A Mosque in Stornoway, Scotland.

[pawnraider]

The first (and hopefully only) mosque may be appearing in Stornoway. The article presents what I believe is everyone's concerns when a new mosque appears.

 

[JackRT]

We stress that we have nothing against individual Muslims, least of all any who have been forced to flee their homelands because of persecution and suffering. Our desire and prayer for those who have made their way to Scotland and other parts of the UK is that they would hear the gospel of Christ and find the way of salvation, coming to know the love, grace and forgiveness of God.

But in the meantime freedom of religion applies to these people as well. If they wish to have a centre of worship then I for one support them. I have never ever encountered a Muslim that was not gracious and open. Sadly, I have met quite a few such Christians. In 1772 my own people were driven from their crofts in the Hebredes (South Uist) by such people.

 

[Targaryen]

Your concerns maybe. But I love the "we have no issues against muslims but don't dare build a mosque" type nonsense. So very Christian in the approach. Rather then a loving witness, it's a subtle attempt to force conformity of your own beliefs on to others.

 

[pawnraider]

have never ever encountered a Muslim that was not gracious and open.

That's most likely because they're in the minority. If they were in the majority I'm sure the story would have been quite different.

 

[awitch]

From the article:

"Our main concern is with the religion of Islam itself. If a mosque ever opens, Islam will be able to promote itself in our midst through public worship, despite its beliefs and practices being alien to the religious convictions of the vast majority of our community. Islam is wholly inconsistent with the teaching of the Word of God in Holy Scripture, which is the only rule to direct us. It is opposed to the Christian religion as confessed by the Church historically since apostolic times, and as established by law in our land since the Reformation."

Oh noes! Not a different religion!

 

[Aryeh Jay]

There have been Muslims in the community for years and have caused no trouble. The Mosque is not going to be a new building but a modernized and refurbished existing structure. The building to be refurbished is already owned by the Muslima and has been for the last six years. The city approved the project.

It sounds like the only people afraid of the mosque is the Presbyterian Church and the unlikely prospect that they may lose some parishioners.


Mosque in Stornoway

Church hits out at 'most unwelcome' mosque on Lewis

 

[dzheremi]

I think we need to remember in all cases that if we live in free societies like Scotland, and are strong in our own witness, then Islam cannot really withstand the competition, so to speak.

I don't feel like I would be a very good Coptic Orthodox person if I did not at least acknowledge that I understand where concerns about the propagation of Islam come from; after all, at one point in the distant past, there would have been no mosques in Egypt, either, and knowing how the proliferation of the Islamic religion in that society has ever since that time thoroughly disadvantaged my brothers and sisters for doing nothing more than continuing to exist in the society that was entirely theirs to begin with, I cannot be in favor of more Islam in any sense, as though it is benign in its content just because it may have the right to be preached in a given society. I do not want to live as a footstool of the 'global ummah' of an openly hostile, violent, and evil religion that specifically wants me to live as a second class citizen and see that as a privilege (which it is, relative to, say, the position afforded to those of awitch's faith; that's how sick Islam is, as a religion and political ideology), and I don't want anyone else to have to live that way, either.

All that said, I can't help but think how much less we'd be seeing statements of concern like this one if we instead focused the majority of our concern on shoring up our own people and making a public case for why life is better in even nominally-Christian or post-Christian societies than it is in any Muslim-majority or Muslim-minority-but-subservient society. Because it really is. I don't know of any person, even the most hardcore atheist (e.g., Sam Harris) who does not now recognize that.

And wouldn't that be better, as Islam does nothing but show itself completely incapable of being treated just like any other religion on a daily basis (since of course it's not meant to be; it's meant to dominate over all other religions both in the temporal arena and cosmically)? What needs to be done is that we foster the kinds of societies where we can have these kinds of conversations about the threat of Islam as an expansionist political system without being entangled in the idea that this is off limits because we're talking about someone's religion (not only that, but the religion of poor, put-upon arch brown people, as the popular conception would have it). Nobody uses this kind of ill logic to leave inroads to Christian theocracy in any Western society (thanks be to the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit -- the ONE God), so it ought not be tolerated from those who knowingly or unknowingly argue for Islam, either.

If Islam really is just "another religion", then it ought to be fine to both let them have a mosque and to point out any problems that may come from that, should we have the political will and courage to actually treat Islam like we already do any other religion: something capable being the subject of honest, reasoned criticism based on an analysis of its primary texts, histories, various philosophical movements, etc., and how these shape the beliefs and actions of the people who subscribe to the religion, both collectively and individually.

 

[Eryk]

Paranoia leads to hate and violence against the innocent. When you terrorize people who aren't terrorists, you're the terrorist.

Fear, white resentment, nativism - none of these things will expand Christianity in the UK. These things are the opposite of winsome. Just love people! Only the compassionate feel safe, because they don't know what an enemy is. Do we have to learn basic religious principles?

The Sermon on the Mount was preached when Israel was under foreign occupation. The times are always propitious for the peacemakers and the meek.

