Do we need the law to stay righteous?

[Doug Melven]

This thread is for those who believe that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone
and because we are righteous we will do good works.
We have been justified apart from the works of the law.
So, the big question is will not obeying the law make me unrighteous?
I believe the answer is no, here's why.
There is no doubt that sin is defined as breaking God's 10 Commandments.
But we see David saying in Psalm 32, "Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity,"
Then in Psalm 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our
transgressions from us.
Then we have John the Baptist saying in John 1:29," Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh
away the sin of the world."
Also Hebrews 9:26 but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away
sin by the sacrifice of himself.
So thanks to Jesus our sin is not an issue.
In 2 Corinthians 5:17-21 we see that we are New Creations, and He does not impute our sins
to us, and He makes us righteous, even the righteousness of Christ, which is perfect.

 

[Tolworth John]

Let me give you an illistration.
You might be the worlds best driver, never have an accident, never had a speeding, parking or any other ticket etc etc etc, but you are only the worlds best driver because not only do you know how to drive and to drive safely but you also know what the laws regarding cars and driving say.
You cannot be the worlds best driver if you don't know what the law says.

In the same way you cannot be a Christian and obey Jesus if you donot know what he has commanded.

Yes Christians are not saved by obeyig the law they just show that they are obedient by obeying it.

 

[Lightsway]

Go to revelation instead .
This line of questioning will find what righteousness is .
The two witnesses .

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

It is my prayer that our Father wake Christians up to their true identity. It is the Holy Ghost that keeps us righteous, not works of the law.

 

[Devin P]

This thread is for those who believe that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone
and because we are righteous we will do good works.
We have been justified apart from the works of the law.
So, the big question is will not obeying the law make me unrighteous?
I believe the answer is no, here's why.
There is no doubt that sin is defined as breaking God's 10 Commandments.
But we see David saying in Psalm 32, "Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity,"
Then in Psalm 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our
transgressions from us.
Then we have John the Baptist saying in John 1:29," Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh
away the sin of the world."
Also Hebrews 9:26 but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away
sin by the sacrifice of himself.
So thanks to Jesus our sin is not an issue.
In 2 Corinthians 5:17-21 we see that we are New Creations, and He does not impute our sins
to us, and He makes us righteous, even the righteousness of Christ, which is perfect.

There's much scripture that attests to this, but I agree. We are not saved by the works of the law, but by faith alone. However, that faith, will be sealed, and perfected by having us do good works. We still need to cleanse our feet, by walking in righteousness. That righteousness is the law of God. Will that make us righteous? No, but we are told to stop sinning, and to avoid sin, what is sin?

Biblically, it's the transgression of the law. So, if we are told to avoid sin, that would mean we are to avoid breaking the law. By having faith that we're saved, and changing our ways to be obedient to God and His law, as opposed to indoctrinated tradition of man, we walk out that faith. Thereby making our faith something that we aren't only professing with our lips, but our hearts as well. Because, faith without works is dead, and the doer of the law is justified, not the hearer only.

Jesus Himself said "depart from me ye who work lawlessness".

He actually said workers of "anomia" the greek word for lawlessness, which was translated as iniquity. Lawlessness is very direct and specific, iniquity, is very broad. Lawlessness closes it for interpretation, iniquity means immoral, but then, since immoral is so broad, it opens it up for interpretation, hereby giving way to the 40,000+ denominations we have today.

If you look back at the history of the believers, the apostles kept the law, and the earliest "primitive church" also kept the law. Not to be saved, which is important to remember, but because they were already saved, and that salvation, as Ezekiel 36:26-27 shows, will result in us desiring to keep God's law out of love, reverence and devotion to Him. Not to be saved, which is something that I feel confuses a lot of people today.

It's also, one of the main reasons I feel jews reject Jesus. Because, if the church today is accurate, and we aren't supposed to keep the law, and Jesus preached doing away with the law, according to the same law Jesus would've been found sinless in, it'd be impossible. Because according to Deuteronomy 13, if Jesus did away with the law, He'd be sinning, and therefore couldn't be the Messiah, but we know that He didn't sin, and therefore couldn't of done away with the law. I feel that if we were to get back to our "primitive roots" of keeping torah because of our already given salvation, the jews would see that Jesus is truly the Messiah, because He's just been wrongly represented for the past 1700 years.

