Sabbath and Law-Keepers - Gracious convo please!

[Dkh587]

Commanded to who?

All of God's children

 

[FreeAtLast]

Four sets of laws were given to Moses by the Lord on the Mount.

Royal Law, GOD wrote with hisown finger
Civil Law
Dietary Law
Ceremonial law that pointed forward to Christ the Messiah and Redeemer.

Can you pleae show me what Scriptures say that there are 4 sets of Law given to Moses?

Hope this helps
Your brother in Christ
OHC

THANK YOU! Yes, it helps a lot. I'm trying to understand why y'all believe as you do.

 

[FreeAtLast]

It doesn't say the Sabbath is for going to church.

The Sabbath is a day of resting from labors and pleasures, just as God rested from his works and pleasures after creating the heavens & the earth.

My point is that if someone is in a church on Sunday, then there is a very high probability that they do not keep the 7th day set-apart, or holy, as commanded by God for his people(which includes Christians)

Now, I realize there is a very small minority of people in the churches that keep the Sabbath, but the majority don't.

Yes, that is a possibility, but how can one make a entire doctrine based on assumptions of what others will do? And are we to judge what another Believer does between them and G-d?

What was told to me, by an SDA was that going to church on Sunday was breaking G-d commands and thus sin and all sinners (those who go to church or Sunday) would not enter Heaven, and I could not get him to prove it by Scripture. I've had other Sabbath Keepers say to go to church on Sunday was honoring satan because the say is pagan, etc.

So, you's saying that it's not SUNDAY that is the problem? I can go to church on Sunday. (We're not talking about what is done on Saturday yet, just what is done on Sunday.)

 

[Dkh587]

Yes, that is a possibility, but how can one make a entire doctrine based on assumptions of what others will do? And are we to judge what another Believer does between them and G-d?

What was told to me, by an SDA was that going to church on Sunday was breaking G-d commands and thus sin and all sinners (those who go to church or Sunday) would not enter Heaven, and I could not get him to prove it by Scripture. I've had other Sabbath Keepers say to go to church on Sunday was honoring satan because the say is pagan, etc.

So, you's saying that it's not SUNDAY that is the problem? I can go to church on Sunday. (We're not talking about what is done on Saturday yet, just what is done on Sunday.)

It's okay for us to judge other believers righteously. Paul writes about this.

In and of itself, going to a building called a church on a day called Sunday is not listed as a sin in the scriptures.

However, upon further inspection, we see that those going to buildings called churches in Sunday generally reject the 7th day of rest(Sabbath).

If we go only with the scriptures, going to a building called a church on Sunday mornings is not even biblical. The Messiah, the Apostles(including Paul) and disciples/first century believers were Sabbath keepers.

So to sum it up, Sunday in and of itself is not a problem, but the problem is that people going to church on Sunday are usually in disobedience to the 4th command.

 

[FreeAtLast]

It's okay for us to judge other believers righteously. Paul writes about this.

In and of itself, going to a building called a church on a day called Sunday is not listed as a sin in the scriptures.

However, upon further inspection, we see that those going to buildings called churches in Sunday generally reject the 7th day of rest(Sabbath).

If we go only with the scriptures, going to a building called a church on Sunday mornings is not even biblical. The Messiah, the Apostles(including Paul) and disciples/first century believers were Sabbath keepers.

So to sum it up, Sunday in and of itself is not a problem, but the problem is that people going to church on Sunday are usually in disobedience to the 4th command.

Thank you, I can appreciate and understand this. Thank you for clarifying. It seems those who said these things were mistaken regarding Sunday.

Now on to the 2nd part, if someone is going to church on Sunday AND rejecting the theory that born again Believers in Yeshua are required to observe the 7th day Sabbath because they believe that the OLD Covenant Law of Moses (which contained the 10 commandments) was fulfilled and completed by Yeshua and since He never reiterated the Sabbath in the NEW Covenant but He did the other 9, they may believe, going by the Scriptures, that this is not a sin.

 

[Bob S]

All of God's children

where?

 

[Kenny'sID]

You asked for sabbath/law keepers advice. I keep the commandments the best I can (I'm not an absolute keeper) which include the commandment in your subject...hope that qualifies.

So how does worshiping on the 1st day of the week violate G-d's commandments and thus be sin is my question and I'm looking for Scripture to back up that claim.

However, I'm responding to those Sabbath-keepers who have been arguing that if we attend a worship service on Sunday, we are breaking G-d's commands,

That is the base problem with your question/concern, unless you can show us where anyone said it is sin to worship on Sunday or any day aside from the 7th day, or real sabbath, there is no question to answer here.

