proving evolution as just a "theory"

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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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humans also have genes for feathers developmant:

http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2014/11/20/your-inner-feather/


so according to this criteria we now need to believe that humans evolved from birds?. of course not. shared genes can be evidence for the same designer.

I never see science advocates here engaged in the dishonest tactic of posting something incorrect, being corrected by another member and continuing to post it as if they had never been corrected. I see this dishonest tactic from C/IDers here constantly. This post is yet another example.

In April corrected xianghua about this claim.
I'll just stop you right there because you're misunderstanding the study you're citing. Mammals don't have genes for feathers or genes for feather development. We have genes that, in birds, are used for gene development. This is akin, I have pointed out twice now, the mammals and birds both having melanocytes, but one lineages uses them for skin/fur color while the other uses them to color plumage.​

He continued this dishonesty into May.
I very clearly stated that humans do not have genes for feathers and noted that would be required for a violation of the nested hierarchy as you are falsely trying to portray the situation. Again, we have the genes which are used in feather development birds (as do many other mammals and reptiles), we do not have genes used for feather development.

Let my semantic discussion seem obtuse - if X1, Y4 and Z3 genes are used in both mammals and birds, but in mammals they make hair and fingernails, but in birds they make feathers, then we don't have the pathways that make feathers. Here's an example - Hoxd12 plays a role in the formation of the cetacean flipper. It also plays a role in the formation of bird wings. By your "logic", that means whales have "genes for wing development".​

C/IDists are very, very dishonest.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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Can you show evidence that we had feathers. Shared genes do nothing unless all the genes line up. They don't, we don't have feathers and there is no evidence that we ever did. Similarities do not mean evolution is accurate. It shows there is a common design and that God used common designs in his creation.

I have asked cdesign proponentists this previously and I don't recall every getting an answer. If God used common design, why do we observe:
- Chimpanzees and humans sharing 203,000 endogenous retroviral insertions.
- All haplorhines, including humans, sharing a broken GULO gene that is broken the exact same way.
- Whales having the Sonic Hedgehog (yes, that's a real gene)/Hand2 pathway for hind limb development if they never had hind limbs according to Creationists.
- All Therian mammals having pseudogenes for forming egg yolk sacs.
- Etc.
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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I don't think anyone is talking about humans and spiders sharing a common ancestor, bar you.

Out of my own personal interest, I did attempt to track down our nearest common ancestor. To do that, it looks like you need to go all the way back to the very early Cambrian, to the split between vertebrates (our ancestral lineage - things with spinal columns) and arthropods (spiders' ancestral linage - things with exoskeletons and segmented bodies). Long story short - it's somewhere in the region of 530 million years plus.

Which is really cool.

According to Time Tree, it was closer to 790 mya.
human_spiders_divergence time.jpg
 
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gaara4158

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The sons of God were "Their" kind, the kind The Trinity created from water on the 5th Day, which was some 3.8 Billion years ago in man's time. Gen 1:21 Humans, were made some 10 Billion years BEFORE the last universal common ancestor appeared in the water of our Earth. Gen 2:4-7 Humans were made to live forever and had a Shekinah Glory or brightness like that of Jesus. Humans are "His" kind or the kind which Jesus made with His own Hands.

Humans (His kind) arrived on our Earth 11k years ago Map: Fertile Cresent, 9000 to 4500 BCE and Noah's grandsons produced children with the descendants of the sons of God (prehistoric people) (Their kind). Gen 10:10 This fulfilled the prophecy of Gen 6:4 which tells us the SAME thing happened on Adam's Earth since Cain had NO other Humans to marry. The prophecy is found in the "and also after that".

Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God (prehistoric man) came in unto the daughters of men, (Heb-Adam) and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Sex is the only way to change one's intelligence. You either inherit the superior intelligence of Adam or you do NOT. The ToE is the biggest Satanic Lie ever forced upon innocent children. Such blasphemy is evidence that we are truly living in the last days before Jesus returns. Amen?
And we’ve come full circle. If you’re not interested in substantiating your wild claims, just say so. Don’t jerk us around with bible verses and non sequiturs.
 
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gaara4158

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Oh good grief we are not talking about common ancestors of humans being humans. We are talking about common ancestors of ours being the spider. Big difference.
I am running out of different ways to phrase this. My point isn’t to prove evolution, it’s to compare the explanatory power of evolution vs. creationism. Think of it this way: you see a flattened raccoon in the middle of the road. Was it a car that flattened it, or was it a coon-flattening goon? There’s no way to know for sure, but because we’ve never seen a coon-flattening goon and we HAVE seen cars on the road, a car is a better explanation for the flattened raccoon. Get it?
 