 

[pawnraider]

There have been Muslims in the community for years and have caused no trouble.

Yet.

 

[Targaryen]

There have been Muslims in the community for years and have caused no trouble.

Yet.

Oh dear...your true colors are beginning to show now.

 

[pawnraider]

Oh dear...your true colors are beginning to show now.

Wasn't trying to hide them.

Koran 9:5.

 

[dzheremi]

Yet.

Now this I can't agree with. It is like the allegation of the Islamists in Egypt or Turkey that the Christians are obviously up to something, so therefore there must be pre-emptive discrimination against them in building or retaining houses of worship. Again, as I've just written a few minutes ago, you can have serious reservations about the propagation of the religion and still allow them to have a place of worship, and do so in an environment where it is made clear that they are and will only ever be a constituent population of a larger whole, with no chance or hope of ever overtaking the society (i.e., no establishment of Shari'a or Shari'a-compliant laws, which is what everyone everywhere should say, without apology).

In such a context, I can't see any particular Muslim community posing much of a threat, and to the extent that they still might be (because I honestly do not believe that you can turn the Qur'an or the hadith collections or any other primary Islamic source into something completely peaceful without essentially disregarding their content or doing a spectacular amount of violence to Islamic history itself -- the fatuhat bearing witness), at least you'd have a way to appropriately appraise the problem without entangling people who have nothing to do with that other than maybe coming from the same background or religion, or sticking your head in the sand about the true nature of the problem.

Think about it this way: In Egypt during the long period of the Muslim Brotherhood's banning, they still attracted members and solidified in their Islamically-principled resistance to Egyptian society, to the point that when they were finally allowed to come up to the light again, they were effectively the only real opposition that could succeed Mubarak. Is that really what you want -- a situation in which the Islamists say "Islam is oppressed here" and they are right? (note: I don't want to even slightly say that the MB is the sole legitimate expresson of Islam in an Egyptian context, or that all Muslims are therefore in agreement with the MB, but in the context of the current conversation the distinction that should be made is one of banning the practice of a religion because of the dangers associated with it, which has the effect of attracting people to it, as is the case with the MB for a certain type of Muslim.)

I still think it better to take a more manageable risk, especially as this would be in line with Western values of pluralism that are completely absent from any society in which Islam holds sway.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Yet.

What diabolical acts do you think the tiny community is planning that specifically require a mosque to carry out?

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Wasn't trying to hide them.

Koran 9:5.

Are you making the claim that Christianity is an Idolatrous or Polytheistic faith?

 

[Targaryen]

Wasn't trying to hide them.

Koran 9:5.

9:5 And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
9:6 And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah. Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know.
9:7 How can there be for the polytheists a treaty in the sight of Allah and with His Messenger, except for those with whom you made a treaty at al-Masjid al-Haram? So as long as they are upright toward you, be upright toward them. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].

Funny, it seems the Qu'ran speaks about mercy in the very next verse of that surah. How odd.

 

[pawnraider]

What diabolical acts do you think the tiny community is planning that specifically require a mosque to carry out?

What makes you think it requires a mosque to do so?

 

[pawnraider]

Are you making the claim that Christianity is an Idolatrous or Polytheistic faith?

Obviously not. But then I'm sure you already know how this rabbit trail will end so do you really want to go there?

 

[dzheremi]

What makes you think it requires a mosque to do so?

Um...aren't you shooting yourself in the foot here? If it doesn't require a mosque (which it doesn't), then how can the mosque be such an object of heightened concern? In fact, I would think the exact opposite argument could be made, if you want to approach things from that view: let them have the mosque, because then there's a centralized place you can go to, inspect/monitor, or at least treat as a focal point for the community such that those who do not go to it despite it being available might more easily single themselves out as all the more suspicious.

 

[pawnraider]

Um...aren't you shooting yourself in the foot here? If it doesn't require a mosque (which it doesn't), then how can the mosque be such an object of heightened concern? In fact, I would think the exact opposite argument could be made, if you want to approach things from that view: let them have the mosque, because then there's a centralized place you can go to, inspect/monitor, or at least treat as a focal point for the community such that those who do not go to it despite it being available might more easily single themselves out as all the more suspicious.

You seem to be a reasonably intelligent person to which I'm rather surprised that you would ask such questions since I'm sure you must already know the answers. However, if you insist that I answer them then I will.

 

[dzheremi]

It's not that I don't see how potential problems could arise. I just don't see how one mosque is in itself a problem to you if you also recognize that the presence of the mosque is not integral to terrorism. I suppose you could make the case in certain specific examples, e.g., the Finsbury Park mosque, due to the links of its leaders to terrorism, but again you'd have to do so in a context in which the monitoring of the preaching is helped by the presence of the mosque (so that the problem would then be a lack of due diligence done about what was being preached there; in other words, had they met in the back of a supermarket or in a pool hall something, there would still be the same problem, but it would be even more diffuse).