Asking for interpretations of this cladogram

tas8831

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Yah, I know, your best argument is a spelling error.......

Spelling error?

Sure - how could I possibly expect someone implying amazing expertise on a subject to be familiar with the actual terminology of that subject. How nit-picky...

Seems others would have no problem with what I mean when talking of the genetic strand.

The Genetic Strand

The Genetic Strand

So two links to two places selling a book about a guy researching his family history:


The Genetic Strand is the story of a writer's investigation, using DNA science, into the tale of his family's origins. National Book Award winner Edward Ball has turned his probing gaze on the microcosm of the human genome, and not just any human genome -- that of his slave-holding ancestors. What is the legacy of such a family history, and can DNA say something about it?​


justifies you writing:

"I didnt ask you to show me that a C can be inserted between a T and G where the C already existed, but that a C can exist where C never existed at all in the entire genetic strand. "

Right...

OK...

Such strawmen you all always use....
 
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tas8831

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Better than you it appears since you can’t understand lines connecting to non-existent common ancestors are imaginary lines drawn to imaginary ancestors......

Ah, so the lines on maps are imaginary as well?

After all, when I drive on a road, it is not a line.

Thanks for proving that maps are just man-made imaginary fantasies.
 
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tas8831

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Its only you that considers a genome with more function as magical. Tas has the same problem with math. If the genome is now, let’s use 80% non-functional due to mutational errors, then it was once 80% more functional.

Who said that the non-functional part of a genome was due to mutational errors?

More "allie"-style science from the creationist?
 
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tas8831

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Hello all -

I came across this diagram that was presented on another forum, and it received an interesting interpretation from a creationist there. Can a creationist tell us what they think this diagram indicates, in terms of who is related to who and how?

thanks!

primate_phylog_1_.gif


For those wanting to go off the rails with condemnations of all things scientific, please be advised to read this from the OP, and pay attention to the bolded part:


Can a creationist tell us what they think this diagram indicates, in terms of who is related to who and how?


Simple request, really.

Pity I got Gish Gallops and dodging.
 
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tas8831

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Sure! To being with, a cladogram (this being one of many, some of which look very different) is an intelligently designed diagram that works off the assumed “ancestor of the gaps” notion.

Ah - 'intelligently designed.'

I find it odd that someone with a claimed 30 years of study and talking to scientists on these subjects would dive immediately for the lamest of all implied arguments (only referring to bible verses is lamer, IMO) - that something about the analysis is man-made, therefore, suspect.

I have even seen creationists so desperate to diminish the impact of some research that they have gone so far to claim that the building the research was done in was 'intelligently designed' - implying that therefore, somehow, intelligent design creationism has merit.

But yes - let us concede that analytical programs are, in fact, 'intelligently designed' and man-made.

Just like the material used by creation scientists who try to claim that evolution is false.
Just like the bible.

More later - off to an evilution meeting...
 
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Justatruthseeker

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When was it "80% more functional"? At the time of Noah's flood? At the time of Creation?
At creation, why don’t you ask your biologists when it was more functional, since they claim it’s less functional now.

I mean certainly you can trace it backwards, I mean you all claim you can trace mutations backwards and since the non-functionality was caused by mutations.....

Or is it in reality tracing mutations backwards is impossible since you have no DNA to compare it to for any but creatures from the modern era?

It’s only claims that it shows history. Not one speck of DNA exists for any of the creatures that existed before modern times. In other words, no DNA exists from any claimed common ancestor or those before it, to make your presumptions any more than wishful thinking.

Since you can’t trace those mutations backwards and tell us when it was more functional, it shows your other claims for what they are.... pure evolutionary PR trash.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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For those wanting to go off the rails with condemnations of all things scientific, please be advised to read this from the OP, and pay attention to the bolded part:


Can a creationist tell us what they think this diagram indicates, in terms of who is related to who and how?


Simple request, really.

Pity I got Gish Gallops and dodging.

You got truth, something your unfamiliar with and so have trouble recognizing. Each line ends abruptly, connected only by common ancestors that can’t be found for any single line to connect it to the one before.

There is no indication of who is related to who as every line ends and requires we insert non-existent ancestors to show relation.

Take away those imaginary lines to imaginary common ancestors and let’s see what it shows. Every type a distinct creation, not related to any of the others through imaginary lines and imaginary common ancestors.

You just can’t recognize truth, so used to your brainwashed evolutionary PR trash are you.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Spelling error?

Sure - how could I possibly expect someone implying amazing expertise on a subject to be familiar with the actual terminology of that subject. How nit-picky...



