historicist vs futurist

Sab

Member
Sep 18, 2017
23
2
66
Hobart
✟8,848.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
you are changing the meaning of “the king of the south.” You are changing a power that originated from Egypt to a power that originates from what is now Saudi Arabia.
You claim to have some understanding but again your knowledge of history is dismal. The Ptolemies did NOT originate in Egypt, they were Greek. They were the Greek rulers of Egypt and north Africa. Who replaced them after Cleopatra VII? And after the Romans were defeated who came next?
 
Upvote 0

Sab

Member
Sep 18, 2017
23
2
66
Hobart
✟8,848.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
While the Ottomans indeed conquered Egypt and Libya, they did not subdue Ethiopia, and Edom, Moab, and Ammon (which together comprise modern Jordan) did not escape out of their hands.
The Bedouins escaped out of their hands. The Ottomans were never able to fully subdue them and in the late 19th to early 20th centuries attacks by these nomads weakened the Turkish hold of the glorious land. And they went on to become the kings of the East of Rev 16 after the Euphrates (symbolising the Turkish empire) dried up.
Have a good day. :)
 
Upvote 0

Sab

Member
Sep 18, 2017
23
2
66
Hobart
✟8,848.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
images.png

download.jpg

At the top is the Seljuk empire, below is the Seleucid empire.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Sab

Member
Sep 18, 2017
23
2
66
Hobart
✟8,848.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
And again, in claiming that the Turkish empires fulfilled the sixth trumped of Revelation 9, you are ignoring almost every detail of that prophecy.
Not at all. Rev 9:19 Their power is in their tails.
Are you waiting for a literal fulfillment of this?
100 best Ottoman Horse Tail Standard (Tugh) images on Pinterest | Horse tail, Ottomans and Ottoman empire
Interesting collection of pictures on that page. Among them are several that show the Turkish horse tail insignia. The number of horsetails carried showed the status of the bearer. A sultan had a standard of seven horsetails.
Curious that futurism cannot ever be proven right or wrong, since not one christian will be left on the planet when, according to their theories, these prophecies will be fulfilled. How is any of that applicable to the seven churches the Revelation was addressed to.
At least historicism is relevant to them since ALL of them came under Turkish rule and remain so to this day. I know you're not completely ignorant of this fact as you mentioned the fact that Turks forced people to convert or persecuted them severely in a post you made on another thread. (Pre-Trib Only - Pre-tribulation Rapture Believers Safe House post #845 ) I'm astonished that in a pre trib safe house you bring up the Turks and yet here in a historicist thread you say they cannot possibly be in prophecy.
 
Upvote 0

Biblewriter

Senior Member
Site Supporter
May 15, 2005
11,935
1,498
Ocala, Florida
Visit site
✟531,725.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
As I said, to believe Historicism, you have to assume that none of the prophetic scriptures actually mean what they so explicitly say. I simply do not have time to address your very many historic and prophetic errors.
 
Upvote 0

Sab

Member
Sep 18, 2017
23
2
66
Hobart
✟8,848.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
As I said, to believe Historicism, you have to assume that none of the prophetic scriptures actually mean what they so explicitly say. I simply do not have time to address your very many historic and prophetic errors.
Joel 1:4 explitly says locusts will consume the land while Joel 1:6 tells us that is a nation. This was fulfilled by the Syrian Empire of Antiochus IV.
So it's ok for the symbol of the locust to apply to a nation in Joel but not in Revelation. Are you waiting for grasshoppers to come out of a hole in the ground somewhere?
 
Upvote 0

jgr

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟806,867.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
As I said, to believe Historicism, you have to assume that none of the prophetic scriptures actually mean what they so explicitly say. I simply do not have time to address your very many historic and prophetic errors.
Riiiight. Let's start with Scripture's very first prophecy in Genesis 3:15. Tell us what it explicitly says.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sab
Upvote 0

Sab

Member
Sep 18, 2017
23
2
66
Hobart
✟8,848.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
As I said, to believe Historicism, you have to assume that none of the prophetic scriptures actually mean what they so explicitly say. I simply do not have time to address
You really painted yourself into a corner with this statement. You don't have time to address my errors... i could bring up verses from every book of the bible to show that prophetic verses are figurative not explicit. The lamb has 7 eyes, the dragon has 7 heads, the sun, moon and 11 stars of gen 37, "dogs have surrounded me" (ps 22:16) i see a seething pot towards the north.(jeremiah) i will put hooks in your jaws, can these bones live, for a tiny sampling.
Anyone who suggests that we read symbolic language literally really needs to go back to the Bible 101 class.
I had an idea years ago that we can show the accuracy of scripture from ordinary history books. But if you can't see that too bad for you. He did say blessed are those who see and hear.
 
