The two witnesses

[DavidPT]

All we know is that it's the same day.

Assuming you are correct here, it seems this would contradict the following if the 7th trumpet is meaning the 2nd coming.

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


Revelation 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.


If the 7th trumpet is the 2nd coming and happens the same day as the events above do, that would mean that man, meaning ones who have read Rev 11 and conclude the same as you, would know the day of His return though Jesus indicated no man knoweth that day, that only the Father knows that day.

What we are told in the above passage is this---And the same hour was there a great earthquake. Yet this is not meaning the 7th trumpet at this point. What we are told about the 7th trumpet is that it comes quickly. That could mean a number of things and doesn't necessarily have to mean it occurs the same day as the ascension of the two witnesses. Matthew 24:36 and what Jesus indicated there makes it unlikely that the 7th trumpet occurs the same day when the two witnesses ascend into heaven, that assuming the 7th trumpet involves the 2nd coming, which I myself assume it does.

 

[seventysevens]

There will be no earthly millennial kingdom with mortal humans present.

Matthew 25:31-46

Jesus returns with the angels as the final judgment, eternal kingdom takes place.

Simply you are wrong as wrong can be
More than 2 dozen people have tried to show you how you are wrong
Multiples of scriptures prove you wrong
The error is all yours as you simply cannot accept nor conceive that the eternal coexists with the natural
You exhibit the classic case of preference - you have a preferred view that is in error
You have not understood the Scriptures
Scripture never contradicts itself and scripture teaches BOLDLY that natural man will exist during Jesus reign until the 1000 years are over
You refuse to accept God loves all people including the people that will live during the 1000 years that satan is locked away
You on a daily basis several times a day nearly everyday address people asking why they refuse to accept the scripture that you post

But you do the exact same thing that you accuse others , you refuse to accept and acknowledge ALL scripture that show you to be in error each and every time anyone shows you , the Final Great White Throne judgment happens AFTER 1000 years that satan is locked away ,

Scripture is very bold and plain about it , but yet you refuse to accept it because it shows that your chosen preference does not happen when you think it does , it happens AFTER 1000 years of satan being locked away

Imagine if all the people who have shown you proof of your error would bring it to your attention every time you accuse others of not accepting scripture you feel that they should accept ,, you would have hundreds of posts asking you why you refuse to accept scripture that proves you in error , As the scripture says "remove the beam out of your own eye then you can see clearly to help your brother remove the speck in his eye"
It matters not to me what you believe, but geez everyday you tell people that they are in error but refuse to own your own error , you have a preference and other people believe differently can you find it in your heart to let others believe as they do , you are not saving or sparing anyone from anything with your preference

 

[ewq1938]

If the 7th trumpet is the 2nd coming and happens the same day as the events above do, that would mean that man, meaning ones who have read Rev 11 and conclude the same as you, would know the day of His return though Jesus indicated no man knoweth that day, that only the Father knows that day.

Christ said those things 2000 years ago. No one then knew the day or hour. It's still true today. Certainly when the time comes and certain events unfold people will know the day...like when the two prophets rise back to life...that means it is going to happen that day. Nothing Christ said forbids that knowledge on the certain day.

What we are told in the above passage is this---And the same hour was there a great earthquake. Yet this is not meaning the 7th trumpet at this point. What we are told about the 7th trumpet is that it comes quickly.

The second coming is certainly when the 7th trump sounds, also known as the last trump.

The 7th trump of Rev is the same last trump Paul speaks of because that's when the dead in Christ are raised along with his second coming.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Here we have the second coming associated with a trumpet, and the dead in Christ rising, and the rapture.

Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


And here we have a trumpet called the last trump, and the dead in Christ being raised. This clearly is at the second coming as the other verse makes clear. The dead in Christ rise and Christ returns. So all we have to do is find out which trumpet Christ returns in:

Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Here we have the end of the Tribulation, and the sounding of the last of the 7 trumps. Though not explicitly mentioned here, I think the language does highly imply Christ's second coming is at this time. The second coming is directly tied to the time for wrath:

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


We see this wrath in greater detail here:


Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

So, the "last trump" is the same as the last of the 7 trumpets of Revelation and it is when Christ returns, the dead in Christ rise and the rapture all take place.

