The sign of the Cross/ Spiritual Weapon or attention getter?

[bbbbbbb]

We are sinners and we need Christ's mercy and we cling to the cross, how about that?!
Just because we trust Christ with our soul doesn't mean our alcoholism or other faults go away over night.

I think you may have read more into the actions of your Catholic neighbours. Even if they were proud of their faith why is that something wrong?

Romans 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel. It is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: for Jew first, and then Greek. 17 For in it is revealed the righteousness of God from faith to faith; as it is written, “The one who is righteous by faith will live.”

They were mostly annoying. I rather think of a similar situation in Boston at the Church of the Advent. As part of its Anglican tradition it occasionally engages in bell-ringing. We are not talking about ringing a few notes on the hour, but a marathon session in which a peal of bells is rung in every possible set of rhythmic variations. This goes on non-stop day and night until the entire progression is completed. Needless to say, the neighbors find it annoying, so much so that the church was required to fill in the openings in its belfry with concrete to muffle the sound.

 

[HisBody]

They were mostly annoying. I rather think of a similar situation in Boston at the Church of the Advent. As part of its Anglican tradition it occasionally engages in bell-ringing. We are not talking about ringing a few notes on the hour, but a marathon session in which a peal of bells is rung in every possible set of rhythmic variations. This goes on non-stop day and night until the entire progression is completed. Needless to say, the neighbors find it annoying, so much so that the church was required to fill in the openings in its belfry with concrete to muffle the sound.

And this is pertinent to the topic of the thread,because . . . ?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Soooo, when you find yourself completely incapable of debating Catholic theology - you attack Catholics in general - is that it?

What cowardice . . .

I merely provided some more gist for your attacks and set myself up as your personal lightning rod. I think you should thank me for allowing you to vent your rage against me rather than others.

By, while you are on the topic of Catholic theology, would you like to open a thread where we can discuss it?

 

[HisBody]

I merely provided some more gist for your attacks and set myself up as your personal lightning rod. I think you should thank me for allowing you to vent your rage against me rather than others.

By, while you are on the topic of Catholic theology, would you like to open a thread where we can discuss it?

Be my guest.
I don't usually start threads. I only respond to questions about the Catholic faith - or myths and falsehoods about the Church.

Unfortunately, the latter keeps me pretty busy . . .

 

[bbbbbbb]

Be my guest.
I don't usually start threads. I only respond to questions about the Catholic faith - or myths and falsehoods about the Church.

Unfortunately, the latter keeps me pretty busy . . .

I know. I know. It's a tough job, but somebody has to do it.

 

[Mary of Bethany]

They were mostly annoying. I rather think of a similar situation in Boston at the Church of the Advent. As part of its Anglican tradition it occasionally engages in bell-ringing. We are not talking about ringing a few notes on the hour, but a marathon session in which a peal of bells is rung in every possible set of rhythmic variations. This goes on non-stop day and night until the entire progression is completed. Needless to say, the neighbors find it annoying, so much so that the church was required to fill in the openings in its belfry with concrete to muffle the sound.

Ah, the great English tradition of Change Ringing. I don't think it happens much anymore, even in English villages.

 

[HisBody]

I know. I know. It's a tough job, but somebody has to do it.

I would be more than happy to answer any questions you might have, should you start a thread.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Ah, the great English tradition of Change Ringing. I don't think it happens much anymore, even in English villages.

Yes, it is a dying tradition.

 

[seeking.IAM]

...This goes on non-stop day and night until the entire progression is completed. Needless to say, the neighbors find it annoying...

It's sort of like buying a house next to a pig farm and then complaining you don't like the stink.

 

[Fidelibus]

As a child growing up in a Catholic city, there were all forms of visible Catholicism. It seemed that the Catholic folks enjoyed letting everyone else know how pious they were.

Very interesting statement 7-b. Back on the last part of my OP, I stated:

"Even Martin Luther urged his followers to use the sign. In his Catechism of 1529 he instructed fathers to teach their households the following: "In the morning, when you rise from bed, sign yourself with the holy cross and say, 'In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen.'...At night, when you go to bed, sign yourself with the holy cross and say, 'In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen.'"

So when did this change in Protestantism, and who was it that frowned against most Protestants from doing it? "

Care to give your thoughts on who and when?

 

[bbbbbbb]

It's sort of like buying a house next to a pig farm and then complaining you don't like the stink.

