Divorcing because "Irreconcilable Differences"

[blackribbon]

I would think that argument would only work until about 25. I would think that it would be more difficult to date a >30 year old just because to get married you need to be able to live independent of your parent's support. (I doubt that the high earning guys are dating the women living at home...so the women are going to have to contribute to the family income at least initially).

 

[CodyFaith]

"What God has joined together, let man not seperate" - God.

 

[Servant68]

In fact if possible I think it is good to meet also with the other ex-spouse to listen to that side of the story.

You can't possibly be serious. I'm not even going to address that suggestion...

Speaking as the only other divorced person to chime in on this thread, I can tell you it is rather amusing to see some of the harsh judging going on.

Irreconcilable differences is what was put on my divorce decree by my ex-wife. Two days after the divorce was finalized, she married another man after telling me to my face a couple of months prior, in what was a rather amicable divorce, that she would probably never marry again.

But every divorce is different because people are different. But then again, they are all the same as well.

In my case, there was no abuse, no addiction issues, no infidelity (that I knew of), just a couple of people who said they were Christians that weren't walking with the Lord.

I wanted counseling, I wanted us to work things out, I didn't want to throw away a 20yr marriage. She refused and had already started corresponding with a former high school boyfriend months earlier unbeknownst to me or her family.

She had defiled the marriage with her actions all the while accusing me of not being a real Christian like her.

Of course I wasn't perfect; I drank and smoked, was negative, miserable in my job, grossly out of shape, and not taking my faith seriously. I had been sleeping in the guest room for years.

You can't possibly imagine what it's like to live with someone who does not like you. I have an issue with rejection due to my parent's divorce at a young age. My new wife, a month after our marriage, began rejecting me intimately and claimed she felt like she was being raped whenever we were together. You can't possibly know what that did to my self confidence and outlook on life over the next twenty years.

So yes, we needed serious counseling and we never got it.

So here I am, a 40-somethng man who goes to church and is working on all of the thing my ex-wife didn't like about me, yet I am being judged within the church simply because my marriage failed.

I'm a nice guy and a good man. Ask my kids. I didn't cheat, abuse, or do any of the awful things most people assume you did if you're divorced.

 

[blackribbon]

Servant is right. There is often a reasonably innocent person in a divorce. That is the one that didn't want the marriage to end but you can only fight so long with someone before you realize you have to let them go. Be careful to not be too harsh because chances are that they are very tender in this topic. It would hurt horribly for your GF/BF to go spend time with the person that betrayed you in the worst way.

 

[ThisIsMe123]

Some people would say it's because it's up to a man to provide a house for his wife, so a man is undate-able because he doesn't have a home of his own, whereas all she has to do is move out to live with him. That's not my opinion, but I've heard that argument before. Personally I think it's male bovine poo.

Yeah it is debate-able. I hear in some cultures, like the deep south, people didn't move out of their parents home until they got married. Heck, I know of some married couples that lived with their parents...but they were saving up money until they found a place of their own.

So obviously the woman in that marriage didn't seem to mind the arrangement of having the parents in the next room.

 

[ThisIsMe123]

You can't possibly be serious. I'm not even going to address that suggestion...

Speaking as the only other divorced person to chime in on this thread, I can tell you it is rather amusing to see some of the harsh judging going on.

Irreconcilable differences is what was put on my divorce decree by my ex-wife. Two days after the divorce was finalized, she married another man after telling me to my face a couple of months prior, in what was a rather amicable divorce, that she would probably never marry again.

But every divorce is different because people are different. But then again, they are all the same as well.

In my case, there was no abuse, no addiction issues, no infidelity (that I knew of), just a couple of people who said they were Christians that weren't walking with the Lord.

I wanted counseling, I wanted us to work things out, I didn't want to throw away a 20yr marriage. She refused and had already started corresponding with a former high school boyfriend months earlier unbeknownst to me or her family.

She had defiled the marriage with her actions all the while accusing me of not being a real Christian like her.

