turn to Christ with proper understanding and seeking to be saved - and He might not permit it and reject them?

Maybe that's not what you mean?

But if it is, for what reason do you suppose He would prevent them?

Just curious of your thinking.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Are you suggesting that a person might turn to Christ with proper understanding and seeking to be saved - and He might not permit it and reject them?

Maybe that's not what you mean?

But if it is, for what reason do you suppose He would prevent them?

Just curious of your thinking.

This must necessarily go to another thread (I think), another time, YHWH Willing. (and to a section where it is permitted to be revealed/ posted, btw (see below) )
According to SCRIPTURE:
For instance, No where , not one place, in SCRIPTURE , is anyone "saved" by seeking to be "saved", are they ? Think how many Buddhists, Hindus, JWs, and Mormons all have "sought to be saved" and thought they were/ think they are/ and might NEVER be. Many other groups likewise.

Oh, I just realized you also did say "turn to Christ with proper understanding".... like perhaps the scribes and pharisees who believed Him ('proper understanding') but REFUSED to follow Him, even to be saved, preferring instead the love of their peers (other men instead of YHWH'S approval) .

See ? Every Word of YHWH is TRUTH, unchanged and unchanging, and in perfect harmony completely with His Plan and Purpose in Christ Jesus..... not one of His Words is false.

footnote: there appear many who say they turned to Christ, and claim to understand, and claim to serve Him, and still are not saved - multitudes in fact, according to Scripture. Thus the many warnings in HIS WORD ....
for believers, as well as for unbelievers.

 

[~Anastasia~]

This must necessarily go to another thread (I think), another time, YHWH Willing. (and to a section where it is permitted to be revealed/ posted, btw (see below) )
According to SCRIPTURE:
For instance, No where , not one place, in SCRIPTURE , is anyone "saved" by seeking to be "saved", are they ? Think how many Buddhists, Hindus, JWs, and Mormons all have "sought to be saved" and thought they were/ think they are/ and might NEVER be. Many other groups likewise.

Oh, I just realized you also did say "turn to Christ with proper understanding".... like perhaps the scribes and pharisees who believed Him ('proper understanding') but REFUSED to follow Him, even to be saved, preferring instead the love of their peers (other men instead of YHWH'S approval) .

See ? Every Word of YHWH is TRUTH, unchanged and unchanging, and in perfect harmony completely with His Plan and Purpose in Christ Jesus..... not one of His Words is false.

footnote: there appear many who say they turned to Christ, and claim to understand, and claim to serve Him, and still are not saved - multitudes in fact, according to Scripture. Thus the many warnings in HIS WORD ....
for believers, as well as for unbelievers.

LOL as you wish.

I was simply asking if you were suggesting that God might reject some on arbitrary or some other hidden means.

If you don't wish to say, that's fine.

We know where and how God promises grace.

Thanks anyway. God be with you.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I was simply asking if you were suggesting that God might reject some on arbitrary or some other hidden means.

It OFTEN appears that way to huge populations (multitudes) saved and unsaved, or may appear that way anyway due to man's limits (saved and unsaved).

As far as "hidden" ('means'/ reasons/ motives/ yes, as God knows perfectly everything, and man does not) , certainly. But sooner or later, everything hidden is revealed. God's Perfect Justice and Righteousness has no spot nor wrinkle, and no one can prevail against Him nor prove otherwise.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Then please explain what you think Jesus meant when He told Paul it was for Paul to kick against the pricks.

Doug, I didn't dispute what Jesus said. And, I don't dispute that Paul probably realized, after Jesus had spoken to him, how what Jesus said related to events/circumstances in Paul's life. My contention is that during his "resistance" that you spoke of, he didn't think he was resisting. I really don't think it is even conceivable that "Paul was having a problem with his conscience and resisting," like you said earlier (message #29).

On the contrary, he didn't believe he was doing anything but serving God when he was imprisoning Christians. He was leading the charge in going to Damascus. In contrast, when Judas' conscience caught up with him, he tried to return the money, threw it back into the temple and hung himself. There is no evidence that Paul was feeling anything like that. He was going on the offensive. BUT, then after a supernatural encounter with Jesus, Paul did a serious about-face and marched in the opposite direction without turning back or slowing down.

 

[Doug Melven]

Doug, I didn't dispute what Jesus said. And, I don't dispute that Paul probably realized, after Jesus had spoken to him, how what Jesus said related to events/circumstances in Paul's life. My contention is that during his "resistance" that you spoke of, he didn't think he was resisting. I really don't think it is even conceivable that "Paul was having a problem with his conscience and resisting," like you said earlier (message #29).

On the contrary, he didn't believe he was doing anything but serving God when he was imprisoning Christians. He was leading the charge in going to Damascus. In contrast, when Judas' conscience caught up with him, he tried to return the money, threw it back into the temple and hung himself. There is no evidence that Paul was feeling anything like that. He was going on the offensive. BUT, then after a supernatural encounter with Jesus, Paul did a serious about-face and marched in the opposite direction without turning back or slowing down.

Sometimes when the Holy Spirit is pricking someone's conscience about what they are doing and they are resisting this would be the equivalent to kicking against the pricks.
Paul knew the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit was convicting him about what he was doing in regards to killing Christians, but Paul was resistant to it. He probably said to himself that these pricks are not from God.
But when Jesus told him it was hard for him to kick against the pricks, then Paul knew it was God that was convicting him, then he said, "And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?"

 

[wernalip]

Jesus' death is a mystery but also very beneficial to the mankind. However, it still baffles both the believers and the non-believers how a person who is also God could allow such thing to happen to Himself. Well, God really works in a mysterious way.