Worship on Sunday all day long if you like, then remember the Sabbath and to keep it holy..

If, and I do say if, there is a damnable sin there it is not worshiping on Sunday, it is not keeping the the Sabbath day holy/resting. Hope that clears things up.

 

[Bob S]

Kenny, where in the new covenant does it tell us it is a sin not to worship on Saturday?

 

[Kenny'sID]

The Sabbath is not about a day of the week. It is about Christ.
Christ is our Sabbath. Col 2:17 says that the Sabbath day was a shadow, but the substance is Christ.
So don't rest in your ability to keep the law, it is impossible, rest in Christ.
Hebrews 3 and 4 bring this out very clearly.
The promised land was a picture of God's rest that the unbelieving Israelites could not enter.
In Hebrews 4:3-4 God makes the promised land and the Sabbath the same.
Jesus said in Matt 11:28-30 that He would give us rest.
So, In order for a Christian to keep the Sabbath, which he should do, he should rest in Christ and His finished work.

Six days shalt thy labor and on the 7th rest. So I would say God would disagree with you..it's actually a commandment. It's about resting and the 7th day is the day were are commanded to do it.

IOW it doesn't read:

"6 days shalt thy labor and on the 7th we should rest, or should we? Let's try this... Christ is your Sabbath so strike that and....oh, I don't know...I'm so confused now."

The master of confusion did not write the commandment. As I understand it , it was written by God's very hand who is not confused at all, he's clear, concise, and meant all ten of what he commanded.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Kenny, where in the new covenant does it tell us it is a sin not to worship on Saturday?

If by worship you mean keep the Sabbath day holy and honor God on that day, and that being a commandment and if you understand breaking the commandments as sin as I do, then right there.

Now show me where the new covenant says we don't have to keep the commandments.

If you cannot do that, then you will understand why essentially, there was no call for the New Covenant to bring it up, so it does not/will not, but not for the reason you would like us to think.

And BTW at what place in the Bible does the New Covenant tell us anything? Or show it's distinct rules?

Anyone recall what I said about the master of confusion?...watch out for things that seem confusing/tricky right off the bat/are designed to confuse, and don't let them sway or confuse you. They are very easy to spot.

 

[FreeAtLast]

That is the base problem with your question/concern, unless you can show us where anyone said it is sin to worship on Sunday or any day aside from the 7th day, or real sabbath, there is no question to answer here.

Please refer to the OP where I said:

I've been discussing with an SDA who states that Sunday worship of G-d is man-made tradition, breaking G-d's commandments and is a sin.

Did I say where I was discussing it?

There is no problem with my question since I am relating what was said to me, and thus I have the right to ask this question. There is no requirement to show exactly where it was said. In fact, might have been said to me in person, do you require audio tapes of the conversation? Seriously, you don't get to say someone's question is a non-question.

You are free not to answer, but honestly, you are not free to say my question is not valid, you are not qualified to determine that. I gave the information in the OP and subsequent posts. If you choose not to answer, that's fine or if this doesn't apply to you, have a nice day. Shalom.

 

[klutedavid]

Most people who go to church on Sunday break the 4th commandment because they reject the 7th day Sabbath of God

Sunday worship, or going to church on sundays, are not listed as sins, however, those in the churches don't keep the 7th day set-apart. It goes hand in hand.

If you're in a church on Sunday, then you more than likely do not keep the 7th day set-apart, as commanded by God

Hello Dkh587.

When I read the New Testament, I see a distinct difference between what Jews have been commanded to do (O.T), and what Gentiles are commanded to do in the New Testament.

I will provide a simple example from the scripture.

Jews have the law.

Exodus 20:14
You shall not commit adultery.

Gentiles never had that law and are commanded to obey the following.

Acts 15
19 Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.

Everyone should notice this clear distinction, the Jew is under the law of Exodus (adultery), whereas the Gentile is not. So a Gentile abstains from fornication, because a Gentile is not under that law to not commit adultery.

A Jew is required by the law to be circumcised, a Gentile is not required to be circumcised by that same law.

A Jew is required by law to obey the Sabbath, a Gentile was never commanded to obey a Sabbath law.

Gentiles are not under the written law and never will be under that law!

Romans 2
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves...

This is very clear in the New Testament.

 

[klutedavid]

Hello Kenny.

I disagree with what you wrote.

If by worship you mean keep the Sabbath day holy and honor God on that day, and that being a commandment and if you understand breaking the commandments as sin as I do, then right there.

Gentiles were never under the law.

Romans 2
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves...

Paul said the Gentiles do not have the law.