Of course I wasn't perfect; I drank and smoked, was negative, miserable in my job, grossly out of shape, and not taking my faith seriously. I had been sleeping in the guest room for years.

You can't possibly imagine what it's like to live with someone who does not like you. I have an issue with rejection due to my parent's divorce at a young age. My new wife, a month after our marriage, began rejecting me intimately and claimed she felt like she was being raped whenever we were together. You can't possibly know what that did to my self confidence and outlook on life over the next twenty years.

So yes, we needed serious counseling and we never got it.

So here I am, a 40-somethng man who goes to church and is working on all of the thing my ex-wife didn't like about me, yet I am being judged within the church simply because my marriage failed.

I'm a nice guy and a good man. Ask my kids. I didn't cheat, abuse, or do any of the awful things most people assume you did if you're divorced.

Wow, after a month into a 20 year marriage, she told you she felt like she felt she was like feeling raped by you? Man, that's quite revealing...it's almost as if she was enjoying hurting your feelings. She must have enjoyed it or a sadist.

I guess it's true, as soon as the wedding ring goes on, their true nature is revealed.

I recall this one Christian woman that liked me, she was a 45 year old divorcee', and said that she doesn't believe in sex outside of marriage, which is fine...she said she had a hard time dating because when 40-something guys found this out, they told her she'd never find a man that would go along with it.

I was fine with it, but...she was bossy. Very demanding personality. I couldn't help but to think that if she married me, she'd use intimacy (sex) as leverage in the marriage. That's the vibe I got from her.

She even demanded on our 2nd date to cut my day short for my mom which we had planned to spend my mom's B-day together. She was like, "How long are you going to be with her?" and I was like "We planned the day together". That sent chills up my spine.

Anyways, yeah, arranging a meeting with the ex? Yeah, ridiculous notion.

 

[ThisIsMe123]

Servant is right. There is often a reasonably innocent person in a divorce. That is the one that didn't want the marriage to end but you can only fight so long with someone before you realize you have to let them go. Be careful to not be too harsh because chances are that they are very tender in this topic. It would hurt horribly for your GF/BF to go spend time with the person that betrayed you in the worst way.

Yeah, I've noticed when marriage counseling is suggested, it's usually dismissed by the party who wants completely out of the marriage. They don't WANT to work on it because they've probably "checked out" mentally a year prior.

This woman even monkey-branched to her old high school flame. Had something set up already. Which is typical.

Remember back in the day, divorce wasn't an option? My family history is like that, no one just got "bored" one day and said, "I'm just tired of seeing his face every day, so...I want out!"

Some have cited to have said that they just "miss being single", so it's nothing personal.

 

[Citanul]

From what you said, I don't think it's location, but it's the age group. So it would make sense you'd meet 20-somethings that have never been married. It's probably common knowledge. But when you start getting into your 30s/mid-30s, the accumulation of Christian divorcee's skyrocket. lol

I haven't really noticed it skyrocketing, although I suppose it's possible that divorcees may have their opportunities to get out limited by the age of the children, so I wouldn't be encountering them all that much. But just looking at my work colleagues, who are aged 28-45, there are eleven who are married and only one who's divorced, and as far as I know all those who are married are on their first marriage. Granted, that's not a particularly big sample, but I don't think it's an unrealistic cross section.

Maybe my experiences with encountering divorcees are atypical, but I still think that there are some places where divorce is a bigger issue than others.

 

[ThisIsMe123]

I haven't really noticed it skyrocketing, although I suppose it's possible that divorcees may have their opportunities to get out limited by the age of the children, so I wouldn't be encountering them all that much. But just looking at my work colleagues, who are aged 28-45, there are eleven who are married and only one who's divorced, and as far as I know all those who are married are on their first marriage. Granted, that's not a particularly big sample, but I don't think it's an unrealistic cross section.

Maybe my experiences with encountering divorcees are atypical, but I still think that there are some places where divorce is a bigger issue than others.