  • Like
Reactions: jgr
Upvote 0

Biblewriter

Senior Member
Site Supporter
May 15, 2005
11,935
1,498
Ocala, Florida
Visit site
✟531,725.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
You really painted yourself into a corner with this statement. You don't have time to address my errors... i could bring up verses from every book of the bible to show that prophetic verses are figurative not explicit. The lamb has 7 eyes, the dragon has 7 heads, the sun, moon and 11 stars of gen 37, "dogs have surrounded me" (ps 22:16) i see a seething pot towards the north.(jeremiah) i will put hooks in your jaws, can these bones live, for a tiny sampling.
Anyone who suggests that we read symbolic language literally really needs to go back to the Bible 101 class.
I had an idea years ago that we can show the accuracy of scripture from ordinary history books. But if you can't see that too bad for you. He did say blessed are those who see and hear.

The "corner" I have "painted myself into" exists only in your imagination. I have long taught that there are two fixed rules in Bible prophecy.

Visions and dreams are never videos, as it were, of coming events. Without a single exception, every dream of vision which is accompanied by an inspired interpretation, had a meaning entirely different from what had been seen. They are symbolic, and the symbolism is moral, rather than physical, as in a kingdom being represented by a "beast."

But explicit statements of coming events always mean exactly what they say, (allowing, of course, for the use of figures of speech.) Figures of speech are, in their central essence, very different from symbolic language. For the meaning of a figure of speech is obvious, while understanding symbolic language requires a knowledge of the meanings of the symbols being used. As I said earlier, Daniel 11:5-35 is an example, in which every detail of this ling account was literally fulfilled, down to the tiniest detail. So much so that unbelievers claim that its very accuracy proves that it could not have been written before the events recounted took place.

When these two rules are strictly applied, and the whole of Bible prophecy is taken into account, a very clear and not terribly complex scenario emerges. And when either of them is ignored, all becomes confusion.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
When these two rules are strictly applied, and the whole of Bible prophecy is taken into account, a very clear and not terribly complex scenario emerges. And when either of them is ignored, all becomes confusion.


Like the confusion produced by those who ignore the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.


.
 
Upvote 0

Sab

Member
Sep 18, 2017
23
2
66
Hobart
✟8,848.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
The "corner" I have "painted myself into" exists only in your imagination. I have long taught that there are two fixed rules in Bible prophecy.

Visions and dreams are never videos, as it were, of coming events. Without a single exception, every dream of vision which is accompanied by an inspired interpretation, had a meaning entirely different from what had been seen. They are symbolic, and the symbolism is moral, rather than physical, as in a kingdom being represented by a "beast."

But explicit statements of coming events always mean exactly what they say, (allowing, of course, for the use of figures of speech.) Figures of speech are, in their central essence, very different from symbolic language. For the meaning of a figure of speech is obvious, while understanding symbolic language requires a knowledge of the meanings of the symbols being used. As I said earlier, Daniel 11:5-35 is an example, in which every detail of this ling account was literally fulfilled, down to the tiniest detail. So much so that unbelievers claim that its very accuracy proves that it could not have been written before the events recounted took place.
Ah one rule for you and another rule for me. Haha
And in saying visions and dreams are never videos you say that dan 11:5-35 is.
So you're saying that all the symbols in the most apocalyptic book of all will be literally fulfilled.
You need a different nom de plume. Fantasywriter perhaps
 
Upvote 0

Sab

Member
Sep 18, 2017
23
2
66
Hobart
✟8,848.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
When these two rules are strictly applied, and the whole of Bible prophecy is taken into account, a very clear and not terribly complex scenario emerges. And when either of them is ignored, all becomes confusion.
Confusion certainly exists as you scroll through the weird and wacky posts here:
Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum
 