Now show me where the new covenant says we don't have to keep the commandments.

Here is the proof that Gentiles are not under the ten commandments.

Acts 15
19 Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.

If the Gentiles were under the ten commandments, then the apostles would have provided the simple list of commandments.

If you cannot do that, then you will understand why essentially, there was no call for the New Covenant to bring it up, so it does not/will not, but not for the reason you would like us to think.

I did what you asked for.

And BTW at what place in the Bible does the New Covenant tell us anything? Or show it's distinct rules?

The New Covenant has commands not contained in the Old Covenant law.

Anyone recall what I said about the master of confusion?...watch out for things that seem confusing/tricky right off the bat/are designed to confuse, and don't let them sway or confuse you. They are very easy to spot.

You are not reading the scripture in context, you think you are a Jew.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Shabbat Shalom y'all!

I'm STILL looking, hoping for some mature, gracious discussion with Sabbath Keepers and SDAs about why they think Sunday worship is a sin.

I DID ask this:

So, instead, I'm asking all you Sabbath and Law-keepers to help me out here with some GRACIOUS discussion on this topic. Please don't copy/ paste SDA websites and flood a bunch of lists of Scriptures. I'm seeking REAL discussion, in a gracious manner, if you're up for it!

I want to understand, by Scripture, why you believe as you do. So, if you want to discuss, NOT ARGUE, a point at a time, jump in!

Yes, I understand that in some time zones in the world it is the Sabbath and y'all may not be on the computer, but I'll be here at sundown on Saturday night when you come back.

I am not sure why you want to make arguments that are not there. It was clearly told you in the other thread in post # 214, that we should worship God everyday. It is not about worshiping God on Sunday that is wrong it is about breaking the 4th commandment and replacing it with something that is not biblical that is breaking God's commandments (Matthew 15:3-9)

As discussed earlier with you according to Matthew 15:3-9 if we substitute man made teachings and traditions that break God's commandments in place of God's Word we are not following God.

Sunday worship is a tradition of man that replaces God's 4th commandment that leads people to break the commandments of God (Exodus 20:8-11). Many today forsake the 4th commandment to honor the 1st day of the week. Who should we follow the believe and follow the teachings and traditions of man or the Word of God?.

Now please show me in God's Word where it says that the 4th commandment is ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day? If you cannot then why follow a man made tradition over the Word of God?

I am also just wondering why you do not like people posting scripture for what they believe?

We should follow the Word of God over the teachings and traditions of man because it is written; Let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou might be justified in thy sayings, and might overcome when thou art judged.

 

[Bob S]

If by worship you mean keep the Sabbath day holy and honor God on that day, and that being a commandment and if you understand breaking the commandments as sin as I do, then right there.

Now show me where the new covenant says we don't have to keep the commandments.

If you cannot do that, then you will understand why essentially, there was no call for the New Covenant to bring it up, so it does not/will not, but not for the reason you would like us to think.

And BTW at what place in the Bible does the New Covenant tell us anything? Or show it's distinct rules?

Anyone recall what I said about the master of confusion?...watch out for things that seem confusing/tricky right off the bat/are designed to confuse, and don't let them sway or confuse you. They are very easy to spot.

Ditto my friend.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Subject 10 commandments verses the Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit now glorious, 10 commandments done a way. Paul wrote it I didn't. Take it or leave it.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Ditto my friend.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Subject 10 commandments verses the Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit now glorious, 10 commandments done a way. Paul wrote it I didn't. Take it or leave it.

Hi Bob, that is not saying God's commandments are not required at all. How do you know what sin is without God's Law (James 2:11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)?

Let’s look at the rest of the chapter?

v6, Who also hath made us able ministers of the New Testament (Covenant); not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills, but the spirit giveth life.
v7, But if the ministration of death, written and graven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away.
v8, How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
v9, For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
v10, For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
v11, For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
v12, Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
v13, And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
v14, But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
v15, But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16, Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17, Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Lets’ put it all together….

v6-7 What is the ministration of death graven in stone? It is God’s Law (10 commandments; Exodus 20:1-17; 31:18; 32:16). Why were they called the ministration of death? Because God’s Law (10 commandments) give the knowledge of sin and righteousness but makes nothing perfect (James 2:11; 1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20; 7:7; Hebrews 7:19 ). God’s Law only shows what sin is and if broken, the penalty for sin is death (Romans 6:23). v8-10 It was to teach us that we are all sinners in need of a saviour and that all the world may become guilty before God (Romans 3:10; 19; Isaiah 64:6). It leads us to Christ that we might be justified by faith (Galatians 3:24; Romans 3:28). v10-17 The glory of the one passes to the glory of the other (Law to Christ). They both work together to bring the sinner to salvation. It is the glory of the one (God’s Law) that supersedes the Glory of the other because God’s Law leads the sinner to the Saviour (Galatian 3:24-25). The glory has been done away not God’s Law. God’s Law is perfect and is forever but makes nothing perfect it is the knowledge of good and evil; sin and righteousness (Ecclesiastes 3:14) but makes nothing perfect. Faith that works by love through walking in the Spirit is the new ministration when someone is born again.