After all, it does say that in the end of time we will be judging the world, and that in the reign of Jesus's 1000 year reign, we'll be again living according to God's law. To what standard will we judge the world, if God's law is done away with? To each individual standard of each individual person judging? No, that'd be too unfair. I believe we're under a huge deception, and have been for 1700+ years. God predicted this in the prophets, that we'd forget His law, His name, and His ways, only in the last of days to come back and remember His law, to do it, and to call on Him by His real true name - יהוה or Yahuah, Yahweh, YHWH there's different ways to pronounce it, but it's not God nor Lord. God is a title, and Lord is something much worse that He's actually commanded us not to call Him. His true name is יהוה.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

This thread is for those who believe that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone
and because we are righteous we will do good works.
We have been justified apart from the works of the law.
So, the big question is will not obeying the law make me unrighteous?
I believe the answer is no, here's why.
There is no doubt that sin is defined as breaking God's 10 Commandments.
But we see David saying in Psalm 32, "Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity,"
Then in Psalm 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our
transgressions from us.
Then we have John the Baptist saying in John 1:29," Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh
away the sin of the world."
Also Hebrews 9:26 but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away
sin by the sacrifice of himself.
So thanks to Jesus our sin is not an issue.
In 2 Corinthians 5:17-21 we see that we are New Creations, and He does not impute our sins
to us, and He makes us righteous, even the righteousness of Christ, which is perfect.

 

[Doug Melven]

Yes Christians are not saved by obeyig the law they just show that they are obedient by obeying it.

Continuing with your illustration.
I consider myself a good driver and I do not know all the laws in my state. But I know if I use good defensive driving techniques and have concern for my fellow drivers I will not get a ticket or get into an accident.
In my state of Michigan, USA it is legal to make a right turn on red or a left turn onto a one-way, but if I go to another state where I don't know if this is legal, I just don't do it.
To apply that to a believer if you have love for your fellow man, you will do what is right by the power of the Holy Ghost living in you. Knowing all 613 laws is not necessary, He knows them and He lives in me.

 

[disciple1]

This thread is for those who believe that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone
and because we are righteous we will do good works.
We have been justified apart from the works of the law.
So, the big question is will not obeying the law make me unrighteous?
I believe the answer is no, here's why.
There is no doubt that sin is defined as breaking God's 10 Commandments.
But we see David saying in Psalm 32, "Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity,"
Then in Psalm 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our
transgressions from us.
Then we have John the Baptist saying in John 1:29," Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh
away the sin of the world."
Also Hebrews 9:26 but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away
sin by the sacrifice of himself.
So thanks to Jesus our sin is not an issue.
In 2 Corinthians 5:17-21 we see that we are New Creations, and He does not impute our sins
to us, and He makes us righteous, even the righteousness of Christ, which is perfect.

Proverbs chapter 10 verse 12
Love covers all wrongs.

Faith without love is nothing.

 

[Tolworth John]

Continuing with your illustration.
I consider myself a good driver and I do not know all the laws in my state. But I know if I use good defensive driving techniques and have concern for my fellow drivers I will not get a ticket or get into an accident.
In my state of Michigan, USA it is legal to make a right turn on red or a left turn onto a one-way, but if I go to another state where I don't know if this is legal, I just don't do it.
To apply that to a believer if you have love for your fellow man, you will do what is right by the power of the Holy Ghost living in you. Knowing all 613 laws is not necessary, He knows them and He lives in me.

Yes and you were taught how to drive in a way that kept you inside the 613 laws, so while you donot know them all you obey them.

The 10 are like your defencive driving a way of staying in the zone of good behaviour/safe driving.

The problem with saying, 'do you have love for others' is that love becomes the reason for actting and also the excuse for sin. ' but I love him/her' is the cry of the adulter.

I agree we must act because we love Jesus and show love to others but our love has to be within the confinds of the 10C.

 

[Doug Melven]

The problem with saying, 'do you have love for others' is that love becomes the reason for actting and also the excuse for sin. ' but I love him/her' is the cry of the adulter.

Committing adultery is not obeying the Holy Spirit.
People who say, "I am forgiven so I can do whatever I want" do not know God's love.
Or those who say, "I am under grace, not law" and use that as an excuse for sin don't understand grace.
People don't need excuses to sin, they have been doing it for a long time, the law just exposed it.