Upvote 0

Biblewriter

Senior Member
Site Supporter
May 15, 2005
11,935
1,498
Ocala, Florida
Visit site
✟531,725.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Ah one rule for you and another rule for me. Haha
And in saying visions and dreams are never videos you say that dan 11:5-35 is.
So you're saying that all the symbols in the most apocalyptic book of all will be literally fulfilled.
You need a different nom de plume. Fantasywriter perhaps

Daniel 11 is not a vision of coming events, but a detailed account of explicitly stated things that were going to happen. And the fact this highly detailed account was given in a vision has no bearing on this fact. I cited verses 5-35 because, rather than being symbolic of anything, the statements in this portion of the account were all fulfilled litrally, down to the tiniest detail.

And the rules I stated are not one rule for me and a different rule for you. It is one rule for one genre of prophecy and a different rule for a different genre of prophecy. These rules are not things that I invented, but things that are made obvious by a careful study of what God actually said.

And I can accept no responsibility for the wild eyed speculations of people who ignore these two rules that consistently apply throughout the entire Bible.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Sab

Member
Sep 18, 2017
23
2
66
Hobart
✟8,848.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Daniel 11 is not a vision of coming events, but a detailed account of explicitly stated things that were going to happen. And the fact this highly detailed account was given in a vision has no bearing on this fact. I cited verses 5-35
You have repeatedly said Dan 11:5-35 are detailed accounts. I agree with you. What about Dan 11:2? How many years does that cover?
Which power is introduced in Dan 11:30?
Another difficulty with the standard interpretation of dan 11:31 is Matthew 24:15. Did Jesus refer to the abomination of desolation as past or future? Clearly Jesus put that in the future, and how did the disciples respond to Jesus' warning of Matt 24:15? They fled in 70AD when the Romans surrounded Jerusalem. So the church from 30 AD to 70 AD somehow linked the prophecy of Dan 11 with the Roman destruction of Jerusalem. How could that be? Lucky you weren't there to tell them how wrong they were. I guess Jesus broke your rules of interpretation too.
You are like many Jews in the first century who were so locked in to how they thought the prophecies about messiah should be fulfilled that they failed to recognise Him when he came. You have read many books about prophecy but have you ever asked the author what He meant? He may surprise you. I know I was surprised and amazed when I asked Him to show me something fresh, because I had read many books too. I knew everything our church taught about prophecy. One of His replies to my prayer about Rev 9 was the August 1969 National Geographic which had a report about the 67-68 plague in North Africa. The maps and quotes in that article pointed straight to Islam.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Sab

Member
Sep 18, 2017
23
2
66
Hobart
✟8,848.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Daniel 11 is not a vision of coming events, but a detailed account of explicitly stated things that were going to happen. And the fact this highly detailed account was given in a vision
You've covered all your bases with this statement. This is not a vision but it was given in a vision... at least everybody will agree with at least half of that statement.
 
Upvote 0

Biblewriter

Senior Member
Site Supporter
May 15, 2005
11,935
1,498
Ocala, Florida
Visit site
✟531,725.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
You've covered all your bases with this statement. This is not a vision but it was given in a vision... at least everybody will agree with at least half of that statement.

It was not a vision showing pictures of coming events. It was a vision in which the prophet was explicitly told events that would happen. These statements moved this prophecy out of the aplocalyptic genre and into the declarative genre. And all of these pronouncements prior to the words "even to the time of the end" Have indeed literally happened exactly as described, down to the tiniest detail. And ALL the claims about later events n this account having been fulfilled, are claiming a "fulfillment" of an entirely different nature. All of these claimed "fulfillments" involve events that somehow bore a resemblance to what was stated in the prophecy, but most of the details of the pronouncement do not match the details of the historical accounts which are alleged to be fulfillments of these pronouncements.
 
Upvote 0

Biblewriter

Senior Member
Site Supporter
May 15, 2005
11,935
1,498
Ocala, Florida
Visit site
✟531,725.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
You have repeatedly said Dan 11:5-35 are detailed accounts. I agree with you. What about Dan 11:2? How many years does that cover?
Which power is introduced in Dan 11:30?