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_-iconoclast-_

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Did I say I was 100% certain? There's a big difference between accepting an explanation of something and claiming 100% certainty.

Hey hey james dean :)

My dear, Ill refer to a previous statement you made.

"I think it extremely unlikely that evidence will emerge that will overturn the hypothesis of common descent, it can be considered a fact... that's good enough for me."





extremely- to a very great degree; very.

Unlikely - not likely to happen, be done, or be true; improbable. Likely - might happen

So to very great degree, it might not happen







Certain - able to be firmly relied on to happen or be the case.

fact - a thing that is known or proved to be true.



Please excuse me friend you seem vague.If you are not 100% certain then what are you?

Anything less than 100% suggests you have doubt. What makes you slightly uncertain? Why do you accept something you are not 100% certain of?

Evolution is your belief. I assume that you must utilise the scientific method in all your life?

I can't say that I would disagree with those sentences though.

Do you accept them as part of your core beliefs? :)


Cheers hey
 
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_-iconoclast-_

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Unfortunately, all we know about god, is what people say about

Hey slap :)

It is true people taught me the formula. The way to reach God.

Does this go both ways and you learnt disbelief from others?

In relation to your disbelief in God. Could i say that all you know about atheism is what other people have said?



Does this mean we are both in the same boat?


Cheers my dear :)
 
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_-iconoclast-_

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How do you go about demonstrating what you believe the truth to be?

Hey hey my friend :)

How do i clearly show the existence or truth of (something) by giving proof or evidence.

What type of proof do you expect my dear?







How do I prove a personal experience? Its like a comet, either you saw it, or you didnt. How do I prove to you a saw a comet?

Or like a tasty meal. If you wont taste it how do i prove it is good?

Cheers friend :)
 
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Justatruthseeker

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I didn't say we observe one creature evolving into another, I said we observe common descent, as a phenomenon. We observe that designed things need designers. Complexity is not a requirement for design, and design is not a requirement for complexity. We do not observe a creator for life. We observe many organisms having common ancestors. Because it is observed, it is a better explanation for life than creation.
Of course common descent is what you observe. Kind after Kind, you were informed long ago that common descent is to be expected, and is exactly what we see. There is no surprise there, nothing that proves evolution. The question you must answer is not that we observe common descent, but how all life originated to begin with. I expect nothing less than common descent, Kind after Kind.....


Even if you're a creationist you have to believe that all humans, traced back far enough, share the same ancestors. What's your point here?
And seriously? No changes in the entire history of mankind? You're just trolling now.
Sure we all share the same ancestors. Kind after Kind, why would I expect my ancestors to be different than me?

I am the same species as my parents, who were the same species as their parents, who were the same species as their parents, as far back as you care to go and as far into the future as you care to go.

If scientists are in error, you're welcome to correct them.
Wouldn't do any good. They got DNA evidence that Finches have been interbreeding since they arrived on the islands yet refuse to correct their mistakes in classification. All because Darwin thought they were reproductively isolated.

It's called natural selection. It's not even in dispute. Again, you really should stop trying to answer your own questions and wait for someone competent to do it for you.
If what you say is true then almost the entire animal population should be less fit with only a few more fit. If my parents pass down a mutation that makes me more fit, then only MY descendants have this mutation, not the entire human population. Which means I have to breed with those less fit, which would reduce the effects of the mutation, not strengthen it in succeeding generations. All future generations more fit would have to come from my descendants, and only mine.

Yet evolutionists want to claim that if it started with two, as creation claims, the population would not be fit... yet for the entire human population to share all the same genes, they would need to come from just two......

Contradiction after self contradiction, error after error, incorrect classification after incorrect classification.....
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Not at all. It's the exact same process at work, just over millions of generations instead of over a handful.

This is where I think the biggest challenge for creationists tends to be conceptual; with a recursive process like evolution, small changes over time can add up to big changes. But it's hard to conceptualize that when our frame of reference is so short.
Short? Supposedly the dinosaurs died out over 95 million years ago. Isn't that enough time to be causing mutations to be taking effect right now in our observational timeframe?
 