 

[Tolworth John]

Committing adultery is not obeying the Holy Spirit.
People who say, "I am forgiven so I can do whatever I want" do not know God's love.
Or those who say, "I am under grace, not law" and use that as an excuse for sin don't understand grace.
People don't need excuses to sin, they have been doing it for a long time, the law just exposed it.

And you see where I am coming from.
To change the metapher, the 10C are like training wheels on a bike. The knowledge of them keeps a new Christian on the right path.

For older/experienced Christians it is a learn responce to balance the bike while riding.

 

[PeaceJoyLove]

But we see David saying in Psalm 32, "Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity,"
Then in Psalm 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our
transgressions from us.

Which has everything to do with perception as it relates back to the question asked of Adam, "Where art thout?" But each man in his own order...that which is being revealed, a son...

...For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
...If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

 

[expos4ever]

Although it is widely believed, I do not think we are imputed with Christ's righteousness.

The statement that “we become the righteousness of God” (from 2 Corinthian 5:21) is, in and of itself, ambiguous as to intended meaning. It could refer to the imputation of God’s righteousness to the believer. Alternately, it could denote us as the agents who implement God’s righteousness. The material preceding verse 21 strongly favours the latter view:

And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us.


The central idea here is that of the covenant ambassador who represents the one for whom he speaks in such a full and thorough way that he actually becomes the living embodiment of his King. No less than three times does Paul make it clear that the issue on the table is our commissioning from God to be the agents who work out his plan.

So when Paul says "we might become the righteousness of God", he has not changed topics. He is still referring to this commission and is stating that by being given this commission, we become the agents who "carry out" the righteousness of God.

There are other reasons to be suspicious of the doctrine of imputed righteousness.

 

[Kenny'sID]

There's much scripture that attests to this, but I agree. We are not saved by the works of the law, but by faith alone.

Then you disagree that faith without works is dead?

You'll find what you disagree with in the following scripture where they try to explain what faith really means, as in faith in all God and Christ are about, and that they specifically tell us to do. Faith is NOT simply "saying/thinking" I believe/have faith.

If we want an easy unreal/unbiblical way where we can fool ourselves into being allowed to do as we wish and still say we are fine. We can define faith as something that we only need to say/claim and not prove we have, as in "I have faith God will save us just because we claimed we had faith, and believed". That's one definition. The goats in the Sheep and Goats parable claimed they had faith, but we see what it got them

The following describes the other definition, the biblical one and how people manage to ignore what is clearly written here is beyond me.

James 2:14-26King James Version (KJV)
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?"

Read on if you like, lots of good stuff here, that some of you choose to ignore...flat out.

 

[Kenny'sID]

The statement that “we become the righteousness of God” (from 2 Corinthian 5:21) is, in and of itself, ambiguous as to intended meaning.

Agree,

Yet we know such scripture clearly me and what we want it too, if we want it to. Then if one claims as you have, they would be either told or thought not to have the spirit of discernment that allows them to understand as they have.

OSAS is a delusion designed so we can have our cake and eat it too. It is preached because that's what people like/want to hear.

Proverbs 14:12King James Version (KJV)
12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

This thread is for those who believe that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone
and because we are righteous we will do good works.
We have been justified apart from the works of the law.
So, the big question is will not obeying the law make me unrighteous?
I believe the answer is no, here's why.
There is no doubt that sin is defined as breaking God's 10 Commandments.
But we see David saying in Psalm 32, "Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity,"
Then in Psalm 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our
transgressions from us.
Then we have John the Baptist saying in John 1:29," Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh
away the sin of the world."
Also Hebrews 9:26 but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away
sin by the sacrifice of himself.
So thanks to Jesus our sin is not an issue.
In 2 Corinthians 5:17-21 we see that we are New Creations, and He does not impute our sins
to us, and He makes us righteous, even the righteousness of Christ, which is perfect.

