Did Paul consider himself a "sinner", are we supposed to think of ourselves as sinners...?

[ToBeLoved]

First of all, the OT is a schoolmaster. All scripture is given for instruction in righteousness, etc. I know I refer to it on how God views remarriage after divorce, but not about other things fulfilled in the New Testament, like the Sabbath and clean vs. unclean meats.

The difference that I can see between how you and I believe has to do with sin.

For me once I came to Christ and truly repented, all sins I did previous to that moment were cleansed, and Jesus gave me the Holy Spirit to walk in. He also made me dead to sin.

You believe your past, present and future sins are forgiven, so if you commit a sin, you won't experience the consequences.

We both believe a whole lot more, but isn't that about it in a nutshell?

You mean, you think you are as righteous as Christ after you were saved and I know I am not.

The other thing is to know or discover what things changed from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant. It takes a lot of study to know the Bible well enough to divide it.

Everyone and their brother can pull a verse to justify a position. But that doesn’t mean it’s in the correct context or even relevant.

I asked for your position on your Leviticus example but you haven’t said anything yet.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Why don’t you look for the verse that says if you lust in your heart it is adultery.

Because that verse is not, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

It was a specific temptation if you are following the conversation

I'm not worried about GOAT.

 

[1stcenturylady]

You mean, you think you are as righteous as Christ after you were saved and I know I am not.

The difference, I meant, was that I believe past sins were forgiven at salvation, then power given to not sin again.

You seem to believe that Jesus forgived our past, present and future sins.

That's a difference in theology, not on how we handle sin.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I'm not worried about GOAT.

I’ll get you the verse. You stuck your nose in the discussion and I asked you for the verse and now you are bowing out.

Fine. let us discuss it then if you won’t do the work. There is a big Bible out there and we can finish without you then.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The difference, I meant, was that I believe past sins were forgiven at salvation, then power given to not sin again.

You seem to believe that Jesus forgived our past, present and future sins.

That's a difference in theology, not on how we handle sin.

Right. You believe and you are wrong.

You have two verses. Cling to them. Don’t try to determine if you are right or wrong. Don’t do the hard work that might change the way you see yourself.

 

[1stcenturylady]

You mean, you think you are as righteous as Christ after you were saved and I know I am not.

The other thing is to know or discover what things changed from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant. It takes a lot of study to know the Bible well enough to divide it.

Everyone and their brother can pull a verse to justify a position. But that doesn’t mean it’s in the correct context or even relevant.

I asked for your position on your Leviticus example but you haven’t said anything yet.

Interesting. I just hit reply when only the first sentence came up, and now there are three more paragraphs. So not sure what I missed before. As for Leviticus, I believe that once God said don't call something unclean that He has cleansed, it is cleansed. That was not only about the Gentiles, but the unclean meat they used to represent.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I’ll get you the verse. You stuck your nose in the discussion and I asked you for the verse and now you are bowing out.

Fine. let us discuss it then if you won’t do the work. There is a big Bible out there and we can finish without you then.

What verse?

 

[ToBeLoved]

The difference, I meant, was that I believe past sins were forgiven at salvation, then power given to not sin again.

You seem to believe that Jesus forgived our past, present and future sins.

That's a difference in theology, not on how we handle sin.

How do you know what I believe? You are the one saying you have no sin.

The Bible says you are delusional.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

So you never imagine anyone undressed or watch an r rated movie of anyone in a compromising situation or porn or look at everyone as anything other than you would look at your sister or mother?

That is the standard.