That would be true, except in this particular case, the pig farmer moved in after we were living in the house. I do find your analogy curious and rather offensive. I would not compare Catholics to pig farmers.

 

[seeking.IAM]

... I do find your analogy curious and rather offensive. I would not compare Catholics to pig farmers.

Nor would I. Nor did I. I think you got the point. Please don't try to make it into more than it was.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Very interesting statement 7-b. Back on the last part of my OP, I stated:

"Even Martin Luther urged his followers to use the sign. In his Catechism of 1529 he instructed fathers to teach their households the following: "In the morning, when you rise from bed, sign yourself with the holy cross and say, 'In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen.'...At night, when you go to bed, sign yourself with the holy cross and say, 'In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen.'"

So when did this change in Protestantism, and who was it that frowned against most Protestants from doing it? "

Care to give your thoughts on who and when?

Probably at the same time, by the same individuals, who understood these matters to be pious opinions and not binding dogmas. Protestants in general are relatively gracious with each other regarding pious opinions. After all, if a Christian chooses to observe Saturday rather than Sunday as the Lord's Day we only become concerned if they make it a salvific matter as do the Seventh Day Adventists.

Regarding the sign of the cross, I myself once found myself using it rather frequently. I had a friend who had a telephone number of which the last four digits were 4628, so on a digital telephone one makes the sign of the cross with those numbers. We mentioned it to each other once and enjoyed the coincidence.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Nor would I.

I am glad to know that. I found it difficult to imagine that your analogy was intentional.

 

[Fidelibus]

Probably at the same time, by the same individuals, who understood these matters to be pious opinions and not binding dogmas.

So, how long after Luther were Protestants discouraged from making the sign of the Cross? A hundred, two hundred, four hundred years after? And who were these individuals you speak of? Name/names? I've tried to find who and when in Protestant history this took place, but it seems, with no real authority among all the different Protestant sects, nobody seemed to have recorded it. Why do you think that is? As history shows, The Catholic Church recorded just about everything. Again, why didn't Protestantism? It seem's to me, that would have been a very significant part of Protestant history to record.
.

Regarding the sign of the cross, I myself once found myself using it rather frequently. I had a friend who had a telephone number of which the last four digits were 4628, so on a digital telephone one makes the sign of the cross with those numbers. We mentioned it to each other once and enjoyed the coincidence.

So I'm guessing that you have not or will not make the sign of the cross upon yourself? Are you not a follower of Martin Luther's teachings? If so, what authority is/was there in Protestantism that informs/informed Protestants which of his teachings are to be followed like Sola Scriptua, Sola fide, ect, but his teachings and beliefs in making the sign of the Cross, the veneration of Mary, Mary's Perpetual Virginity, ect. are not to be followed?

 

[bbbbbbb]

So, how long after Luther were Protestants discouraged from making the sign of the Cross? A hundred, two hundred, four hundred years after? And who were these individuals you speak of? Name/names? I've tried to find who and when in Protestant history this took place, but it seems, with no real authority among all the different Protestant sects, nobody seemed to have recorded it. Why do you think that is? As history shows, The Catholic Church recorded just about everything. Again, why didn't Protestantism? It seem's to me, that would have been a very significant part of Protestant history to record.

So I'm guessing that you have not or will not make the sign of the cross upon yourself? Are you not a follower of Martin Luther's teachings? If so, what authority is/was there in Protestantism that informs/informed Protestants which of his teachings are to be followed like Sola Scriptua, Sola fide, ect, but his teachings and beliefs in making the sign of the Cross, the veneration of Mary, Mary's Perpetual Virginity, ect. are not to be followed?

I am not now, nor ever have been, a Lutheran. If you wish to take this up with Lutherans I recommend that you do so, because I am not one. You are barking up this wrong tree here.

In my personal experience I was never forbidden nor discouraged from making the sign of the cross in any form. I simply see no particular need or reason to do so, although I respect the pious opinions of those who do.

In a similar way I respect those who see no particular reason to read the Bible on their own. That is their pious opinion and they seem to practice their faith to their personal satisfaction without personal knowledge gained from reading the Bible.

I can, however, easily point to teachings of various denominations, including your own, which have expressly forbidden Bible-reading, but that, as they say, is the topic for another thread, not this one.

