(Moved) The law. Is it done away with? Is it, really?

[BobRyan]

I stand corrected,

Gentiles would not be grafted INTO Israel, . . .

gentiles would be grafted AMONG ISRAEL.



SPIRITUAL ISRAEL, not the Country in the Middle East called Israel.

Which keep the Commandments of God

and have the Testimony of Christ(leaves out fleshly Jews in middle east does it not?)

Romans 11

 

[klutedavid]

Hello Bob.

No "gentiles" in Romans 2 accounted as Jews-- in your POV??

Rom 2
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

You will need to explain your post in a bit more detail Bob.

Why is circumcision of value if you practice the law (Romans 2:25)?

What is the letter of the law (Romans 2:27)?

You will also need to explain the following verse from the same chapter.

Romans 2
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these not having the Law, are a law to themselves.

So then you do claim to be a Jew? Romans 2

I am a Gentile, I am uncircumcised.

How then do you know that this is not what we also see in Rev 7 - the 144,000???

The verse is printed below.

Revelation 7:4
And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel.

These folk are from the twelve tribes of Israel, this has nothing to do with Gentiles.

but in the examples I give above it is gentiles-by-birth that are being called Jews.

No Bob, the Gentiles are not being called Jews.

Jews are circumcised, Gentiles are not circumcised.

Jews have the letter of the law, Gentiles do not have the law.

Then can you see yourself in those verses above?

You have mangled chapter two of Romans.

It has always been a sin for gentiles to "take God's name in vain" and we both know it.

The Gentiles never knew God so how could they take his name in vain?

Even in the NT - "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

So you can get drunk, be a glutton, gamble, because it's not in the law?

Even in the NT "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

The apostle Paul and John, tell us what commandments we need to obey.

 

[listed]

WHEN will it change?

The covenant has already changed about 2,000 years ago. Luke 24:44 gives the key and allows this. Hebrews 7:12 proves jots and tittles of the law have changed.

Doesn't the verses you quoted say;

one jot or tittle WILL NOT pass away from the law?



17 Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.


Obviously you heard this somewhere in the world.

And I also read the complete Bible and am not spoon feed from the indignant bully pulpit.

Don't believe it!

Don't believe what?

Why in Revelation does the Dragon make war against those that KEEP the 10 commandments?

The dragon does not make war with those you claim keep the ten commandments because there is no ten in the passage you added to. Youe ven quoted it below. i am beginning to believe you are SDA or Church of GOD 7th day.

THE REMNANT ARE the remnant, BECAUSE THEY keep the commandments and have the Testimony of Christ.

And it would appear that those with wisdom can easily spot the players on God's team, and the unwitting players on Satan's team.

Amen to that. I also hear your implication and send it back to you. I admire your zeal. It is obvious the doctrines of a religious organization are being promoted.

Just look for the ones who make war on keeping the 10 Commandments.

No, just look for the ones who refuse to accept the new covenant.

Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with

the remnant of her seed,

which keep the commandments of God,

and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The commandments of God are found in 1 John 3:23.

 

[listed]

I stand corrected,

Gentiles would not be grafted INTO Israel, . . .

gentiles would be grafted AMONG ISRAEL.



SPIRITUAL ISRAEL, not the Country in the Middle East called Israel.

Which keep the Commandments of God

and have the Testimony of Christ(leaves out fleshly Jews in middle east does it not?)

You're still saying the same thing about Christians and Israel only with and added adjective.

 

[Bob S]

The covenant has already changed about 2,000 years ago. Luke 24:44 gives the key and allows this. Hebrews 7:12 proves jots and tittles of the law have changed.And I also read the complete Bible and am not spoon feed from the indignant bully pulpit.Don't believe what?The dragon does not make war with those you claim keep the ten commandments because there is no ten in the passage you added to. Youe ven quoted it below. i am beginning to believe you are SDA or Church of GOD 7th day.Amen to that. I also hear your implication and send it back to you. I admire your zeal. It is obvious the doctrines of a religious organization are being promoted.No, just look for the ones who refuse to accept the new covenant. The commandments of God are found in 1 John 3:23.

[/QUOTE]
Amen my brother.

 

[listed]

EVEN IF the Testimony of Jesus VERIFIES which COMMANDMENTS the Remnant are to keep to inherit ETERNAL LIFE?

Matthew 19
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he(JESUS) said(TESTIFIED) unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which?

Jesus said,
Thou shalt do no murder,
Thou shalt not commit adultery,
Thou shalt not steal,
Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and,
Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Isn't the TESTIMONY OF JESUS to KEEP the 10 Commandments since He NAMED THEM?