So two links to two places selling a book about a guy researching his family history:


The Genetic Strand is the story of a writer's investigation, using DNA science, into the tale of his family's origins. National Book Award winner Edward Ball has turned his probing gaze on the microcosm of the human genome, and not just any human genome -- that of his slave-holding ancestors. What is the legacy of such a family history, and can DNA say something about it?​


justifies you writing:

"I didnt ask you to show me that a C can be inserted between a T and G where the C already existed, but that a C can exist where C never existed at all in the entire genetic strand. "

Right...

OK...
And yet a C inserted where a T was is exactly single-nucleotide polymorphism, which we have already found in another thread is caused by random changes during development, or as the Grants discovered, was caused by interactions during interbreeding, that affected several loci at the same time.

But then we found your biggest argument in that thread was that loci was plural and locus was singular.

Seems your other arguments are always shown to be wrong, and so you then are forced to fall back to simple spelling errors to defend your stance. Just pathetic when you think about it...
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Ah - 'intelligently designed.'

I find it odd that someone with a claimed 30 years of study and talking to scientists on these subjects would dive immediately for the lamest of all implied arguments (only referring to bible verses is lamer, IMO) - that something about the analysis is man-made, therefore, suspect.

I have even seen creationists so desperate to diminish the impact of some research that they have gone so far to claim that the building the research was done in was 'intelligently designed' - implying that therefore, somehow, intelligent design creationism has merit.

But yes - let us concede that analytical programs are, in fact, 'intelligently designed' and man-made.

Just like the material used by creation scientists who try to claim that evolution is false.
Just like the bible.

More later - off to an evilution meeting...
Yes, the impact of the research.... we can’t find any proof of relationship, so we will insert imaginary common ancestors and connect them with imaginary lines and proclaim fact, from an imaginary presumption....

I’ve even seen evolutionists claiming a mutation that randomly changes a single genetic locus, is more important than interbreeding which changes the same locus and several other loci simulataneously at the same time. So brainwashed are they into believing only mutations are important. They are virtually irrelevant in the long run, interbreeding being the main cause of variation.

But that’s why Asian remain Asian until they interbreed with another and create a new variation, because those changes during development are paramount. And to forstall your next argument, the changes in Asians when interbreeding only with other Asians, since it is affecting multiple genetic loci simultaneously, will in the long term cause its own change in the Asian, greater than a mutation that simply affects a single genetic locus. The problem is most creatures go extinct before any change within the breed or subspecies by mutation or interbreeding with others of the same subspecies can take effect and cause change in form, seen only from interbreeding.

And to forstall your next argument, the human species is not extinct.... only the subspecies that arose from those simultaneous changes are extinct. You know, Neanderthal, etc. But your next argument will attempt to rewrite the dictionary, and an evolutionist correctly pointed out what arguments that attempt to do that are.
 
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AV1611VET

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Can a creationist tell us what they think this diagram indicates, in terms of who is related to who and how?
I don't know about who is related to who and how, but to me the diagram looks like it's saying that evolution is nothing more than a game of Plinko.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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I don't know about who is related to who and how, but to me the diagram looks like it's saying that evolution is nothing more than a game of Plinko.
Hah!

Now that you mention it it rather does, doesn’t it? :)
 
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pshun2404

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Though accused of not getting it I do. I simply agree with the general conclusion of most scientists. Read on (again not my words...the words of researchers who use the tool)

Cladistics reliability

What is cladistics? How reliable is it?

“However, like any computerized method, cladistics suffers from the problem that the quality of the output it produces is entirely dependent on the quality of the input it is given - or, to put it another way, ``garbage in, garbage out''. There are several choices that the worker must make before the computer, in all its objectivity, can be put to work, and some further issues may also cast doubt over the results of a cladistic analysis.

Example: “Poorly chosen characters can yield incorrect results.”

Another way in which a worker's preconceived ideas can affect the result of a cladistic analysis is in the assumptions about the primitive states of the characters. Since we can't know what taxon is actually the most recent common ancestor of those being analyzed, we use a well-understood outgroup as a proxy for that ancestor - that is, a taxon outside of, but as close as possible to, the clade containing the taxa to be analysed. For example, in the analysis above, if we think that the phylogeny looks like this:

A, B and C (in some combination)

\ | /

\|/

V Haplocanthosaurus

\/

\ Jobaria

\/

Then we might perform the analysis on the assumption that A, B and C's common ancestor had the same character states as Haplocanthosaurus; or, if we decided that its remains are too fragmentary to be used in this way, we might use the less closely related but better represented Jobaria. In practice, several different outgroups are typically analyzed to help determine the most likely ancestral state of characters...

the choice of taxa to use as outgroups is clearly a subjective one: it is chosen on the basis of how the phylogeny is likely to look...