This is the difference between the true Gospel and the counterfeit. The counterfeit Gospel is one that tries to separate God’s Law from the cross but without God’s Law no one has the knowledge of good and evil; sin and righteousness (James 2:11; 1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20; 7:7; Hebrews 7:19).

God's Word tells us that the 10 commandments are forever................

The Law of God (10 commandments) is the work of God (Exodus 32:16) whatsoever God does is forever nothing can be added to it or taken away (Ecclesiastes 3:14). God's Law is perfect converting the soul (Psalms 19:7). It is the very foundation of the Old and New Covenants (Exodus 20:1:17, Hebrews 8:10-12). God's Law was spoken by God himself to His people (Exodus 20:1-22). Jesus says Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away (Matthew 25:35). Gods Law is still in force today (Psalms 111:7-8, Revelation 12:17, 14:12, 22:14, 1 John 3:5-8, 1 John 2:3-4 etc.). The Law of God reveals sin to us so we can see ourselves as we truly are sinners in need of a Saviour (Romans 3:20; 1 John 3:4). It is the great standard of the judgement (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14, James 2:10-12, 1 John 3:4, Acts 17:31). God's Law is our teacher revealing sin and the character of God and brings us to Christ at the foot of the cross that we might be saved by faith by Him who loves us and washed us in His own blood (Galatians 3:24; Revelation 1:5). God writes His Law in our hearts so that we become like him and we follow him because we love him (Heb 8:10-12) LOVE is the fulfilling (doing) of God's Law (Romans 13:10). This is why Jesus says to those that love him If you love me keep my commandments (John 14:15).

This includes the 4th commandment; the 7th day Sabbath that God commands all to keep as a holy day (Exodus 20:8-11) and is one of the 10.

May God bless you as you seek Him through His Word.....

 

[bekkilyn]

I still find it rather curious that Jesus never mentioned observing the Sabbath even once in his Sermon on the Mount. If keeping the Sabbath is required for salvation, especially for Gentiles who had never previously observed a Sabbath and wouldn't know anything about it, one would think it would be all over Jesus's teachings in order to ensure that as many people were saved as possible. If observing the Sabbath was mandatory for salvation, one might think the apostles would also be heavily emphasizing it all over their epistles and other writings in order to make sure there is full and complete understanding of what everyone needs to do for salvation.

But alas, they do not. Curious and curiouser.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I still find it rather curious that Jesus never mentioned observing the Sabbath even once in his Sermon on the Mount. If keeping the Sabbath is required for salvation, especially for Gentiles who had never previously observed a Sabbath and wouldn't know anything about it, one would think it would be all over Jesus's teachings in order to ensure that as many people were saved as possible. If observing the Sabbath was mandatory for salvation, one might think the apostles would also be heavily emphasizing it all over their epistles and other writings in order to make sure there is full and complete understanding of what everyone needs to do for salvation.
But alas, they do not. Curious and curiouser.

He mentioned all of them in Matthew 5:17-19

 

[FreeAtLast]

I still find it rather curious that Jesus never mentioned observing the Sabbath even once in his Sermon on the Mount. If keeping the Sabbath is required for salvation, especially for Gentiles who had never previously observed a Sabbath and wouldn't know anything about it, one would think it would be all over Jesus's teachings in order to ensure that as many people were saved as possible. If observing the Sabbath was mandatory for salvation, one might think the apostles would also be heavily emphasizing it all over their epistles and other writings in order to make sure there is full and complete understanding of what everyone needs to do for salvation.

But alas, they do not. Curious and curiouser.

Spot on! Thank you!

 

[LoveGodsWord]

If observing the Sabbath was mandatory for salvation, one might think the apostles would also be heavily emphasizing it all over their epistles and other writings in order to make sure there is full and complete understanding of what everyone needs to do for salvation.

It is quite clear all through God's Word that sin will keep you out of God's Kingdom. Breaking God's Law is sin (James 2:11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20). Jesus and the Apostles obeyed God's Sabbath and they are our examples and taught it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. All the scriptures from the NT come from the OT. All scripture we are to live by not just some of it.