Why I dislike Calvinism

[FreeGrace2]

Not so fast for it seems he did not die for all.

JM used to teach unlimited atonement. Seems he's flip-flopped.

However, who cares what JM thinks. Let's just believe what the Bible says.
2 Cor 5:14,15 -
14 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
Heb 2:9 - But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
1 Pet 3:18 - For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.

For whom did Jesus come to save? The sick, the lost, the poor, the unrighteous, the ungodly, and sinners.

Matt 9:12 On hearing this, Jesus said, it is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. Are just the elect “sick”?

Luke 19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost. Are just the elect “lost”?

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. Are just the elect poor?

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ died for sins once FOR ALL, the righteous (Christ) for the unrighteous (humanity, all of them), to bring you to God. Are just the elect unrighteous?

Rom 5:6 You see, just at the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Are just the elect ungodly?

Mark 2:17 On hearing this, Jesus said to them, it is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners. Are just the elect sinners?

Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

The entire human race is described as sick, lost, poor, unrighteous, ungodly, and sinners. Every single one of us.

If Christ died for just the elect, then reformed theology leads to universalism, because of these verses. That means the non elect are neither sick, lost, poor, unrighteous, ungodly, or sinners. So they don’t need salvation. And Christ wouldn’t need to die for any of them.

Is there any Calvinist able to answer any of these questions?

 

[FreeGrace2]

The sheep are His sheep..

Not at all. Where Jesus says He would die for THE sheep, He also mentioned His sheep, other sheep of His and those sheep who were not His.

So when He mentions THE sheep, He is referring to everyone. All the sheep. Not just His.

If the 3rd point of TULIP were true, He would have said He would die for HIS sheep.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Let's see what this Bible scholar has to say about it.


For Whom Did Christ Die? | Desiring God

 

[Doug Melven]

MDC said: ↑
Christ death DID actually save people. Which is obvious you deny.

And any Calvinist is invited to explain 1 Pet 3:18 - For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.

If Christ died only for some, then only THEY are "the unrighteous".

Please explain that.

Sorry for the confusion. If Christ hadn't died, nobody could be saved. But it will not avail anyone who does not believe He died for them.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

And who is the world?
M-Bob


Did Jesus Die for Everyone?:

 

[MDC]

Sorry for the confusion. If Christ hadn't died, nobody could be saved. But it will not avail anyone who does not believe He died for them.

So You profess to be saved correct? And yet Christ did no more for you than for the one who parishes to hell. So believing in Christ to you means what?

 

[Doug Melven]

And who is the world?
M-Bob


Did Jesus Die for Everyone?:

Strong's No.: G2889
Greek: κόσμος
Transliteration: kosmos
Pronunciation: kos'-mos
Definition: Probably from the base of G2865; orderly arrangement that is decoration; by implication the world (in a wide or narrow sense including its inhabitants literally or figuratively [morally]): - adorning world.u
Psalm 50:12
If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof.
Fullness would be all the inhabitants, all the animal and anything else you can think of.

 

[Doug Melven]

So You profess to be saved correct? And yet Christ did no more for you than for the one who parishes to hell. So believing in Christ to you means what?

He gave me the gift of eternal life. He won't give it to anyone who will not accept it. They MUST believe.
Acts 16:31, John 3:16, John 3:36

 

[Doug Melven]

And yet Christ did no more for you than for the one who parishes to hell.

Kind of humbling isn't it? Before you knew Christ you were the same as everybody else.

 

[MDC]

He gave me the gift of eternal life. He won't give it to anyone who will not accept it. They MUST believe.
Acts 16:31, John 3:16, John 3:36

What exactly did Christ do to attain eternal life for a believer?

 

[Mountainmanbob]

For Limited Atonement
If Jesus actually died for the sins of everyone who ever lived, then why does anyone go to hell? This argument holds that if Jesus actually did pay for everyone's sins, including unbelief, then no one should go to hell. The counter argument is that people must believe to be saved. The answer to this is that even disbelief is a sin that has been paid for; therefore, no one should go to hell. But, since people do go to hell, it is logical to believe that Jesus only bore the sins of the Christians. The Reformed theologians would say that though Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not intended for all.

Scriptures used to support limited atonement are as follows:

• Jesus died for 'many.'
  • Matt. 26:28, "for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins."
• Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33);
  • John 10:11,15 "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep...15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep."
  • Matt. 25:32-33, "And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left."
• Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world;
  • John 17:9, "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom Thou hast given Me; for they are Thine;"
• The Church was purchased by Christ, not all people.
  • Acts 20:28, "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood."
  • Eph. 5:25-27, "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her; 26 that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she should be holy and blameless."
• Prophecy of Jesus' crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).
  • Isaiah 53:12, "Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, and He will divide the booty with the strong; because He poured out Himself to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet He Himself bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors

 

[FreeGrace2]

Let's see what this Bible scholar has to say about it.


For Whom Did Christ Die? | Desiring God

I'm still sticking with what the Word of God has already said about it.

For whom did Jesus come to save? The sick, the lost, the poor, the unrighteous, the ungodly, and sinners.

Matt 9:12 On hearing this, Jesus said, it is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. Are just the elect “sick”?

Luke 19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost. Are just the elect “lost”?

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. Are just the elect poor?

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ died for sins once FOR ALL, the righteous (Christ) for the unrighteous (humanity, all of them), to bring you to God. Are just the elect unrighteous?

Rom 5:6 You see, just at the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Are just the elect ungodly?

Mark 2:17 On hearing this, Jesus said to them, it is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners. Are just the elect sinners?

Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

The entire human race is described as sick, lost, poor, unrighteous, ungodly, and sinners. Every single one of us.