Hey Doug....some great posts from you in this thread!Being from below you here in The Buckeye State ,home,of course of the Mighty Ohio State Buckeyes Iam not sure it is proper to converse with somebody from “that state up north.I have to question the salvation of anybody from that state!Just kidding of course.....
Obedience to the law did not make me righteous.....disobedience to the law does not make me unrighteous .I had the same experience that Abraham had —I believed a promise of God and he declared me righteous. I was a bankrupt sinner and I still am....to think otherwise shows I still dwell in a ffol Sorry,I can’t correct typing errors. .". Still live in a fools paradise.The same h. Holy Spirit that gave me the the Ability to see my wretchedness also indeells me and slowly transforms me into the image of Christ.As Paul said “the righteous shall “live” by faith..".from faith to faith.I can already hear the “ Jesus saves BUT” crowd——”head for the hills,Ma Barker,this guy is gonna go out and sin up a storm!!! “ NG....I am saved by faith plus nothing....sin will not damn me....funny thing—-the day I discovered sin did not damn me was the very day I discovered that sin sickened me! Who What kind of idiot wants “a liscence. Oops. “a license to sin”? God gave the commandments out of love...when I violate the m. I hurt myself and God may chasize me to get me back on course....This is what the legalists fail to see.I am so grateful for what God has done,Son grateful So great full the burden of trying to be “good enough” is gone, I obey out of love

 

[Devin P]

Then you disagree that faith without works is dead?

You'll find what you disagree with in the following scripture where they try to explain what faith really means, as in faith in all God and Christ are about, and that they specifically tell us to do. Faith is NOT simply "saying/thinking" I believe/have faith.

If we want an easy unreal/unbiblical way where we can fool ourselves into being allowed to do as we wish and still say we are fine. We can define faith as something that we only need to say/claim and not prove we have, as in "I have faith God will save us just because we claimed we had faith, and believed". That's one definition. The goats in the Sheep and Goats parable claimed they had faith, but we see what it got them

The following describes the other definition, the biblical one and how people manage to ignore what is clearly written here is beyond me.

James 2:14-26King James Version (KJV)
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?"

Read on if you like, lots of good stuff here, that some of you choose to ignore...flat out.

I agree that faith without works is dead. Brother I get that 95% of people angrily oppose us, but read my post. Don't be so quick to judge me, I even directly stated that faith without works is dead. Agreeing with that fact.

 

[disciple1]

Yes and you were taught how to drive in a way that kept you inside the 613 laws, so while you donot know them all you obey them.

The 10 are like your defencive driving a way of staying in the zone of good behaviour/safe driving.

The problem with saying, 'do you have love for others' is that love becomes the reason for actting and also the excuse for sin. ' but I love him/her' is the cry of the adulter.

I agree we must act because we love Jesus and show love to others but our love has to be within the confinds of the 10C.

'do you have love for others' is that love becomes the reason for actting and also the excuse for sin. ' but I love him/her' is the cry of the adulter.

I don't think you know what love is, I hope you don't have children, or that you don't love them.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Remember It is our Father who justifies, not our works of the law. He gives us His righteousness. It is not ours. He saves, He justifies, He glorifies,, and He keeps, Hallelujah!. That is the good news! And He does not lose. To Him be the glory forever, and ever amen!

 

[Doug Melven]

Although it is widely believed, I do not think we are imputed with Christ's righteousness.

The statement that “we become the righteousness of God” (from 2 Corinthian 5:21) is, in and of itself, ambiguous as to intended meaning. It could refer to the imputation of God’s righteousness to the believer. Alternately, it could denote us as the agents who implement God’s righteousness. The material preceding verse 21 strongly favours the latter view:

And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us.


The central idea here is that of the covenant ambassador who represents the one for whom he speaks in such a full and thorough way that he actually becomes the living embodiment of his King. No less than three times does Paul make it clear that the issue on the table is our commissioning from God to be the agents who work out his plan.

So when Paul says "we might become the righteousness of God", he has not changed topics. He is still referring to this commission and is stating that by being given this commission, we become the agents who "carry out" the righteousness of God.

There are other reasons to be suspicious of the doctrine of imputed righteousness.

If we have not been made righteous we have no access to God.
1 Cor 1:30 Jesus is our wisdom unto righteousness, sanctification and redemption.
He is our righteousness and He lives in us. If we were not made righteous, He could not live in us.
1 Cor 6:12 He that is joined to the LORD is one spirit.
It is our spirit that has been made righteous, not our souls or bodies.
Our soul (mind, will and emotions) are being sanctified, a work in progress.
Our bodies will be redeemed when Jesus come back for us and gives us new bodies.

Ephesians 1:7 We have been made accepted in the Beloved. When God looks at us, He sees us in Christ,

And if your doctrine was correct, you could not be justified, because you would have to depend on your own ability to do the law which will justify no one.