Since those first few months of being (now it’s been close to 2 years) saved I can say no I haven't at least lusted or mentally undressed a woman. Also you’re doing what you did for sin... adding to the definition... lust isn’t simply acknowledging or in your head saying “that girl is hot” lust involves imagining yourself in sexual acts with another indidivual. I have looked at women and acknowledged she’s hot or attractive or looked at then in a different way then my 5 year old sister or my mother... but that’s just a crazy unbiblical out there standard to equilivate that with lust. It’s natural to be attracted to women as a man or mentally acknowledge you find them attractive. With R rated movies I simply look away from the scenes or at least think about something else. It’s all you can do tbh those scenes are even in pg-13 movies now, now you can also not go to movies at as well but yeah

 

[Ken Rank]

May I ask a question then to clarify willful sin in your eyes?

If I knowingly tell my boss I am sick to get out of work say for the birth of my grandchild because they wouldn’t let me off that is willful sin in your definition? Correct?

Or if someone looks at someone they find attractive but are married and then sneak another look at that person after the first, that is what you are talking about?

Or any person that would say look at porn knowing they would lust after whomever was in the video because they only hire very attractive people, that is willful sin? Correct

Where does it say lying is a sin? I am not saying it is or isn't, I am simply asking where the command is that says it's a sin. "Bearing false witness" is not lying per se, that is a legal term dealing with making a false claim against another.

Let me ask you... you have Jews in your basement and the Nazis come to the door and ask, "do you have Jews here?" If you say no are you lying? Let me fill in a blank... while there stated question was, "do you have Jews here?" isn't the question really, "do you have Jews here I can kill?"

Willful sin (rebellion) is knowing what God expects of you and despite you knowing that, you "deliberately" do something else on purpose. You wanting to see the birth of your grandchild being in conflict with your secular work... is that really in contrast to the character of God? Your choice that is?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Since those first few months of being (now it’s been close to 2 years) saved I can say no I haven't at least lusted or mentally undressed a woman. Also you’re doing what you did for sin... adding to the definition... lust isn’t simply acknowledging or in your head saying “that girl is hot” lust involves imagining yourself in sexual acts with another indidivual. I have looked at women and acknowledged she’s hot or attractive or looked at then in a different way then my 5 year old sister or my mother... but that’s just a crazy unbiblical out there standard to equilivate that with lust. It’s natural to be attracted to women as a man.. With R rated movies I simply look away from the scenes or at least think about something else. It’s all you can do tbh those scenes are even in pg-13 movies now, now you can also not go to movies at as well but yeah

Matthew 5:27-28
27 You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

It's not my standard. I didn't write the Bible.

 

[Ken Rank]

LOL, hope you can rest now about me. But I still think Paul was being misunderstood.

The language is what it is...present tense in Greek. We can't let our bias (and we all have one) dictate the course of Scripture... we have to allow it to say whatever it is saying or we run the risk of re-creating God in whatever image we desire.

Blessings.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Matthew 5:27-28
27 You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

It's not my standard. I didn't write the Bible.

I’m clearly agreeing with you that lust is wrong... stop beating around the bush you know what I’m questioning here. I’m questioning a part of your definition of the word lust. “Look at a woman in a different way then your sister or mother”. I agree that mentally commuting adultery or lust is wrong... I’m clearly questioning your definition not the term itself.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Where does it say lying is a sin? I am not saying it is or isn't, I am simply asking where the command is that says it's a sin. "Bearing false witness" is not lying per se, that is a legal term dealing with making a false claim against another.

Let me ask you... you have Jews in your basement and the Nazis come to the door and ask, "do you have Jews here?" If you say no are you lying? Let me fill in a blank... while there stated question was, "do you have Jews here?" isn't the question really, "do you have Jews here I can kill?"

Willful sin (rebellion) is knowing what God expects of you and despite you knowing that, you "deliberately" do something else on purpose. You wanting to see the birth of your grandchild being in conflict with your secular work... is that really in contrast to the character of God? Your choice that is?

So you are not answering my questions?

You don't have to, but asking me questions after you wouldn't answer mine doesn't seem fair. And my questions were much simplerer than Nazi's coming to the door and asking about Jews.

