Why I dislike Calvinism

[Mountainmanbob]

Could you show some Scripture to show that He didn't die for everybody.

John 10 provides more insight into the issue of whom Jesus died for. In that passage we see that Christ died for His sheep (John 10:11, 15). Also, all who are His sheep will come to Him (verses 4 and 27), and they are kept secure in Christ

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world;
John 17:9, "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom Thou hast given Me; for they are Thine;"

 

[Doug Melven]

The T in TULIP. Taken from T.U.L.I.P. or, The Five Points of Calvinism
T - Total Depravity
That means simply MAN is DEAD. The Bible says that you and I are dead in trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1-6) unless we are born again. DEAD!!! More than that, the man or woman who is dead in sin hates God, and his "carnal mind" is "enmity against God" (Rom. 8:7). His will is stubbornly steeled against God. This Biblical idea changes a lot of modern talk about salvation.
Consider what that means:

1. Can a man do good works then, if he is not a Christian who is born again? No. "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin" (Rom. 14:23).
2. Can a man want to be born again and follow instructions on "how to do it?" No, for that would be like saying that a man in a grave can desire to come out of the grave, or follow instructions on how to be made alive. It would be like trying to lure him out of the grave. "It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing" (John 6:33).
3. Can any man "accept Christ" as his personal Savior, so that he becomes saved after that? Of course not. Accepting Christ is a good work done only by a Christian. Only AFTER God makes a person alive, can he and will he accept Christ. "No man can come unto me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him" (John 6:44).
4. Can you "offer salvation" to anyone? That is surely impossible. One might as well offer food to a dead man than salvation to a dead sinner (Eph.2:1-2).

ONLY GOD CAN MAKE US ALIVE. AND GOD DOES THAT SOVEREIGNLY - WITHOUT OUR AID, WITHOUT OUR ASKING. From beginning to end, "Salvation is of the Lord" (Jonah 2:9). This is the faith that we preach, because it is Biblical, because it is the FAITH of our fathers, which we love, still living in our hearts, and because it gives God all the glory!

I agree with the first lines that say we are dead in trespasses and sins and I believe without Christ we are evil. But the conclusions that are drawn from that I disagree with. They are unScriptural.
God gave us the law to show how depraved we are.
In John 16 Jesus said the Holy Spirit would convict the world of unbelief.
He does that so we can make a decision to believe in Jesus.
He sends people to preach the Gospel, unless we hear it we cannot make a decision for Christ.

If someone needed saving because they were drowning and they cried out for help, and somebody came and saved them how would that give any glory whatsoever to the person who got saved.
The law showed us our sinful nature.
If I have this wrong about the law or preaching could one of you Calvinists explain the purpose of the law and preaching of the Gospel?

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Blessed are the preachers of the Word.

Faith comes by the hearing of the Word.

But, for the one's not chosen it will be foolishness to them.

Paul had not a clue until God removed his blinders. What did he do before believing -- nothing.

M-Bob

 

[Doug Melven]

John 10 provides more insight into the issue of whom Jesus died for. In that passage we see that Christ died for His sheep (John 10:11, 15). Also, all who are His sheep will come to Him (verses 4 and 27), and they are kept secure in Christ

This verse does not say He died ONLY for His sheep.
1 John 2:2 says that He was the propitiation for our sin, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world;
John 17:9, "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom Thou hast given Me; for they are Thine;"

This High Priestly prayer for believers that they would be one just as He is one with the Father. Why would He pray for unbelievers to be in unity?
We also have Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Then we have 2 Corinthians 5:14-15
5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

It's a work of the Holy Spirit (only).

Explain Paul's experience.

M-Bob

 

[Doug Melven]

So if the person understands what is preached he can make a decision for Christ.
What happens if the preacher goes somewhere else or whatever else he would like to do or be like Mark and leave the work which made Paul think him untrustworthy to go out again.
Or do believers not have freewill in your opinion?

 

[Mountainmanbob]

 

[Mountainmanbob]

 

[Doug Melven]

It's a work of the Holy Spirit (only).

Explain Paul's experience.

M-Bob

Paul had been under conviction already as evidenced by Jesus' statement it is hard for you to kick against the pricks. He must have been resisting the Holy Spirit.
Then he encountered Jesus on the road to Damascus and when he saw the risen Christ in all His glory he gave up and said "what would You have me do"?
At no point did Jesus bypass his will. Saul just had a spectacular vision of Jesus.
I would ask you about Paul, why did Jesus have to give this spectacular vision of Himself?
Why wouldn't He just do like He would with all the rest of believers? Other believers don't get a spectacular vision of Jesus.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

This video in a most excellent way explains the debate in great detail straight from the Bible.

M-Bob

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"The Calvinist claim that God elects to salvation unconditionally removes faith from the equation,"

Think not and no calvinist believes that.
M-Bob

What does the "U" in TULIP mean?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Did he die for the one's he said that He never knew?
I would think not.

The Bible teaches otherwise, and very plainly.
2 Cor 5:14,15 says He died for all.
Heb 2:9 says He tasted death for all.
1 John 2:2 says He is the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the whole world.

Did he die for the one's who's father is the devil -- I would think not.

See above.

[QUTOE]Did He die for the one's in hell?[/QUOTE]
See above.

But since you disagree, please cite the specific verse that actually says that Christ died only for the elect. That alone would prove your claim.

 

[FreeGrace2]

This video in a most excellent way explains the debate in great detail straight from the Bible.

M-Bob

Since you've apparently seen the entire view, how about cutting to the chase and give us the specific verses that teach that Christ didn't die for everyone?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Doug Melven said: ↑
Could you show some Scripture to show that He didn't die for everybody.

John 10 provides more insight into the issue of whom Jesus died for.

Quite right! And in that chapter, Jesus makes note that there are sheep that are His (v.14,27), other sheep that are His (v.16), and those who were not of His sheep (v.26) and "the sheep", meaning all of the above (v.11, 15).

Therefore, His death for "the sheep" means He died for all of them, His, others that are His, and those that were not His.

In that passage we see that Christ died for His sheep (John 10:11, 15).

Please review the verses. None of them say He died for "His sheep" as you claim.

Also, all who are His sheep will come to Him (verses 4 and 27), and they are kept secure in Christ

Of course His sheep will come to Him. He was clear about who He was and how to be saved.

7Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep.
9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world;
John 17:9, "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom Thou hast given Me; for they are Thine;"

Doesn't matter. 1 John 2:2 says He is the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the whole world.

Trying to force "whole world" into "world of the elect" isn't credible at all.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It's a work of the Holy Spirit (only).

Explain Paul's experience.

M-Bob

He saw the Lord on the way to Damascus and believed that He was who He said He was. Rather simple.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

What If no man would have made a decision for Christ then he came and died for nothing.

M-Bob

 

[Mountainmanbob]

To be informed watch The Amazing Grace video above.
M-Bob

 

[ToBeLoved]

What If no man would have made a decision for Christ then he came and died for nothing.

M-Bob

I think the apostles would have been saved.