If Christ died for just the elect, then reformed theology leads to universalism, because of these verses. That means the non elect are neither sick, lost, poor, unrighteous, ungodly, or sinners. So they don’t need salvation. And Christ wouldn’t need to die for any of them.

Please answer the questions for each verse. Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Sorry for the confusion. If Christ hadn't died, nobody could be saved. But it will not avail anyone who does not believe He died for them.

Yes, sir!

 

[FreeGrace2]

And who is the world?
M-Bob

Everyone. Mankind. Each person.

Did Jesus Die for Everyone?:

Yes, He did.

No amount of verse twisting can change the very plain meaning of 2 Cor 5:14,15,19, Heb 2:9 and 1 Pet 3:18.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So You profess to be saved correct? And yet Christ did no more for you than for the one who parishes to hell.

This is totally ingenuous. Of course He did more than die for us. He actually saves those who believe. As Scripture says: 1 Cor 1:21.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Strong's No.: G2889
Greek: κόσμος
Transliteration: kosmos
Pronunciation: kos'-mos
Definition: Probably from the base of G2865; orderly arrangement that is decoration; by implication the world (in a wide or narrow sense including its inhabitants literally or figuratively [morally]): - adorning world.u
Psalm 50:12
If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof.
Fullness would be all the inhabitants, all the animal and anything else you can think of.

Just to note; when the "narrow sense" is meant, there will ALWAYS be context to make that crystal clear. And none of the "all" verses have such a context for a narrow sense. It's read into the verse by Calvinist eisegesis.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Everyone. Mankind. Each person.

"THE 'WORLD' OF JOHN 3:16 DOES NOT MEAN . . ." by Rev. David ...
"THE 'WORLD' OF JOHN 3:16 DOES NOT MEAN . . ." by Rev. David Engelsma
The word, world, in John 3:16 does not mean 'all men without exception.' We plead ... Nevertheless, many people whom God loves, whom God desires to save, and for whom Jesus died perish in hell, unsaved. .... It cannot mean the whole human race, for one half of the race was already in hell when Christ came to earth.

 

[FreeGrace2]

For Limited Atonement
If Jesus actually died for the sins of everyone who ever lived, then why does anyone go to hell?

For only one reason. They failed to accept the free gift of eternal life.

But, go ahead and try to refute that gem.

This argument holds that if Jesus actually did pay for everyone's sins, including unbelief, then no one should go to hell.

Not so fast. The promise of never perishing is only for recipients of eternal life, according to Jesus in John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

The counter argument is that people must believe to be saved.

No, it's the biblical argument. Acts 16:31, John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:40, 47, 1 Tim 1:16.

The answer to this is that even disbelief is a sin that has been paid for; therefore, no one should go to hell.

Faulty assumption. Going to hell isn't even about sin. It's about whether one has received the free gift of eternal life. Rev 20:15.

But, since people do go to hell, it is logical to believe that Jesus only bore the sins of the Christians.

Logical only from a non-biblical viewpoint.

The Reformed theologians would say that though Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not intended for all.

Which is why reformed theologians are wrong.

Scriptures used to support limited atonement are as follows:

• Jesus died for 'many.'

Matt. 26:28, "for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins."

The Greek word means "the masses".

Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33);John 10:11,15 "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep...15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep."

Don't confuse Matt 25 with John 10. There are NO goats in John 10. Only HIS sheep, other sheep of HIS, those NOT of His sheep, and THE sheep, meaning all the sheep.

Matt. 25:32-33, "And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left."

Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world;
John 17:9, "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom Thou hast given Me; for they are Thine;"

No goats here either. Neither verse/passage teaches limited atonement in any sense.

The Church was purchased by Christ, not all people.Acts 20:28, "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood."

Now, IF the verse said "ONLY the Church was purchased by Christ", you'd have a point, but that point would be refuted by ALL the OT believers, who AREN'T part of the church.

Eph. 5:25-27, "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her; 26 that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she should be holy and blameless."

I don't see the word "only" or "just" before "the church".

You're just assuming way too much here.

Prophecy of Jesus' crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).
Isaiah 53:12, "Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, and He will divide the booty with the strong; because He poured out Himself to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet He Himself bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors

Here's the meaning of the Hebrew word for "many":
OT:7227 rab (rab); by contracted from OT:7231; abundant (in quantity, size, age, number, rank, quality):

Now, if you really want to argue that the "many" here means less than the whole, then you've got a huge problem with Matt 7:
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

These 2 verses are clear about the fact that most humans will not be saved.

So, now please reconcile Isa 53:12 with Matt 7:13,14, if you can.

 

[FreeGrace2]

"THE 'WORLD' OF JOHN 3:16 DOES NOT MEAN . . ." by Rev. David ...
"THE 'WORLD' OF JOHN 3:16 DOES NOT MEAN . . ." by Rev. David Engelsma
The word, world, in John 3:16 does not mean 'all men without exception.' We plead ... Nevertheless, many people whom God loves, whom God desires to save, and for whom Jesus died perish in hell, unsaved. .... It cannot mean the whole human race, for one half of the race was already in hell when Christ came to earth.

Doesn't matter what Rev David Engelsma says. There is nothing in context to indicate less than everyone in the world.

Not to mention all the verses that plainly say that Christ died for all.

 

[Doug Melven]

This argument holds that if Jesus actually did pay for everyone's sins, including unbelief, then no one should go to hell.

Who said the sin of unbelief was paid for?
Jesus said in John 16 that the Holy Spirit would convict the world of unbelief.

It cannot mean the whole human race, for one half of the race was already in hell when Christ came to earth.

Look at Hebrews 11 and 12:1-3.
Lots of people got saved in the OT by faith.