How Do Calvinists Explain These Verses in the Story of Jonah?

[Hammster]

The Bible has to be read as a whole.

"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." (Matthew 11:28).

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name." (John 1:12).

"That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love," (Ephesians 3:17).

"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." (Revelation 3:20).

"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." (John 14:23).

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts of the Apostles 2:38).

"And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart." (Jeremiah 29:13).

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." (Revelation 22:17).

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6).

"He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." (1 John 5:12).


...

So you have nothing? I was hoping for an answer.

 

[TaylorSexton]

Time does not change anything. Who is to say the early Theologians were any more right or correct? However, the reality of the matter is that Calvinism is just as much of a wrong way of thinking back in it's creation with John Calvin as it is now.

Also, I am not dealing with dead Calvinistic theologians. I am dealing with Calvinists today. So I deal with how people believe today. For I cannot argue with the error of someone who is dead and gone.

I mean, do you disagree with the five points of Calvinism as presented by the recent website I provided? What makes you think John Calvin was any more correct in his theology than his modern day followers?

I never said older is better, or that a dead theologian is necessarily more correct than some blogger today. I am simply saying that it is better scholarship to go to primary source texts and deal with those before anything else, especially when those source texts are seen as foundational for the theological position you are so desperately interested in refuting. That's how one does good historical theology, plain and simple.

But, as I said, I think I know why you refuse to do this. That's at least part of the reason why place like Christian Forums exists, so uninformed people can come here and dialogue with more uninformed people, get in fights, cause division, all the while never coming to a right understanding of the stuff about which they are talking, because they refuse to do the hard work.

Oh, well. Have it your way.

Bye.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

From first to last the Bible is full of people whom God predestines to fulfil his purposes, up to, and not excluding, Judas Iscariot. Without his betrayal of Jesus, there would have been no crucifixion, no ressurection and no salvation. Do you think God left that to chance? I don't think so. But Judas is not going to be winning any gold medals for his treachury, come the Last Judgement; even though his role in history had been preordained by God.

You are confusing God's foreknowledge with Calvinism's Unconditional Election.

1 Peter 1:1-2 says God elects according to His foreknowledge. So this is condtional election and not unconditional election. The Bible wins.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I never said older is better, or that a dead theologian is necessarily more correct than some blogger today. I am simply saying that it is better scholarship to go to primary source texts and deal with those before anything else, especially when those source texts are seen as foundational for the theological position you are so desperately interested in refuting. That's how one does good historical theology, plain and simple.

But, as I said, I think I know why you refuse to do this. That's at least part of the reason why place like Christian Forums exists, so uninformed people can come here and dialogue with more uninformed people, get in fights, cause division, all the while never coming to a right understanding of the stuff about which they are talking, because they refuse to do the hard work.

Oh, well. Have it your way.

Bye.

But beliefs evolve and I am not dealing with the core beliefs of where it started. I deal with people as they exist today. You want me to go to some ancient past beliefs to see where their belief evolved from. No thank you. My study is the Bible and not what men think the Bible says that I believe is not only unbiblical but unethical.

But believe whatever you like.

I do not have to conform to your way of thinking.
I am here to speak the truth of God's Word in love and in truth.
Let's agree to disagree.

May God bless you;
And may you please be well.


....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So you have nothing? I was hoping for an answer.

I have shown you verses that I believe show this... yes.
If you feel they do not say that, then you are free to believe otherwise.
But Jesus says "Come to me." That is pretty obvious He is inviting a person.
But you can change that if you like and read it a bunch of different ways.
My suggestion is to ask God to show you the truth on this matter and He will reveal it to you through the Scriptures. Sometimes the Word of God does not always hit us over the head point blank with things God wants to tell us.

For example: You see Calvinism in the Scriptures, and yet, I do not see that WHATSOEVER in God's Word. Maybe it is best we just agree to disagree and move on, my friend.


...

 

[lesliedellow]

You are confusing God's foreknowledge with Calvinism's Unconditional Election.

1 Peter 1:1-2 says God elects according to His foreknowledge. So this is condtional election and not unconditional election. The Bible wins.


...