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Justatruthseeker

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I have asked cdesign proponentists this previously and I don't recall every getting an answer. If God used common design, why do we observe:
- Chimpanzees and humans sharing 203,000 endogenous retroviral insertions.
- All haplorhines, including humans, sharing a broken GULO gene that is broken the exact same way.
- Whales having the Sonic Hedgehog (yes, that's a real gene)/Hand2 pathway for hind limb development if they never had hind limbs according to Creationists.
- All Therian mammals having pseudogenes for forming egg yolk sacs.
- Etc.
Common design, you answered your own question. For the same reason everything in the entire universe, from dust to rocks to life is made from the exact same protons, neutrons and electrons. Common design.

You might as well claim hydrogen is the ancestor to gold, that gold simply underwent mutations. Just because hydrogen was formed first, does not mean it mutated to become gold. Just because gold is made from the same protons, neutrons and electrons, does not mean it is descended from hydrogen.

On the most basics of levels they are similar, no, they share the exact same protons, neutrons and electrons, but one does not become the other. In fact we are unable to change hydrogen into gold, despite our ability to add or subtract electrons and protons from substances. Each is similar, yet unique. Each share the same building blocks.

Now if you wish to claim our common ancestor was dust, I'd have to agreee.
 
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Bugeyedcreepy

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No, you can not credit Evolution Theory for those things. Those are repeatably measurable sciences not a theory. The paid scientists may advocate evolution, but they are being paid for saying that. There is an agenda and we know this, so let us not beat around the bush.
Sure I can. the Theory of Evolution - which is a scientific theory of course - is exactly the product of science and the scientific method. a Theory in science is as validated as science gets, the word 'Theory' in science is not equivalent to the everyday meaning and usage of the word to the layperson. It is the recognition that an idea or hypothesis has been so rigorously and repeatedly tested and continues to be validated by these experiments, data and facts that it might as well be considered true. It is a predictive framework that explains the facts and data while laying the groundwork to make useful predictions that continue to validate the theory.

It seems plainly obvious you don't understand science let alone the particular scientific theory you're rallying against...
That is religiousism not creationism. Evolutionists are doing exactly the same thing, though with an antithesis narrative. What served the elites back then who fund the sciences are now behind another horse. ;)
Religiousism, creationism, call it what you like, they equally contribute nothing to our collective knowledge and technological progress
Ok, so, caterpillar into butterflies and tadpoles into frogs aren't what's being discussed. Changes in the frequency of alleles in a population over time, is.
You have just proven that species are locked down and that hybridisation in its unadulterated meaning can never happen.
Except that it Does! The evidence regarding ring species still remains unaddressed. How is it that the species can interbreed with their fellow species around some impenetrable barrier, yet when the two ends of that species meet at the other side, they can't breed? See the Greenish Warbler as a prime example - Ring species - Wikipedia . That, and how is it that some of the big cats can have viable offspring with other big cats, though given their distance since divergence, the success of having offspring at all is directly correlated to it. Also regarding horse/donkey hybrids, you'll find a Jenny (female Mule) can in some cases have offspring - ergo, you're still wrong.
There is adaptation within the species and is expected, but it is not evolution from one species to a completely different one, that is a whale to a man, which accounts for evolution Theory teachings.
A whale to man evolution would disprove evolution - I don't get why you keep coming back to this. A whale, like all mammals, is actually derived from a proto mammal that lived entirely on land well over a hundred million years ago. Whatever you want to call it, change in alleles in a population over time is evolution.
Your looking at the finite and neglecting what should have been on the macro, too numerous of failed neomorpha and xenomorphs species in the inbetween processes.
Except all the similar animals living right now and in all likeliness undergoing the same conversion to sea life as the cetaceans did (otter, hippo, seal, walrus, manatee, etc.) are all getting along just fine. Your straw man of exoskeleton freaks isn't what evolution would expect to find, unless there's a survival advantage to it.