 

[BABerean2]

Christ said those things 2000 years ago. No one then knew the day or hour. It's still true today. Certainly when the time comes and certain events unfold people will know the day...like when the two prophets rise back to life...that means it is going to happen that day. Nothing Christ said forbids that knowledge on the certain day.





The second coming is certainly when the 7th trump sounds, also known as the last trump.

The 7th trump of Rev is the same last trump Paul speaks of because that's when the dead in Christ are raised along with his second coming.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Here we have the second coming associated with a trumpet, and the dead in Christ rising, and the rapture.

Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


And here we have a trumpet called the last trump, and the dead in Christ being raised. This clearly is at the second coming as the other verse makes clear. The dead in Christ rise and Christ returns. So all we have to do is find out which trumpet Christ returns in:

Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Here we have the end of the Tribulation, and the sounding of the last of the 7 trumps. Though not explicitly mentioned here, I think the language does highly imply Christ's second coming is at this time. The second coming is directly tied to the time for wrath:

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


We see this wrath in greater detail here:


Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

So, the "last trump" is the same as the last of the 7 trumpets of Revelation and it is when Christ returns, the dead in Christ rise and the rapture all take place.

If Christ said the "candlesticks" are a symbol of the churches in Revelation 1:20 and Paul used the two Olive Trees as a symbol of the Church in Romans chapter 11, is there a relationship between the two witnesses going up into a cloud and the 7th trumpet, just a few verse later?


.

 

[The Times]

If Christ said the "candlesticks" are a symbol of the churches in Revelation 1:20 and Paul used the two Olive Trees as a symbol of the Church in Romans chapter 11, is there a relationship between the two witnesses going up into a cloud and the 7th trumpet, just a few verse later?


.

Absolutely!
The 7th Trumpet is the last Trumpet, it is the Trumpet of God that Jesus sounds and declares time no longer. It is the End, where the Old realm is dissolved and the New Heavenly realm emerges.

The 7th Trumpet I believe is the brilliant coming of the Lord. It is when the worlds collide, where one world is no more and the other continues in the 3rd Heaven, with all those witnesses who have entered the wedding supper of the Lamb of God.

 

[The Times]

Or course. They work together because they have a job to do. Two there means only two as far as the number of the. Nothing else added to that is supported by the Greek word duo.

How do the two directly relate to the Menorah of God, specifically the bowl that they are connected to in Zechariah 4?

They work together but are dependent upon God, not interdependent on each other as if they can't function unless together. Nothing in scripture or definition support such an intimate relationship.

How are they connected to the Chuch, that is the seven lamps?

 

[seventysevens]

I realize that people often try to associate the Last Trump with a number such as the seventh angel blowing a trumpet , as we often associate things in a numerical order , but the Last Trump is actually within the tradition of The Feast of Trumpets where the trumpets sound many blasts in a series of blasts with one long trumpet blast which is called the Tekiah Gedolah, the great trumpet blast. This is what Paul means by the last trump. Paul speaking of the Last Trumpet call was referring to Gods Voice as represented in the OT that created the tradition of the Feast of Trumpets
This represents Gods voice as stated in the OT
Comparing the event of Moses - God came down from heaven in a thick cloud to meet Moses

13 There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount.

16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp tremble

18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.


19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.


20 And the Lord came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the Lord called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.

 

[BABerean2]

I realize that people often try to associate the Last Trump with a number such as the seventh angel blowing a trumpet , as we often associate things in a numerical order , but the Last Trump is actually within the tradition of The Feast of Trumpets where the trumpets sound many blasts in a series of blasts with one long trumpet blast which is called the Tekiah Gedolah, the great trumpet blast. This is what Paul means by the last trump. Paul speaking of the Last Trumpet call was referring to Gods Voice as represented in the OT that created the tradition of the Feast of Trumpets
This represents Gods voice as stated in the OT
Comparing the event of Moses - God came down from heaven in a thick cloud to meet Moses

13 There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount.

16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp tremble

18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.