Must be your area. I'm guessing you live in a somewhat smaller community? I've noticed the smaller the community, the more likely married couples stay together. Less options in smaller cities.

 

[Paulie079]

I don't see why we should expect people to stay together for life. If they would be happier together, they're not going to break up, and if they would be happier apart, then that seems like a reasonable course of action.

I don't care if they justify it to me. No one owes it to me to stay married.

The problem with this reasoning is that happiness is a fickle emotion/state of mind. Human beings very much tend to be "grass is always greener" types. There is a longing for something to satisfy them that their current circumstances don't satisfy, so they want to change the thing that, in their minds, causes them the most unrest. Then the change is made and they still find that they aren't happy. Living for oneself and chasing happiness usually turns out this way.
The other problem is that marriage, approached rightly, should be about the other person's happiness, not one's own happiness. Marriage held in high regard and not seen in such a shallow light, and entered into selflessly, is a powerful thing.

Also, if our moral foundations are based on what makes each individual happy and that they aren't accountable to anyone else for their choices, we are in a lot of trouble. I don't think you really truly want to live in a world like that.

 

[Cearbhall]

The problem with this reasoning is that happiness is a fickle emotion/state of mind. Human beings very much tend to be "grass is always greener" types.

It's still not my place to shame or coerce someone into staying together when they haven't achieved that step of self-awareness yet. And it's possible that this realization doesn't reflect the reality of the situation and will never occur. People outside the marriage rarely know 100% of what went on. I can't imagine thinking that I know better than them.

Also, if our moral foundations are based on what makes each individual happy and that they aren't accountable to anyone else for their choices, we are in a lot of trouble. I don't think you really truly want to live in a world like that.

I really truly don't want to live in a world where anyone besides myself gets to decide whether I'm married or not.

 

[CCHIPSS]

You can't possibly be serious. I'm not even going to address that suggestion...

Speaking as the only other divorced person to chime in on this thread, I can tell you it is rather amusing to see some of the harsh judging going on.

Irreconcilable differences is what was put on my divorce decree by my ex-wife. Two days after the divorce was finalized, she married another man after telling me to my face a couple of months prior, in what was a rather amicable divorce, that she would probably never marry again.

But every divorce is different because people are different. But then again, they are all the same as well.

In my case, there was no abuse, no addiction issues, no infidelity (that I knew of), just a couple of people who said they were Christians that weren't walking with the Lord.

I wanted counseling, I wanted us to work things out, I didn't want to throw away a 20yr marriage. She refused and had already started corresponding with a former high school boyfriend months earlier unbeknownst to me or her family.

She had defiled the marriage with her actions all the while accusing me of not being a real Christian like her.

Of course I wasn't perfect; I drank and smoked, was negative, miserable in my job, grossly out of shape, and not taking my faith seriously. I had been sleeping in the guest room for years.

You can't possibly imagine what it's like to live with someone who does not like you. I have an issue with rejection due to my parent's divorce at a young age. My new wife, a month after our marriage, began rejecting me intimately and claimed she felt like she was being raped whenever we were together. You can't possibly know what that did to my self confidence and outlook on life over the next twenty years.

So yes, we needed serious counseling and we never got it.

So here I am, a 40-somethng man who goes to church and is working on all of the thing my ex-wife didn't like about me, yet I am being judged within the church simply because my marriage failed.

I'm a nice guy and a good man. Ask my kids. I didn't cheat, abuse, or do any of the awful things most people assume you did if you're divorced.

I am very sorry to hear your story. Please understand that my post was not made against you or someone like you. But I believe my point should stand.

Because let's say I am dating your ex-wife. Your ex-wife of course would tell lies about you to me. She will say how unlivable it was with you. She will say you weren't a true Christians because you did this and that (all lies). She will say you drank, smoke, out of shape, etc. And she will falsely say that you "raped" her by forcing her to do things she weren't comfortable with. So she call you the abuser. So the divorce was all 100% your fault.