In choosing the most likely candidate tree, cladistics programs rely on the principle of parsimony; but nature is not always parsimonious!

Finally, there is an implicit assumption that similarity of form - which is what cladistic analysis discovers and measures - implies commonality of descent."

Problems with the use of cladistic analysis in palaeoanthropology

D. Curnoe

Problems with the use of cladistic analysis in palaeoanthropology. - PubMed - NCBI

"Cladistic analysis is a popular method for reconstructing evolutionary relationships on the human lineage. However, it has limitations and hidden assumptions that are often not considered by palaeoanthropologists. Some researchers who are opposed to its use regard cladistics as the preferred method for taxonomic "splitters" and claim it has lead to a revitalization of typology. Typology remains a part of human evolutionary studies, regardless of the acceptance or use of cladistics. The assumption/preference for "splitting" over "lumping" in cladistics (alpha) taxonomy and the general failure to evaluate (post-hoc) such taxonomies have served to reinforce this assertion. Researchers have also adopted a number of practices that are logically untenable or introduce considerable error.


The method suffers a logical weakness, or circularity, leading to bias when characters with multiple states are used. Coding of such characters can only be done using prior criteria, and this is usually done using an existing phylogenetic scheme.

...variation within species...While this form of variation is usually ignored by palaeoanthropologists, when characters are recognized as varying, their treatment as a separate state adds considerable error to cladograms.

All published human cladograms fail to meet standard quality criteria indicating that none of them may be considered reliable. The continuing uncertainty over the number and composition of fossil human species is the largest single source of error for cladistics and human phylogenetic reconstruction."

The UCLA Phylogeny Student handout says...

Cladistic analysis makes the assumption that species share derived characters because they share a common ancestor that had that derived character. However, sometimes convergences occur and there are independent origins of a feature in unrelated lineages. For example, the fins of sharks, the flippers of dolphins, and the wings of penguins look alike but arose independently in the cartilaginous fishes, the mammals, and the birds. These structures are analogous, not homlogous.

Second, cladistic analysis assumes that if a species does not have a derived character, it is because its ancestor diverged from the lineage that developed the derived character before the derive character originated. However, sometimes lineages have reversals—they have a derived character and it reverts to an ancestral type. For example, having hair is a derived character of mammals as compared with reptiles. Dolphins have no hair because of a reversal—the mammalian ancestors of dolphins had hair and then the dolphin ancestor lost it. Hairlessness in dolphins and alligators (for example) is analogous, not homologous”


Now does this mean cladograms are not useful tools? No! Cladograms are very useful tools for categorization (on many levels). In fact they are one of our more reliable tools (though still being inherently unreliable for all these reasons these scientists have described).

Via clades assimilating molecular data used to formulate phylogenetic trees we have now classified 26,000 species and sub-species of ray fish out of 448 families going all the way back to the Jurasic period. These constitute, in Evolutionary terms, around 40 orders of fish. Though still all fish.

Besides the movable jaw almost all hold in common, and the fan quality of their fins, there are three of four regions on the genome that are almost identical. In this method of classification we can group about 90% of all extant fish into distinct sub-groups for further identification. The tool function of Clades allows us to do all this for organizational purposes making the focus much clearer for researchers. But as these scientists point out they have a number of factors making them unreliable.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Though accused of not getting it I do. I simply agree with the general conclusion of most scientists. Read on (again not my words...the words of researchers who use the tool)

Cladistics reliability

What is cladistics? How reliable is it?

“However, like any computerized method, cladistics suffers from the problem that the quality of the output it produces is entirely dependent on the quality of the input it is given - or, to put it another way, ``garbage in, garbage out''. There are several choices that the worker must make before the computer, in all its objectivity, can be put to work, and some further issues may also cast doubt over the results of a cladistic analysis.

Example: “Poorly chosen characters can yield incorrect results.”

Another way in which a worker's preconceived ideas can affect the result of a cladistic analysis is in the assumptions about the primitive states of the characters. Since we can't know what taxon is actually the most recent common ancestor of those being analyzed, we use a well-understood outgroup as a proxy for that ancestor - that is, a taxon outside of, but as close as possible to, the clade containing the taxa to be analysed. For example, in the analysis above, if we think that the phylogeny looks like this:

A, B and C (in some combination)

\ | /

\|/

V Haplocanthosaurus

\/

\ Jobaria

\/

Then we might perform the analysis on the assumption that A, B and C's common ancestor had the same character states as Haplocanthosaurus; or, if we decided that its remains are too fragmentary to be used in this way, we might use the less closely related but better represented Jobaria. In practice, several different outgroups are typically analyzed to help determine the most likely ancestral state of characters...

the choice of taxa to use as outgroups is clearly a subjective one: it is chosen on the basis of how the phylogeny is likely to look...