19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.


20 And the Lord came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the Lord called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.

Nice try.

When the Dispensationalist does not like what is found in the New Testament, they often attempt to make their doctrine work by going back to the Old Testament.

There is no 8th trumpet in the book of Revelation.


Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Eph_5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.


.

 

[Ronald]

Likely but a church can simply mean a group of people not an official church so it could be two certain groups of people who serve as witnesses of the Truth etc.



Paul places the rapture happening after the resurrection so that happens after the trib.





Christ said the trib was shortened so it was 7 years but was changed to 3.5 years. It is written Satan persecutes the church:

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

That's Christians...

Always viewed the ressurrection and rapture as the same: 1 Cor. 15:52; 1 Thes. 4:16, 17 _ at the last trumpet _ we're changed into new bodies at the same time caught up. How else can you interpret that?

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Actually there are two sets to the two witnesses themselves in Rev 11.

Something I wrote years ago:

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, AND the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


"the two olive trees" AND "the two candlesticks"




As you see, there are two of one thing and two of another.

------------------one witness------------second witness------------
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

We have 4 altogether that compose the "two witness".

So what are olive trees?


Zechariah 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?


"What are these two olive trees"


Zechariah 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
Zechariah 4:13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
Zechariah 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.


"These are the two anointed ones"


And olive trees represent anointed people. So, the two olive trees that form ONE WITNESS are two individuals that have been anointed.


Zechariah 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.


Two anointed ones. To be anointed simply means to be blessed with the gifts of the Holy spirit, especially with knowledge which includes knowledge of the future known as prophecy. "ones" means individuals, there are two individuals being spoken of.

ones:

1121

01121 ben {bane}

from 01129; TWOT - 254; n m

AV - son 2978, children 1568, old 135, first 51, man 20, young 18,
young + 01241 17, child 10, stranger 10, people 5, misc 92; 4906

1) son, grandson, child, member of a group
1a) son, male child
1b) grandson
1c) children (pl. - male and female)
1d) youth, young men (pl.)
1e) young (of animals)
1f) sons (as characterisation, ie sons of injustice [for un-
righteous men] or sons of God [for angels]
1g) people (of a nation) (pl.)
1h) of lifeless things, ie sparks, stars, arrows (fig.)
1i) a member of a guild, order, class

----------------one witness--------------second witness------------
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


What are the two candlesticks?

Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.


"and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches"


Candlesticks represent churches which are groups of Christians.







Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, AND the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


so to add what we know:


Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Revelation 11:4 These are the two [anointed ones], AND the two [churches] standing before the God of the earth.

According to scripture, the two witnesses are two churches (candlesticks) AND two persons (olives trees). One witness is the two churches, the other witness is the two persons. Many believe it is Elijah and Enoch but who they are or aren't is another discussion.




When scripture refers to the two "olive trees" and we learn that olive trees represent "anointed ones" then we know these two olive trees are in fact two "anointed ones" which is simply two anointed people or persons...but there's more:


Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


Here only the two olive trees are called the two prophets. Prophets are individuals, in fact they are males. Two male prophets which are anointed by God to give prophetic messages.


Since its also scriptural fact that candlesticks are churches we then have this:


Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees [the two anointed prophets], and the two candlesticks [two churches] standing before the God of the earth.


Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


If you wish to speak of the two prophets which are killed by the antichrist/beast and are raised back to life by God, it is incorrect to refer to them as the "two witnesses" since the scriptures do not. They are referred to as one of the two witnesses, the two olive trees which are two anointed individuals ie: the two prophets.