Once again the above are all lies. But how would I know that unless I talk with you? I am your brother in Christ. If you love me, would you want to tell me the truth?

Perhaps I made it sound like that I was being judgmental against the victim. But no that wasn't my point. My point is if I were to I date a lady who was married, I would like to meet her ex just to see who is the victim and who is the abuser in that relationship (if it exists). Without talking to both sides, how would I know which is which? Your ex-wife of course will tell terrible tales about you. Your story actually shows the importance of meeting my partner's ex husband (in this scenario).

And of course there are cases where I start dating the victim, and by meeting his/her ex spouse I am actually meeting the abuser. And the abuser is often very manipulative. So it does take a lot of wisdom and Holy Spirit power to discern.

 

[Servant68]

It's still not my place to shame or coerce someone into staying together when they haven't achieved that step of self-awareness yet. And it's possible that this realization doesn't reflect the reality of the situation and will never occur. People outside the marriage rarely know 100% of what went on. I can't imagine thinking that I know better than them.

I really truly don't want to live in a world where anyone besides myself gets to decide whether I'm married or not.

What about the impact of failed relationships on children? In my case, my parent's divorce at a young age was very traumatic, as it is for most children.

Does the psychological impact on innocent children play anywhere in your "do whatever feels good" theory on life?

 

[Servant68]

Once again the above are all lies. But how would I know that unless I talk with you? I am your brother in Christ. If you love me, would you want to tell me the truth?

Perhaps I made it sound like that I was being judgmental against the victim. But no that wasn't my point. My point is if I were to I date a lady who was married, I would like to meet her ex just to see who is the victim and who is the abuser in that relationship (if it exists). Without talking to both sides, how would I know which is which? Your ex-wife of course will tell terrible tales about you. Your story actually shows the importance of meeting my partner's ex husband (in this scenario).

And of course there are cases where I start dating the victim, and by meeting his/her ex spouse I am actually meeting the abuser. And the abuser is often very manipulative. So it does take a lot of wisdom and Holy Spirit power to discern.

Sorry, but you just aren't getting it. If you are dating a woman who was abused by her ex-husband and you tell her that you would like to meet her ex-husband to "confirm" her story, then you will effectively end that relationship and seriously hurt someone who was already hurting from the abuse.

And if you are doubting the veracity of the abuse allegations of the woman you are dating, then you shouldn't be dating her.

I don't care what my ex has told her new husband about me. He got involved with a married woman and committed adultery with her and will be held accountable for that by God.

I work with a guy that is going through the courts to get visitation with his 4yr old son after his ex-wife claimed abuse.

I know this guy and he is completely innocent of those charges. He's provided physical evidence that his ex-wife is actually the abuser. But her new husband thinks my buddy is a monster despite my buddy having talked to him and provided his side of the story. And despite the new husband sitting in court and seeing his new bride be proven to be a bipolar liar by documentation and psychiatrist testimony.

Going to the former spouse to get intel on the person you're currently dating is never a good idea. Period.

 

[Cearbhall]

Does the psychological impact on innocent children play anywhere in your "do whatever feels good" theory on life?

My what? Did you quote the right person?

 

[Gnarwhal]

Hm I would figure this behavior, ie, dish throwing and the like, would something you'd pick up from while dating her , yes? I know it's "Could have, would have, should have" as it's water under the bridge...but I guess there's something to be said for people hiding this behavior well, and then come the honey moon night, she throws something at you? and you're like "What have I done?!"

Anyway, there's another thing that comes to mind. Is it wrong to date a divorced person that has been divorced through "Irreconcilable diff?

I mean, we as never been married Christians, who come across so many divorcee's, are really going to bother with vetting our dating prospects with, "So...what's your reason for divorcing? Oh, you just grew apart? Sorry, can't date ya."

Plus, that is an awkward topic to bring up.