In choosing the most likely candidate tree, cladistics programs rely on the principle of parsimony; but nature is not always parsimonious!

Finally, there is an implicit assumption that similarity of form - which is what cladistic analysis discovers and measures - implies commonality of descent."

Problems with the use of cladistic analysis in palaeoanthropology

D. Curnoe

Problems with the use of cladistic analysis in palaeoanthropology. - PubMed - NCBI

"Cladistic analysis is a popular method for reconstructing evolutionary relationships on the human lineage. However, it has limitations and hidden assumptions that are often not considered by palaeoanthropologists. Some researchers who are opposed to its use regard cladistics as the preferred method for taxonomic "splitters" and claim it has lead to a revitalization of typology. Typology remains a part of human evolutionary studies, regardless of the acceptance or use of cladistics. The assumption/preference for "splitting" over "lumping" in cladistics (alpha) taxonomy and the general failure to evaluate (post-hoc) such taxonomies have served to reinforce this assertion. Researchers have also adopted a number of practices that are logically untenable or introduce considerable error.


The method suffers a logical weakness, or circularity, leading to bias when characters with multiple states are used. Coding of such characters can only be done using prior criteria, and this is usually done using an existing phylogenetic scheme.

...variation within species...While this form of variation is usually ignored by palaeoanthropologists, when characters are recognized as varying, their treatment as a separate state adds considerable error to cladograms.

All published human cladograms fail to meet standard quality criteria indicating that none of them may be considered reliable. The continuing uncertainty over the number and composition of fossil human species is the largest single source of error for cladistics and human phylogenetic reconstruction."

The UCLA Phylogeny Student handout says...

Cladistic analysis makes the assumption that species share derived characters because they share a common ancestor that had that derived character. However, sometimes convergences occur and there are independent origins of a feature in unrelated lineages. For example, the fins of sharks, the flippers of dolphins, and the wings of penguins look alike but arose independently in the cartilaginous fishes, the mammals, and the birds. These structures are analogous, not homlogous.

Second, cladistic analysis assumes that if a species does not have a derived character, it is because its ancestor diverged from the lineage that developed the derived character before the derive character originated. However, sometimes lineages have reversals—they have a derived character and it reverts to an ancestral type. For example, having hair is a derived character of mammals as compared with reptiles. Dolphins have no hair because of a reversal—the mammalian ancestors of dolphins had hair and then the dolphin ancestor lost it. Hairlessness in dolphins and alligators (for example) is analogous, not homologous”


Now does this mean cladograms are not useful tools? No! Cladograms are very useful tools for categorization (on many levels). In fact they are one of our more reliable tools (though still being inherently unreliable for all these reasons these scientists have described).

Via clades assimilating molecular data used to formulate phylogenetic trees we have now classified 26,000 species and sub-species of ray fish out of 448 families going all the way back to the Jurasic period. These constitute, in Evolutionary terms, around 40 orders of fish. Though still all fish.

Besides the movable jaw almost all hold in common, and the fan quality of their fins, there are three of four regions on the genome that are almost identical. In this method of classification we can group about 90% of all extant fish into distinct sub-groups for further identification. The tool function of Clades allows us to do all this for organizational purposes making the focus much clearer for researchers. But as these scientists point out they have a number of factors making them unreliable.
Hush you, how dare you quote scientists showing their own cladograms are inherently unreliable. Why you must be completely dense as you surely had to misunderstand everything you were just told.

I expect that to be the gist and only argument henceforth against you and the facts. :)

You do understand I was being sarcastic and answering as an evolutionist will surely answer, because you just proved to them the unreliability of their sacred alter of divination.

I mean surely you just don’t understand. Lol, gotta love their reliance on garbage in thinking they got facts out....
 
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pitabread

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Always fascinating how creationists latch onto "weaknesses" or "limitations" within scientific methods. Those who understand science, understand that science is ultimately about trying to understand and model reality. However, reality is essentially infinitely complex; any sort of modeling of reality will always be simplified. And with simplification comes margins of error or other limitations. That's part and parcel to the scientific method. Anyone who has ever taken a statistics course should also be able to appreciate this.