Nice post good information tying Zechariah into it. I would ad that Moses has a strong case as he appeared on the MT of Transfiguration and he is the Law and Elijah the prophets which are are both witnesses. I agree that the specifics attributed to them can not be spiritualized and the events will happen just as written.

 

[Guide To The Bible]

I was just thinking about the two witnesses and who they may be but i have a few question what are they a witness of? Whats thier testimony? And what does it mean they stand before the Lord of the earth? Etc.

My 2 cents worth:

I believe the two witnesses will be two Christians who will have studied the Bible over many years becoming the most knowledgeable theologians the world has ever seen.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

I was just thinking about the two witnesses and who they may be but i have a few question what are they a witness of? Whats thier testimony? And what does it mean they stand before the Lord of the earth? Etc.

[Rewrite for various reasons.]

Revelation 11 which handles the two witnesses is specifically designed by God to appear to be easy to interpret, but is far from easy to interpret. Even moreso then any other symbolism in Revelation which is High Grade Code.

Why is this? So people will not know what time it is.

How can anyone miss a global testimony where the two prophets have awesome powers of destruction? How can anyone miss the death, resurrection, and ascension which parts of it are seen globally?

Others interpret the two witnesses so that it fits some part of their doctrinal scheme they sell to others. Typically, this feeds off fear of the Apocalypse, this very book, and tells them not truth, but what their itching ears want to believe.

Any literal interpretation will be incorrect.

Any true return must be supplied by the Holy Spirit who persuades you of the truth.

 

[Jenniferdiana]

I dont even know why i ask this question. Kinda silly of me. How can anyone possibly know who they are? The two witnesses probably dont even know who they are until God reveals it. All this guessing just makes it more confusing. Nobody knows the truth but God.

 

[The Times]

I realize that people often try to associate the Last Trump with a number such as the seventh angel blowing a trumpet , as we often associate things in a numerical order , but the Last Trump is actually within the tradition of The Feast of Trumpets where the trumpets sound many blasts in a series of blasts with one long trumpet blast which is called the Tekiah Gedolah, the great trumpet blast. This is what Paul means by the last trump. Paul speaking of the Last Trumpet call was referring to Gods Voice as represented in the OT that created the tradition of the Feast of Trumpets
This represents Gods voice as stated in the OT
Comparing the event of Moses - God came down from heaven in a thick cloud to meet Moses

13 There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount.

16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp tremble

18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.


19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.


20 And the Lord came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the Lord called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.

The Seventh Trumpet is Tekiah (Trumpet) Gedolah (Great). It is the biggest Trumpet blast declaring the end!
It is sounded by the Lord, when he calls his bride up to Him.

 

[The Times]

I dont even know why i ask this question. Kinda silly of me. How can anyone possibly know who they are? The two witnesses probably dont even know who they are until God reveals it. All this guessing just makes it more confusing. Nobody knows the truth but God.

It was discussed in previous posts that the two are pillars that the Church is built upon. It is the Law and the Prophets. The seven lamps which is the Church gets its oil/anointing from them (Zechariah 4).

The olive trees are the source of the oil, pouring oil into God's reservoir, the bowl, then from the bowl the seven candlesticks are supplied oil to output Light through their lamps.

Read the parable of the 5 wise and five foolish virgins

 

[The Times]

Edit, note: I tend not to believe the Moses and Elijah story, but the last theory I present. The Moses and Elijah theory I do find the strongest, otherwise. "Theory" does imply "I do not fully believe yet", or "I am working out the details, maybe I do believe but need more evidence or think about it".

There are a lot of theories, not sure if any are right. I do not know, right now, my own self. I can just present the theories I feel most sound.

"what are they witness of"

Jesus speaks of himself as being the foremost witness. Typically, being a witness implies you have evidence of everything God has said and done. The truth of God. We saw Elijah and Moses witness this, not just in the flesh as it was with John, Peter, and James, but in transfigured form their own selves.

Their witness was not the same as Elijah's and Moses. And the angels have witnessed far more.