I'm not confusing anything with anything. If God intends that his plans are fulfilled, then he will bring about the means as well as the ends.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I'm not confusing anything with anything. If God intends that his plans are fulfilled, then he will bring about the means as well as the ends.

I believe God is going to bring in the End, too. But not in the way Calvinists suggest.
Stop and think for a moment. Why on Earth would there even be a judgment if salvation and damnation was entirely out of our hands? That would be like having a judgment for animals, or robots, etc. It makes no sense. It it totally illogical. Also, do you not realize that true love exists based on both parties agreeing to love one another of their own free will? For if a woman was brainwashed to love a man, we would know that this was not true love but a forced love. This is why God gives us free will to choose Him or to reject Him in this life. Then there is the whole, God saves people (by His forced say so) and He yet He only saves a few when He actually has the power to save everyone (But simply does not do so). This is not loving and good. If God forced saved some people to be saved (and has power to save all people the same way), it would not be loving and good of God to do this. It would be like a coast guard saving 5 people lost at sea but they did not save you and your children all because they didn't feel like it. This would be morally wrong of them to do such a thing.

Then again, some Calvinists do not have a problem with this. They think God is not subject to "my morality." But the problem is: There is no such thing as "my morality"; This is common basic morality that everyone should know. The fact that they do not see it troubles me greatly.


...

 

[Hammster]

Robots. Sure sign someone is clueless about what Reformed Theology teaches.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Robots. Sure sign someone is clueless about what Reformed Theology teaches.

Not at all. Your not getting what I said. Unconditional Election and Limited Atonement (put together) is about God electing or choosing some to be saved based on no condition of the person whatsoever. God decides who is saved and man's free will does not play a part in choosing God or not for salvation. God also chooses some to be damned, as well. This would be like a man creating a robot with the program to kill and then he later puts the robot on trial for killing. The robot had no other choice but to kill. Again, this is like Calvinism. God makes men to be totally depraved and unable to choose Him and be good through Him. Yet, God is going to judge them for something they had no real control over. They were made to sin. Just as wolf was made to howl at the moon. Can God really condemn anyone for something they had no control over? Unconditional Election / Limited Atonement would be like a man rewarding a woman for her good behavior in the fact that he brainwashed her to love him. That is not what God does. God does not brainwash people to love Him. Neither does God create totally depraved men that cannot choose Him. It would be a violation of basic morality for God to do such things.

 

[Hammster]

Not at all. Your not getting what I said. Unconditional Election and Limited Atonement (put together) is about God electing or choosing some to be saved based on no condition of the person whatsoever. God decides who is saved and man's free will does not play a part in choosing God or not for salvation. God also chooses some to be damned, as well. This would be like a man creating a robot with the program to kill and then he later puts the robot on trial for killing. The robot had no other choice but to kill. Again, this is like Calvinism. God makes men to be totally depraved and unable to choose Him and be good through Him. Yet, God is going to judge them for something they had no real control over. They were made to sin. Just as wolf was made to howl at the moon. Can God really condemn anyone for something they had no control over? Unconditional Election / Limited Atonement would be like a man rewarding a woman for her good behavior in the fact that he brainwashed her to love him. That is not what God does. God does not brainwash people to love Him. Neither does God create totally depraved men that cannot choose Him. It would be a violation of basic morality for God to do such things.

You said robots. That's a sure sign.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You said robots. That's a sure sign.

Are not those who are Totally Depraved like robots in the sense that they cannot do anything to accept God? They have no understanding of the things of God and they will always remain sinful. They are programmed or hardwired to sin. Robots who have no choice to make their own free will choice to accept the Lord. They are programmed to be Totally Depraved and God is going to judge them in the world of Calvinism.

 

[Hammster]

not those who are Totally Depraved like robots in the sense that they cannot do anything to accept God?

Those who are slaves to sin are robots, if you insist on using that language. But let's stick with the biblical language. They are slaves. The redeemed are freed to love God when they are regenerated.

Does your bible not mention those who are slaves to sin?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Those who are slaves to sin are robots, if you insist on using that language. But let's stick with the biblical language. They are slaves. The redeemed are freed to love God when they are regenerated.