Roughly 90 years were involved in verse 2, but that is not significant. What is significant is that this statement is precisely accurate, and it happened exactly as stated. The fourth king of Persia was the exceedingly wealthy Xerxes I, son of Darius, who stirred up all against the realm of Greece, Then the third verse skips over about 130 years to Alexander the Great.

I always say such things as “approximately,” or “about,” because, having devoted around forty years to a detailed personal study of the what the ancients actually wrote, (as opposed to simply rreading what modern historians think,) I have very little confidence in the dates assigned to various historic events. For although there is generally a fair amount of agreement among the ancient sources about the events themselves, there is very little agreement about when they happened.

Another difficulty with the standard interpretation of dan 11:31 is Matthew 24:15. Did Jesus refer to the abomination of desolation as past or future? Clearly Jesus put that in the future, and how did the disciples respond to Jesus' warning of Matt 24:15? They fled in 70AD when the Romans surrounded Jerusalem. So the church from 30 AD to 70 AD somehow linked the prophecy of Dan 11 with the Roman destruction of Jerusalem. How could that be? Lucky you weren't there to tell them how wrong they were. I guess Jesus broke your rules of interpretation too.

In Daniel 9:27 the "prince who is to come" will make a seven year covenant with “many,” which appears to mean the people of Judah. But Isaiah 28:18 warns them that "Your covenant with death will be annulled, And your agreement with Sheol will not stand;" How? The Lord says "But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate." (Daniel 9:27) We also read of "the transgression of desolation" in Daniel 8:13 and of "the abomination of desolation" in Daniel 12:11. These passages all seem to refer to the time when "the man of sin... the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, ... sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4)

This term "the abomination of desolation" is also found in some English translations of Daniel 11:31. But the Hebrew word translated desolation in this verse is “meshomem.” This word form literally means “desolator,” not “desolation.” The form of this word which means “desolation” is “shomem.” This form was used in both Daniel 8:13 and Daniel 12:11. As these are both forms of the Hebrew word “shamem,” Strong's Hebrew Dictionary lists them both under the same index number (8074). But such slight variations are significant in Bible prophecy. Daniel 11:31 refers to a different event than the one in Daniel 8:13 and 12:11.

Daniel 11:21-32 describes the actions of the Seleucid king Antiochus Epiphanes. History says this "vile person" (Daniel 11:21) desecrated the altar with the sacrifice of a pig. Verse 31 literally calls this “the abomination of the desolator.” But Daniel 8:13 and 12:11 refer to an event which was still future when our Lord spoke of it approximately two hundred years after the time of Antiochus Epiphanes. Jesus called it "the ‘abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet." (Matthew 24:15)

You are like many Jews in the first century who were so locked in to how they thought the prophecies about messiah should be fulfilled that they failed to recognise Him when he came. You have read many books about prophecy but have you ever asked the author what He meant? He may surprise you. I know I was surprised and amazed when I asked Him to show me something fresh, because I had read many books too. I knew everything our church taught about prophecy. One of His replies to my prayer about Rev 9 was the August 1969 National Geographic which had a report about the 67-68 plague in North Africa. The maps and quotes in that article pointed straight to Islam.

Actually, my doctrine comes from the word of God, not from the words of men. I have found some very old teachers very helpful in understanding it, including some that wrote as long ago as plus or minus twenty years from the year 200. But I have seen very little that is even helpful that has been written later than the first few years of the twentieth century.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Sab

Member
Sep 18, 2017
23
2
66
Hobart
✟8,848.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Roughly 90 years were involved in verse 2, but that is not significant. What is significant is that this statement is precisely accurate, and it happened exactly as stated. The fourth king of Persia was the exceedingly wealthy Xerxes I, son of Darius, who stirred up all against the realm of Greece, Then the third verse skips over about 130 years to Alexander the Great.
So... Dan 11:1-4 covers a few centuries and skips 130 years, then verses 5-35 are detailed which completely messes up your theory. Daniel must not have followed that rule you spoke about. Yet my suggestion that verses 35-45 also cover centuries and skip centuries is met with derision even though the same telescoping of events is used in the first five verses of the chapter.
 
Upvote 0