The point is is do we face these decisions every day, not a hypothetical situation that I would not be in.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I’m clearly agreeing with you that lust is wrong... stop beating around the bush you know what I’m questioning here. I’m questioning a part of your definition of the word lust. “Look at a woman in a different way then your sister or mother”

That was an example. Not the scripture.

And I've been very straight forward and that was written 15 minutes ago so how are you accusing me of beating around any bush, is beyond me. I have been very straightforward.

Can you please explain your Leviticus 15 reference to the Last Supper I asked about pages ago before you come into this conversation? I would really like to understand that one.

I don't appreciate you taking pot shots at me that are unwarranted.

 

[Ken Rank]

So you are not answering my questions?

You don't have to, but asking me questions after you wouldn't answer mine doesn't seem fair. And my questions were much simplerer than Nazi's coming to the door and asking about Jews.

The point is is do we face these decisions every day, not a hypothetical situation that I would not be in.

I was letting you answer your own question but answering it anyway... is there a command that says don't lie? No... so you didn't sin! The hypothetical gives a clear face to the point by the way.... because we know their question really was "that we can kill" even though they didn't ask it that way.

What you did wasn't a sin. Turning your boss into his boss with charges that weren't true in order to have a more sympathetic new boss would have been a sin!

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

That was an example. Not the scripture.

And I've been very straight forward and that was written 15 minutes ago so how are you accusing me of beating around any bush, is beyond me. I have been very straightforward.

Can you please explain your Leviticus 15 reference to the Last Supper I asked about pages ago before you come into this conversation? I would really like to understand that one.

I don't appreciate you taking pot shots at me that are unwarranted.

By quoting a scripture about lust in order to address an argument that clearly wasn’t going against lust itself but your definition of the term makes it seem like you’re trying to avoid defending your definition. Now If that was an example it was a poor one.... looking at a girl as an attractive indidivual (something you wouldn’t look at your mom or sister as) isn’t lust... yet techinuxaly you’re not looking at that girl or woman the same way as your Mom or sister. If I’m wrong about that and you simply misunderstood my argument then my bad and I will check out the last supper you mentioned and post a comment about it in a sec.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I was letting you answer your own question but answering it anyway... is there a command that says don't lie? No... so you didn't sin! The hypothetical gives a clear face to the point by the way.... because we know their question really was "that we can kill" even though they didn't ask it that way.

What you did wasn't a sin. Turning your boss into his boss with charges that weren't true in order to have a more sympathetic new boss would have been a sin!

So, I want to clarify before I respond.

Even though we are told to represent ourselves in truth and light, it is not a sin to not represent myself in truth?

That is your stance? That we can misrepresent situations yet our very lives are a testimony of who we are in Christ?

 

[ToBeLoved]

By quoting a scripture about lust in order to address an argument that clearly wasn’t going against lust itself but your definition of the term makes it seem like you’re trying to avoid defending your definition. Now I’d that was an example it was a poor one... looking at a girl as an attractive indidivual (something you wouldn’t look at your mom or sister as) isn’t lust... yet techinuxaly you’re NT looking at that girl the same way as tournaments Mom or sister. If I’m wrong about that and you simply misunderstood my argument then my bad and I will check out the last supper you mentioned and post a comment about it in a sec.

Please address the scripture.
I gave it to you. Matthew 5. So you tell me how that doesn't mean exactly what I said it meant.

Matthew 5:27-28
27 You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

 

[ToBeLoved]

By quoting a scripture about lust in order to address an argument that clearly wasn’t going against lust itself but your definition of the term makes it seem like you’re trying to avoid defending your definition. Now If that was an example it was a poor one.... looking at a girl as an attractive indidivual (something you wouldn’t look at your mom or sister as) isn’t lust... yet techinuxaly you’re not looking at that girl or woman the same way as your Mom or sister. If I’m wrong about that and you simply misunderstood my argument then my bad and I will check out the last supper you mentioned and post a comment about it in a sec.

What is your definition of lust then. Let's start there.