Does your bible not mention those who are slaves to sin?

A person can be set free from being a slave to sin by choosing Jesus Christ. After they accept the Lord of their own free will, the Lord transforms their heart, and the Lord then works within them to be a slave to righteousness. But this is in harmony with our free will. For Paul says, "I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants (slaves) to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants (slaves) to righteousness unto holiness." (Romans 6:19). Paul is telling us what to do here. This is not some kind of forced regeneration going on. Paul says, "even so now yield your members slaves to righteousness unto holiness." Paul is telling us what to do. Even in John 8, Jesus mocked the Pharisees by saying, "he that sins is a slave to sin." Jesus is saying that if you sin, it will be your master. He is not saying you cannot break free. 1 John 3:8 says he that commits sin is of the devil. 1 John 2:29 says he that is born again works righteousness. So are we to assume that all Calvinists are walking perfectly in righteousness or keeping God's moral laws? I believe a saint can walk with God perfectly in time but this only by God's power working in them. The proof is that a believer can retreat into a forest for two weeks with a Bible and just pray and study God's Word with no outside sinful distractions. We are to yield ourselves unto God and submit to Him and resist the devil. For God does not tempt us what we are not able to bear. However, our struggle with sin in this life and seeking to overcome it is proof that we are not mindless brainwashed love slaves of God anymore than we were slaves to sin in the fact that we could not change our situation by choosing Jesus Christ. Being a slave to something does not mean you cannot break away from not being a slave to that thing. People can be addicted to drugs and alcohol. They can be slaves to these addictions. But that does not mean they cannot conquer these things; Especially with Jesus.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Scripture talks about this concept some more.

"You will be accepted if you do what is right. But if you refuse to do what is right, then watch out! Sin is crouching at the door, eager to control you. But you must subdue it and be its master." (Genesis 4:7) (NLT).

"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him." (Genesis 4:7). (KJV).

 

[lesliedellow]

Stop and think for a moment. Why on Earth would there even be a judgment if salvation and damnation was entirely out of our hands?

You will be judged for your sin. Of course salvation is out of your hands. What do you think Christ's sacrifice was all about, if you could save yourself?

That would be like having a judgment for animals, or robots, etc. It makes no sense. It it totally illogical.

How is judgment and punishment for sin illogical?

Also, do you not realize that true love exists based on both parties agreeing to love one another of their own free will? For if a woman was brainwashed to love a man, we would know that this was not true love but a forced love.

Does a woman "force" you to fall in love by being attractive to you? That is all God does when he remakes your heart. The alternative is for him to leave you in rebellion, and saying, "I am not going to have any damn Lord reigning over me."

This is why God gives us free will to choose Him or to reject Him in this life.

Oh you have free will alright. And, as a fallen creature you would use it to reject him if he did not reform your heart.

Then there is the whole, God saves people (by His forced say so) and He yet He only saves a few when He actually has the power to save everyone (But simply does not do so). This is not loving and good.

God is sovereignly free to bestow his love wherever he wants, and to deliver just punishment wherever he wants:

Romans 9:19-24 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

If God forced saved some people to be saved (and has power to save all people the same way), it would not be loving and good of God to do this. It would be like a coast guard saving 5 people lost at sea but they did not save you and your children all because they didn't feel like it. This would be morally wrong of them to do such a thing.

So you think you have the right to sit in judgment upon God? If so, your understanding of who is in the dock, and who sits in judgment, is precisely the wrong way around.

Then again, some Calvinists do not have a problem with this. They think God is not subject to "my morality." But the problem is: There is no such thing as "my morality"; This is common basic morality that everyone should know. The fact that they do not see it troubles me greatly.

And who is the lawgiver whom even God himself is subject to? You?