Haven't you read John's Gospel? It disagrees with you quoting Jesus.

You confuse the Law of Moses when you think to combined the Law of Moses with the 10 Commandments. They are separate and independent.

No they aren't. You make what you call the Law of Moses out to be his doing and not from God. The evidence as late as Deuteronomy is that Moses spoke the words of God given to him.

And Jesus ONLY SAID

These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you,

that all things must be fulfilled, which were

written in the law of Moses,
(10 Commandments are not mentioned in this verse because THE LAW OF MOSES was a different set of STATUTES WRITTEN by the Hand of Moses)

and in the prophets, concerning me

and in the psalms, concerning me.


IF you wish to dispute the Testimony of Jesus, that is your prerogative.

Haven't you read John's Gospel? It disagrees with you quoting Jesus.

 

[listed]

Actually, if one considers;

The SPIRIT of the 10 Commandments IS TO LOVE.

IF YOU LOVE SOMEONE,

would you;
Kill them?
Steal from them
Lie about them?

Christ just simplified the 10 Commandments general theme

THOU SHALT LOVE!

When my 17 year old virgin stepdaughter was violently raped by 3 young men a month ago, that has been the greatest test for me to love.

But all of life is a test.

But some tests are REALLY TOUGH!

Thank you for your thoughtful comments

Sorry about your step daughter.

I want to know how doing what Jesus said in John13:34 violates or means to follow the ten commandments.

 

[listed]

Hi Bob!

In Scripture, EVERY WORD is used explicitly to impart a certain understanding.

Revelation 22 carries a curse for anyone tampering with the wording of Revelation;

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.




The KJV has proven over time and extensive scrutiny to be a very accurate translation.

When men
who have NO KNOWLEDGE of the truth

think there is NO HARM in changing wording in Scripture

It changes the message.



You do realize, or maybe you don't, that Satan has had 2000 years to corrupt the true message.


If Scripture states the whole(lacking no part) world(human race) is deceived(accepts the invalid as true and valid), that WOULD include every RECOGNIZED Worldly religious denomination, would it not?


For it was not God that caused the entire Christian world to observe Sunday.

That was done by a man(not Jesus)

who claims to be the equal of Jesus.

and it IS documented History.


Not even Stephen King could conjure up such a diabolical story!

No speculation, no theories, no conjecture.

Simply the TESTIMONY of Five witness's

If your interested;
IDENTIFYING Daniel's 4th Beast ("Little Horn") A.K.A. -Revelation 17's Harlot Babylon

It is well documented the unbelieving Jews chased the Christians from the synagogue and Christians worshiped on Sunday long before the RCC came to power.

 

[listed]

No you prove there is. Its your idea. Rom 2 will not support you. Paul is not talking about Israel.

I fully understand your need for there to be some kind of Israel Christians are part of. The OT covenant of Sinai you wish to subject Christians to is never applied to Christians.

bugkiller

Yeah the onus is on him about his statements. He isn't interested in trying to debunk you.

 

[listed]

Jn 13:34 is better and easier than following the law.

bugkiller

Amen!

 

[listed]

And no "gentiles" under the New Covenant in our POV????

No "gentiles" in Romans 2 accounted as Jews-- in your POV??

Rom 2
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.



So then you do claim to be a Jew? Romans 2

A child of the promise ? ... Romans 9

How then do you know that this is not what we also see in Rev 7 - the 144,000???



True - but in the examples I give above it is gentiles-by-birth that are being called Jews.

oh, where? Please point it out by quote.

 

[BobRyan]

Because the 144,000 are Jewish only, the text is not discussing Gentiles.

And no "gentiles" under the New Covenant in our POV????

No "gentiles" in Romans 2 accounted as Jews-- in your POV??

Rom 2
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

There are two different realms spoken of in the scripture, one is the earthly realm, i.e., physical Israel, the other is in the spiritual realm, a spiritual Israel. These two realms have nothing in common, one was a mere shadow realm, a temporary earthly nation of Israel. The other is the true spiritual reality, a spiritual nation, an eternal kingdom in Christ.

So then you do claim to be a Jew? Romans 2

A child of the promise ? ... Romans 9

How then do you know that this is not what we also see in Rev 7 - the 144,000???

Hello Bob.

If you have Jewish parents then you are Jewish by birth.

True - but in the examples I give above it is gentiles-by-birth that are being called Jews.

I am a Gentile by birth

Then can you see yourself in those verses above?