 

[Mary of Bethany]

7b - I was raised in Southern Baptist churches (left in 1991 because I had come to believe in the reality of Sacraments). I was thinking about this thread yesterday, and it seems to me that many Evangelicals resist any sort of connection between body & spirit - a sort of gnosticism (in a very broad sense). I can see that would lead to a denial of Sacraments also - that only the heart matters and whatever motions we go through bodily can have no bearing on the spiritual.

What are your thoughts on that?

 

[Fidelibus]

I am not now, nor ever have been, a Lutheran. If you wish to take this up with Lutherans I recommend that you do so, because I am not one. You are barking up this wrong tree here.

First off 7-b, my post was not directed towards Lutherans alone, for many Lutherans/ Anglicans do make the sign of the Cross, it was directed towards Protestantism as a whole, and that includes non-denoms such as yourself. (yes, non-denomination sects are Protestants) As a "None", do you adhere to teachings of Martin Luther like, Sola Scriptura, Sola fide, Sola gratia, ect.? If you do, then my questions to you as a member of a non-denominational sect applies.

So once again, by what authority is/was there in Protestantism that informs/informed Protestants which of his teachings are to be followed like Sola Scriptua, Sola fide, ect, but his teachings and beliefs in making the sign of the Cross, the veneration of Mary, Mary's Perpetual Virginity, ect. are not to be followed?

Maybe I should just limit it to your non-Denominational sects.

By whose or what authority (names ?) in the non-denominational sects decides what teachings of the Reformers like Sola Scriptua, Sola fide, ect. are to be followed, and others like making the sign of the Cross, the veneration of Mary, Mary's Perpetual Virginity, ect. are not to be followed, and when did this take place? (dates?) Also 7-b,being a "None", could you tell me how many non-denom. sects there are in say....... the U.S. (approx)

I can, however, easily point to teachings of various denominations, including your own, which have expressly forbidden Bible-reading, but that, as they say, is the topic for another thread, not this one.

By all means, start a thread, because as far as The Catholic Church forbidding Bible-reading? That is just another anti-Catholic lie, and can be easily refuted. I'll keep an eye out for it.

Thank You

 

[bbbbbbb]

7b - I was raised in Southern Baptist churches (left in 1991 because I had come to believe in the reality of Sacraments). I was thinking about this thread yesterday, and it seems to me that many Evangelicals resist any sort of connection between body & spirit - a sort of gnosticism (in a very broad sense). I can see that would lead to a denial of Sacraments also - that only the heart matters and whatever motions we go through bodily can have no bearing on the spiritual.

What are your thoughts on that?

The relationship between body and spirit has a long and difficult history. Volumes have been written concerning it, especially concerning the lives of hermits, monks, and other religious individuals. There is no doubt that some Protestants, especially the Pietists, borrowed many ideas and shaped their worldview much in the image of their monastic forbears. In every Christian tradition one can find those at either end of the body/spirit spectrum.

 

[bbbbbbb]

First off 7-b, my post was not directed towards Lutherans alone, for many Lutherans/ Anglicans do make the sign of the Cross, it was directed towards Protestantism as a whole, and that includes non-denoms such as yourself. (yes, non-denomination sects are Protestants) As a "None", do you adhere to teachings of Martin Luther like, Sola Scriptura, Sola fide, Sola gratia, ect.? If you do, then my questions to you as a member of a non-denominational sect applies.

So once again, by what authority is/was there in Protestantism that informs/informed Protestants which of his teachings are to be followed like Sola Scriptua, Sola fide, ect, but his teachings and beliefs in making the sign of the Cross, the veneration of Mary, Mary's Perpetual Virginity, ect. are not to be followed?

Maybe I should just limit it to your non-Denominational sects.

By whose or what authority (names ?) in the non-denominational sects decides what teachings of the Reformers like Sola Scriptua, Sola fide, ect. are to be followed, and others like making the sign of the Cross, the veneration of Mary, Mary's Perpetual Virginity, ect. are not to be followed, and when did this take place? (dates?) Also 7-b,being a "None", could you tell me how many non-denom. sects there are in say....... the U.S. (approx)



By all means, start a thread, because as far as The Catholic Church forbidding Bible-reading? That is just another anti-Catholic lie, and can be easily refuted. I'll keep an eye out for it.

Thank You

My Lutheran friends would be amazed if I were to subscribe to the Book of Concord. To be certain, we have much in common, but I also have much in common with my Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox friends and that does not make me Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, does it?