 

[Hammster]

A person can be set free from being a slave to sin by choosing Jesus Christ. After they accept the Lord of their own free will, the Lord transforms their heart, and the Lord then works within them to be a slave to righteousness. But this is in harmony with our free will. For Paul says, "I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants (slaves) to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants (slaves) to righteousness unto holiness." (Romans 6:19). Paul is telling us what to do here. This is not some kind of forced regeneration going on. Paul says, "even so now yield your members slaves to righteousness unto holiness." Paul is telling us what to do. Even in John 8, Jesus mocked the Pharisees by saying, "he that sins is a slave to sin." Jesus is saying that if you sin, it will be your master. He is not saying you cannot break free. 1 John 3:8 says he that commits sin is of the devil. 1 John 2:29 says he that is born again works righteousness. So are we to assume that all Calvinists are walking perfectly in righteousness or keeping God's moral laws? I believe a saint can walk with God perfectly in time but this only by God's power working in them. The proof is that a believer can retreat into a forest for two weeks with a Bible and just pray and study God's Word with no outside sinful distractions. We are to yield ourselves unto God and submit to Him and resist the devil. For God does not tempt us what we are not able to bear. However, our struggle with sin in this life and seeking to overcome it is proof that we are not mindless brainwashed love slaves of God anymore than we were slaves to sin in the fact that we could not change our situation by choosing Jesus Christ. Being a slave to something does not mean you cannot break away from not being a slave to that thing. People can be addicted to drugs and alcohol. They can be slaves to these addictions. But that does not mean they cannot conquer these things; Especially with Jesus.

They are slaves to sin. They won't "accept" Jesus (an unbiblical concept to begin with).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

They are slaves to sin. They won't "accept" Jesus (an unbiblical concept to begin with).

But you are ignoring verse 19. In Romans 6, Paul is talking to believers in regards to being either a slave to sin or a slave to righreousness. He is telling them in verse 19 that they should yield their members (your body) slaves to righteousness unto holiness. Paul is telling you these believers to be a slave to righteousness. This is something you have to do. It is not automatically done for you by God.

"I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness." (Romans 6:19).

The first half of the verse is Paul talking about how they once used to yield their members as slaves to iniquity (sin) and now Paul is telling them to yield their members as slaves to righteousness. Paul is writing to believers here and not unbelievers.

 

[Hammster]

But you are ignoring verse 19. In Romans 6, Paul is talking to believers in regards to being either a slave to sin or a slave to righreousness. He is telling them in verse 19 that they should yield their members (your body) slaves to righteousness unto holiness. Paul is telling you these believers to be a slave to righteousness. This is something you have to do. It is not automatically done for you by God.

"I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness." (Romans 6:19).

The first half of the verse is Paul talking about how they once used to yield their members as slaves to iniquity (sin) and now Paul is telling them to yield their members as slaves to righteousness. Paul is writing to believers here and not unbelievers.

Yes, he's talking to the regenerated and redeemed.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You will be judged for your sin. Of course salvation is out of your hands. What do you think Christ's sacrifice was all about, if you could save yourself?




How is judgment and punishment for sin illogical?



Does a woman "force" you to fall in love by being attractive to you? That is all God does when he remakes your heart. The alternative is for him to leave you in rebellion, and saying, "I am not going to have any damn Lord reigning over me."



Oh you have free will alright. And, as a fallen creature you would use it to reject him if he did not reform your heart.



God is sovereignly free to bestow his love wherever he wants, and to deliver just punishment wherever he wants:

Romans 9:19-24 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?



So you think you have the right to sit in judgment upon God? If so, your understanding of who is in the dock, and who sits in judgment, is precisely the wrong way around.



And who is the lawgiver whom even God himself is subject to? You?

By your fowl use of language in regards to God (in passing conversation) and your unwillingness to see the moral argument I presented, it is best we do not talk from here on out. As for your false claims against me in reference to God: I also do not believe Calvinism is taught in Scripture. So I do not believe God operates in a Calvinistic way as you falsely assume. So your judgment does not apply. For it is not biblical.

Anyways, may the Lord's love shine upon you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, he's talking to the regenerated and redeemed.

But that does not help you. It works against what you believe here because Paul is telling believers to be slaves to righteousness. They are not automatically slaves to righteousness after coming to Christ anymore than a person is a slave to sin (in the Calvinistic sense) whereby they cannot make a choice to be set free by choosing Jesus Christ. Again, you have to CHOOSE to be a slave to righteousness. We were not slaves to sin as a baby. Babies really do not sin. Babies who die go to be with the Lord.