Gentiles were never under the letter of the law,

It has always been a sin for gentiles to "take God's name in vain" and we both know it.

hence, they were not required to obey the law.

nonsense.

Even in the NT - "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

Even in the NT "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

Even in the NT

James 2
"8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty" James 2

The chapter is not about the promise given to Abraham concerning the blessing of all nations. So yes I am a child of the promise given to Abraham but not a Jew.Rom 2 makes no such claim.

bugkiller

Until you read Rom 2 and Rom 9

oh, where? Please point it out by quote.

I quoted the text in that post -- why do we need to have it quoted and then pointed at??

 

[BobRyan]

Hello Bob.

You will need to explain your post in a bit more detail Bob.

Why is circumcision of value if you practice the law (Romans 2:25)?

Neither OT or NT required that gentiles be circumcised to be saved... we both knew that... right?

 

[BobRyan]

What is the letter of the law (Romans 2:27)?

In Rom 2:27 the term means "scripture"... "having the Bible"

But in some other texts it is also used to contrast a mere surface reading of it - vs a true acceptance of the text.

Lets take "do not take God's name in vain" Exodus 20:7 for example.

To live in rebellion against the spirit of the law - and thus to only attempt some outward appearance of conformity to the letter of the law would mean that you still choose to take God's name in vain but try to hide it from others.

We both knew that already - right?

 

[BobRyan]

No Bob, the Gentiles are not being called Jews. .

Until you read the text I keep quoting in Romans 2

No "gentiles" in Romans 2 accounted as Jews-- in your POV??

Rom 2
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

 

[listed]

And no "gentiles" under the New Covenant in our POV????

No "gentiles" in Romans 2 accounted as Jews-- in your POV??

Rom 2
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

I quoted the text in that post -- why do we need to have it quoted and then pointed at??

Yes you quoted a text. I believe you also said the text says something it doesn't. I ask you once again to point the specifics out.

 

[Lee Stuvmen]

You're still saying the same thing about Christians and Israel only with and added adjective.

Lee Stuvmen isn't saying anything,

the only thing that bears any weight or consideration is what SCRIPTURE states.

If you have a problem with what Scripture states, take that up with God, not Lee Stuvmen

 

[Lee Stuvmen]

Haven't you read John's Gospel? It disagrees with you quoting Jesus.No they aren't. You make what you call the Law of Moses out to be his doing and not from God. The evidence as late as Deuteronomy is that Moses spoke the words of God given to him.
Haven't you read John's Gospel? It disagrees with you quoting Jesus.

I have read the gospel, and I quote the TESTIMONY of Jesus.

And No.

What you have taught as truth by a deceived world that does not know truth to teach truth, only makes it appear that the TESTIMONY of Jesus disagrees with what you have been told to believe.

 

[Lee Stuvmen]

Sorry about your step daughter.

I want to know how doing what Jesus said in John13:34 violates or means to follow the ten commandments.

Thank you regarding my stepdaughter!

What is THE SPIRIT of the 10 Commandments?

To love?

IF YOU LOVE your brother, would you;

KILL HIM
STEAL FROM HIM
LIE TO HIM
TAKE HIS WIFE.

God is LOVE.

The LAW in a KINGDOM RULED BY LOVE would be what?

TO LOVE?

What does 1 John 3 say BEFORE what what quoted by Bob S.?

11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.(10 Commandments)



But the 10 Commandments were written in stone.

But when LOVE is WRITTEN IN OUR HEARTS, then we keep the Commandments to love, because the LOVE in our hearts can allow us to do no other than to love.

Even those that rape your stepdaughter.

How much easier would it be to not eat a ham sandwich?


IF you love your enemies, as Christ loved us when we were HIS ENEMY,

You are keeping the FIRST COMMANDMENTS To LOVE,

even as we keep the NEW COMMANDMENT OF CHRIST TO LOVE,

which is the same as the first 10.

TO LOVE.

You DO NOT KILL, because THE LOVE written in your heart will not allow it!

You DO NOT STEAL, because THE LOVE written in your heart will not allow it!

You DO NOT BRAT FALSE WITNESS, because THE LOVE written in your heart will not allow it!

You DO NOT TAKE THE LORDS NAME IN VAIN, because THE LOVE written in your heart will not allow it!

Proverbs 1:32
For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Neither OT or NT required that gentiles be circumcised to be saved... we both knew that... right?

How is that not part of the OT?

If gentiles joined the Hebrews, they had to become circumcised and follow all the Law.