Anything that wasn't viable doesn't survive to pass on its genes. Again, more than 98% of all species that have ever lived, are now extinct.
Again it is adaptation and not evolution my friend. These defintions of terms can not be confused. You cannot use evolution whenever it is clearly an adaption process, which is absent of millions of millions of years of neomorph lifeforms that came into being but were unsustained. You would see a horror book of fossils and that you do not see.
You clearly don't understand the Theory of Evolution. If it makes you feel better, call it adaptation. As long as it involves the change in allele frequency in a population over time, we're talking about the same thing, no matter your protests... This we repeatedly see in the lab and in the wild, it's undeniable. Each and every fine grained gradual change in the fossil record over time is there for all to see, even if you won't look at it. You can only pretend it isn't there because you don't have an answer for it.
That is trying to claim a macro evolution and fails to provide the evidence and I find the terms confused again in an effort to sway me to think that the micro is somehow the macro and that adaptation is evolution. Come on friend, please, please.
Great! Pick any point on that page you don't agree with and show me your counter-evidence and let's discuss it. In fact, in everything you've posted above, the whole lot just seems to be an endless whine about how you don't like it. You don't address any of the evidence I've fronted.
Really, so you are a well funded teacher and/or researcher for the Australian government who sets teaching policy right? Now how did I know that my friend? Good guess! ;)
Nope, Science, the scientific method and the Theory of Evolution (amongst many scientific theories) are an integral part of our education system here. Don't get me wrong, we still get the odd crazy slip through the cracks but for the most part, we've got a strong science and technology sector that's quite competitive with the rest of the first world - particularly in Medical sciences... we're responsible for quite a lot of groundbreaking progress in this sector that the rest of the world benefits from every day. Unlike us though, the US Medical Research are quite hamstrung in what they can do and as a direct result, have missed out on much of the progress in the biomedical space. Shame really... (but we don't mind!)... :)
I love Australia and Australians.
Yay! :D
 
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xianghua

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We observe creatures sharing common ancestors. For example, siblings share the same parents and cousins share the same grandparents.

but both are humans. so it's not changes of kinds. can you show that fish and human shared a common descent? you cant do that and it's just a belief rather then science.

We don't observe creatures being designed by some "creator" and we don't observe any kind of "creator" being.

we can know that something is designed even without watcing the designer. a watch is a good example.
 
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bhsmte

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Hey hey my friend :)

How do i clearly show the existence or truth of (something) by giving proof or evidence.

What type of proof do you expect my dear?







How do I prove a personal experience? Its like a comet, either you saw it, or you didnt. How do I prove to you a saw a comet?

Or like a tasty meal. If you wont taste it how do i prove it is good?

Cheers friend :)

Taste is subjective and varies from person to person, would you agree? If one declares knowledge of truth, i would expect some form of independent objective supportbof the same, if they expect others to be convinced.
 
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xianghua

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pitabread

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such as cat evolving into a dog?

Existing extant species don't evolve into other existing extant species. That's not how evolution works. You've been here long enough to already know this,so you really have no excuse.

so a watch doesnt need a designer?

Do you think that watches and weather systems are the same thing?
 
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Jimmy D

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Hey hey james dean :)

My dear, Ill refer to a previous statement you made.

"I think it extremely unlikely that evidence will emerge that will overturn the hypothesis of common descent, it can be considered a fact... that's good enough for me."





extremely- to a very great degree; very.

Unlikely - not likely to happen, be done, or be true; improbable. Likely - might happen

So to very great degree, it might not happen







Certain - able to be firmly relied on to happen or be the case.

fact - a thing that is known or proved to be true.



Please excuse me friend you seem vague.If you are not 100% certain then what are you?

Anything less than 100% suggests you have doubt. What makes you slightly uncertain? Why do you accept something you are not 100% certain of?

Evolution is your belief. I assume that you must utilise the scientific method in all your life?

99.5% certain, no wait, 99.7% or is it 99.9%? What is is with you religious types and your need for 100% certainty.

There is a possibility that tomorrow we'll discover that the magic space unicorn created all life on Earth and just made it look exactly like it had evolved, which is why it would be foolish to claim something as absolute truth.

I don't know why you think my opinion or beliefs have any bearing on the empirical evidence that demonstrates common ancestry though.

Having said that I'm not dogmatic in my "beliefs", if you can demonstrate that we don't come from a common ancestor I'm all ears.
 
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Bugeyedcreepy

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no they dont. they just makes other creatures. they dont evolve from a molecule. exactly like a car.
They EXACTLY Evolve from a molecule... DNA is a Molecule! Cars don't grow, they're manufactured. but Sure, Show me a car that grows from a strand of DNA.
 
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xianghua

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I never see science advocates here engaged in the dishonest tactic of posting something incorrect, being corrected by another member and continuing to post it as if they had never been corrected. I see this dishonest tactic from C/IDers here constantly. This post is yet another example.


you actually said then that:

" Mammals don't have genes for feathers or genes for feather development. We have genes that, in birds, are used for gene development"

and i answered:

"true. so it will be no problem for evolution if we will find a mammal with feathers".

and your answer to this logical conclusion was: "Just stop. Please, just stop". very "convincing".
 
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