Oh yeah, there's a lot of behavior I would've picked up on and used to make an informed decision if A) we had dated longer than two months before I proposed, and B) was willing to look. All of those bad decisions I made to advance the relationship the way I did were rooted in the bad experiences from the relationship I had come out of not three weeks before we met. What I should've done was go to counseling, spend months unpacking the whole thing, get mentally/emotionally healthy again, and then make myself available for a relationship. Counseling wasn't even on my radar, and because of that, neither were any of the warning signs that were glaringly obvious.

To answer your question, as a Catholic I wouldn't date a divorced person unless the Church had determined their marriage never happened, and they had received a declaration of nullity from the Church. Otherwise I wouldn't even start something with that person. The nice thing about that is the Church has a stringent process of determining whether the couple legitimately entered into the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony or not, so if they go through all of the facts and say "XYZ impeded your guys' ability to enter into the marriage" then they really weren't.

 

[Citanul]

Must be your area. I'm guessing you live in a somewhat smaller community? I've noticed the smaller the community, the more likely married couples stay together. Less options in smaller cities.

About four million people in the metropolitan area, so not a smaller city. But marriage and kids tends to only happen mid-to-late 20s (at least the the social circles I find myself part of), so the later age of marriage could be contributing to a lower divorce rate than other places.

 

[Barzel]

Chiming in on the "meet the ex" idea:

I've never been married, and therefore never divorced. I have, however, been abused. If I'm dating a woman, I'll tell her about my abuse. Probably not all at once, but it'll be something that comes up in conversation. If she then wants to meet my abusers to get their side of the story, well, two things:

1. That's so not happening.

2. Her even suggesting the idea would, at the very least, slam the brakes on our relationship and move it back by a few hundred miles.

First off, why does she need to meet the people who hurt me? What possible reason would she have for it? To confirm my side of the story? So much for trust. If I tell her of my abuse and make myself out as a saint, she has every right to call me out and ask what I did in response to the abuse. That's a fair question, if she asks it with the right motives.

What's not okay is to do what amounts to a background check on your significant other, especially to satisfy your curiosity. If you distrust them so much you feel the need to dig into their past like that, you're in the wrong relationship.

Second, what good does it do to get that much detail about someone's past? If you talk to my abusers, they'll tell you what I was like back then. But I'm here now, much different from back then. Talking to past abusers is like rifling through the family photos to find all the embarrassing pictures of your significant other and claiming they help you to better understand them. That dog don't hunt.

Third, as I hope you can tell, it's nerve-wracking for your significant other. It's like you're dragging up all that history, dumping it in their lap, and saying, "Help me to understand you by reliving all of it. And just for the grins and giggles, relive it again from someone else's perspective while you relive it from your own. This will help me to understand you better."

That's not going to happen. No. No, no, no, no, no. I don't need to know specifics. I don't need "the full story." What I care about is the person in front of me, the woman who per-maybe-haps crawled through her own personal hell to be who she is. In that case, I'd want to know generally what she went through, how it affected her, how she's overcome it, and who she is today. I'll take as much detail as she wants to give me, when she's good and ready to give it. But who she is, is not who she was, and I don't need to force trauma on her again just to "know her better."

"Who are you and how can I show you love by being sensitive to who you are?" That's what I want to know. Ye gods and little fishes, I've had people dig into my past, and one five-minute conversation took me weeks to recover from. Don't do that to people. Anxiety attacks are called "attacks" for a reason.

 

[JAM2b]

Waddler, I agree 100% whole-heartedly. You said this all very well.

 

[JAM2b]

When I tell people about my family's and my ex-husband's dysfunction, abuse, and neglect, and unfaithfulness, I tend to keep the details short. I almost always follow it up with a statement that they will tell the opposite, or that I'm crazy or a liar. I also tell them that I am not the same person that I was when I was victimized by these people who were supposed to love me. I don't go any farther than that with most people. They can choose to believe me or not. They can choose to get to know me now for who I am, or not. But I'm not subjecting myself to their judgement or doubts. I don't owe them anything.