"What is their testimony"

Of their witness of God. It could be something else, but a "witness" gives "testimony" of what they are witness of.

"And what does it mean they stand before the Lord of the earth?"

Gabriel used a phrase like this. With the father of John the Baptist. In his case, it meant he was extremely close to God, God is always with him, and God is pleased with him. ie, to stand, instead of to fall before.

Again, Elijah and Moses, however, stood before Jesus at the transfiguration. Which was implied as being partly, "seeing the coming of the Kingdom of God". There are a lot of Scripture which tie back to the transfiguration, however. There we see the new, eternal bodies.


However, some say the two witnesses are books of the Bible. I disagree that is likely. (I also disagree that any theoretical doctrine should be considered sure thing, before proof has come. Which can be God showing people this. )

Some say it is a church, usually their own, frankly.


The two witnesses could be Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, or an Angel of the Holy Spirit who lives in His heart. In this way, one person can be spoken of as "two". It might be noted, this could happen in secret and without identification by the human public.

The Church as the 7 lamps historically fulfills the role of the two witnesses. The two witnesses provide the fuel for the Church. The reason why they are described as oilive trees is because the oil from olives is used as a fuel for latterns.

Hence the oil or anointing of the Church is based upon the two pillars, the Law and the Prophets as the source of that oil. Read Zechariah 4.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

The Church as the 7 lamps historically fulfills the role of the two witnesses. The two witnesses provide the fuel for the Church. The reason why they are described as oilive trees is because the oil from olives is used as a fuel for latterns.

Hence the oil or anointing of the Church is based upon the two pillars, the Law and the Prophets as the source of that oil. Read Zechariah 4.

Right, pretty popular doctrine, not sure who originally came up with it.

It does not seem to fit verses, though anything is possible until the Lord confirms the correct answer.

Well aware of this doctrine, also well aware of the verses in Zechariah.

It does not say these things directly, of course. Not by any means. But, most prophecy is written in a code.

I do not feel it fits the tone of the verses of Chapter 11, and very poorly fits the depictions of that chapter.

Contrast to Daniel's interpretation of the kingdoms, where we now know one is Persia, Greece, etc. It is very clear and fits perfectly.

 

[Douggg]

Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

I read the words "last" trump, not seventh trump. Does your bible say "seventh" trump in 1Corinthians15:52 ?

 

[CGL1023]

The two witnesses in Revelation 11 & Zechariah 4:11-14 will be prophets returned, in physical bodies that will die and be seen.

The golden oil poured out of themselves, are the plagues seen in the book of revelation, as they stand before the beast & world in representation of the Lord Jesus Christ. A remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt X 10

I believe the witnesses will be Enoch & Elijah the only two that never saw physical death?

Its appointed unto man once to die, then the judgment.Hebrews 9:27

My thinking also, esp. the last two sentences.

 

[seventysevens]

Nice try.

When the Dispensationalist does not like what is found in the New Testament, they often attempt to make their doctrine work by going back to the Old Testament.

There is no 8th trumpet in the book of Revelation.
Eph_5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Once Again I am not a Dispensationalist , but as per usual your serious deficit of understanding scripture has been illuminated once again.


The things you say come from a folly imagination.
Of course there is no 8th trumpet , Never said there was , you think that simply because you refuse the truth in favor of your cultic preferences
I gave verbatim pure scripture describing the basis of the Feast of Trumpets based on God Himself voices is described a a Great Trumpet , God came down from Heaven in a cloud ! TRUTH !! This is the basis of Paul's teaching in Thess 4
Your cult does not accept truth , you speak of Israel and don't understand the truth of Israel Feast Days are Gods design for Him to show what He is doing

Then you use scripture bi having any understanding what it is speaking of trying to mold it into you fake doctrine , it has no basis in end times , nothing to do with The 2nd advent of Jesus , nothing to do with this thread but you try to say it does , The scripture is about how Christians should live and love and obey


Eph5
21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body.

31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.
32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.