Yet, ultimately, science even with its limitations yields utility which is why we pursue scientific inquiry in the first place. And it is that utility which I doubt our creationist friends will be so quick to give up, even if they reject the underlying science in the process.
 
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AV1611VET

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Always fascinating how creationists lack onto "weaknesses" or "limitations" within scientific methods.
You mean "latch on to"?
pitabread said:
Those who understand science, understand that science is ultimately about trying to understand and model reality. However, reality is essentially infinitely complex; any sort of modeling of reality will always be simplified. And with simplification comes margins of error or other limitations. That's part and parcel to the scientific method. Anyone who has ever taken a statistics course should also be able to appreciate this.
Translation:

Science is myopic.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Always fascinating how creationists lack onto "weaknesses" or "limitations" within scientific methods. Those who understand science, understand that science is ultimately about trying to understand and model reality. However, reality is essentially infinitely complex; any sort of modeling of reality will always be simplified. And with simplification comes margins of error or other limitations. That's part and parcel to the scientific method. Anyone who has ever taken a statistics course should also be able to appreciate this.
Anyone who understands science understands its inherent weaknesses. Trying to model the complexity of creation and putting it into the simple framework of human understanding. Understanding that is fraught with self prejudices, inherent error, and the desire to think one has it all figured out..... this time...... even if every time we thought that we were totally wrong.

Yet, ultimately, science even with its limitations yields utility which is why we pursue scientific inquiry in the first place. And it is that utility which I doubt our creationist friends will be so quick to give up, even if they reject the underlying science in the process.
Science has brought us utility. We have cars, electric lights, airplanes and even the discovery of mold growing on bread that had nothing to do with evolution. It’s your confusing evolution as science, instead of the reality, that they attempt to use science, that gets you into trouble.

The data can be interpreted correctly or incorrectly or a hodgepodge of both.

But yet evolutionists each and every time assure us their interpretations are correct, even if every other age believed they had it correct as well. And time will show this theory as incorrect as all the others.
 
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pitabread

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Understanding that is fraught with self prejudices, inherent error, and the desire to think one has it all figured out..... this time...... even if every time we thought that we were totally wrong.

Except nobody thinks we have everything figured out; not by a long shot. That's precisely why scientific inquiry is unending.

We have cars, electric lights, airplanes and even the discovery of mold growing on bread that had nothing to do with evolution. It’s your confusing evolution as science, instead of the reality, that they attempt to use science, that gets you into trouble.

And evolutionary biology also has real world application. Creationists keep denying it, but it's a basic fact.

And time will show this theory as incorrect as all the others.

Ah yes, the ol' "future promises" that creationists keep making about the demise of evolution. Similar promises which have been made for over a hundred years now and seem to be no closer to being realized. And meanwhile, creationist beliefs are slowly dying off.

So how 'bout we check back in 20 years or so and see how things have gone for you. ;)
 
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Justatruthseeker

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And I’d like to point out something in pshun’s answer.

variation within species...While this form of variation is usually ignored by palaeoanthropologists, when characters are recognized as varying, their treatment as a separate state adds considerable error to cladograms.”

Which is exactly what I have been trying to tell you all is the problem from the beginning. You are treating those variations within the species, subspecies, as separate and distinct species, leading to considerable error. Don’t take my word for it, take the word of your experts about how considerable the error can become. Then take the word of your experts on what a subspecies is and quit listening to pseudo scientists that don’t do either. I am not objecting to the data, something some of you have a problem understanding, just your misinterpretation of the data by ignoring that variation within species and treating them as separate states.

Hence variation in finches, humans, dogs, cats, bears, etc, etc, etc, is not a separate state and treating them as such adds considerable error to your end beliefs.

That such a thing as Speciation exists.
 
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Except nobody thinks we have everything figured out; not by a long shot. That's precisely why scientific inquiry is unending.
Sure you do, you keep telling us all about the facts, even if those facts always end up being non-factual however many years down the road.

And evolutionary biology also has real world application. Creationists keep denying it, but it's a basic fact.
It has nothing to do with anything. A creationist scientist is fully able to use biology to make the same results.


Ah yes, the ol' "future promises" that creationists keep making about the demise of evolution. Similar promises which have been made for over a hundred years now and seem to be no closer to being realized. And meanwhile, creationist beliefs are slowly dying off.
Future promises? Like if I wait 10 million years I’ll be able to see evolution in action, just not right now?

So how 'bout we check back in 20 years or so and see how things have gone for you. ;)
Sure, and we’ll see how well things have gone for you as well. How many more epicycles you needed to add to keep your theory from falsification...

Let’s test your theory....

How Christianity is Growing Around the World
 
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