The worst thing about Calvinism

[Bible Highlighter]

It could be argued that God is immoral to not save all if, as you say, "He has the power to save them all".

Yes, it would be immoral of God to not save nobody if He had the power to save them and yet He simply chose not to save them. God's very nature is loving and good and He is compelled to save those who are seeking to repent and turn to Him and His good ways.

On the flipside: While Univeralism is not biblical, it does not have any problems morally that I am aware of except that true love would not exist in this universe (besides God). God creates certain animals that are just automatically loving creatures even today. Before the fall all animals were loving and good. For these animals have a built in nature to love.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

God chooses the save based on the counsel of His will. That He has not given any further info is not for me to complain about, or ponder over. He does what He pleases.

So the way God chooses some to be saved and others to be damned is simply a mystery? I don't believe that is what the Scriptures teach at all. John 3:16 is one verse for starters. Why tell us to believe or believe not with each having their own unique consequences if believing is something that a Christian will do automatically as a part of some kind of regeneration? It makes no sense. Why would Jesus marvel at the lack of people's faith if it was predetermined by God? (Mark 6:6). He would just consider it to be God's divine will and not give the matter another thought. Also, Jesus marvels at one person who has great faith, too (Matthew 8:10). Again, Jesus is God. He should not marvel at what God the Father does because He is one with the Father. Did Jesus marvel over the miracles He performed? Surely not. Jesus is impressed with the individuals here.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I would say that we are free agents. In other words, we can choose to do or not do. But what we cannot do is go against our nature.

So the unregenerate could chose to follow Christ, but why would he? Scripture states he wants nothing to do with Him. Those in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 8:8 is not a case for Total Inabilty. That is pulling that verse out of context. The chapter supports free will because it is telling the believer there are consequences good or bad spiritually for them by their actions today.

Verse 13 says,

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.." (Romans 8:13).

For if we we we we we ... live after the flesh, ye shall die. But IF... IF... IF ye throught the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. This is talking about spiritual life and death here. Romans 8:1 sets the theme.

Also, there are no IFs in Calvinism.

If Calvinism was true, then verse 13 would read like this:

For you will not live after the flesh and die, you are the elect, force regenerated by God whereby you will mortify the deeds of the body. (Romans 8:13).


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I have. For instance, I've said that everything God does is morally correct. That's as unambiguous as you can get. Yet somehow, you've twisted that into me saying that God could sin if He wanted to.

So I have no problems defending my views. You just don't take what I say at face value if it runs up against your presupposed narratives.

I was led to believe by you that God could do evil because you said God does whatever He pleases when I pushed you on the moral issue of His choosing some to be saved and others to not be saved (Even though He has the power to save them all).

There is no point in having this discussion anymore if you are not going to answer the moral issue of how God saves some and yet has the power to save them all if He wanted to. You keep insisting this is my personal morality. But it is not. If a coast guard left you and your son at sea and saved five other people (when he could have saved you all), you would consider that morally wrong of the coast guard to do that. But because we are all of a sudden talking about God, somehow that changes things. But it really doesn't.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In fact, most of the Bible does not sound Calvinistic in any way. It sounds like... you do this ... good happens.... and you do this... and bad happens to you spiritually. Try doing a study on the commands in the New Testament. These are instructions to us. These instructions would be useless if God is into force regenerating us to do His will or to be a certain way.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Do you think Calvinists are determinists?

In his treatise The eternal predestination of God, Calvin explicitly denied that Adam in the Fall was exercising his will in contradiction to the divine will. Here, he makes a distinction between God as he appears to us, and God as he really is. His will (as we understand it) may be frustrated from time to time, but the true situation is that God's "decreeing will" or "overruling omnipotence" is always supreme. Now, Calvin does believe that Adam had a will! Adam's guilt comes from the way that his will was inclined in that moment, and the subsequent action (even though Calvin says he had no real power to will or act otherwise). The view he develops is essentially that our will is not truly a free will - it is not independent of God - though it seems real to us. We certainly do not achieve salvation on our own, nor even by joint action with God: it's all him.

There are several problems here which Calvin does not adequately resolve (and of which he is aware). He is taking an extreme position, and I think at some points he overreaches rhetorically. In particular, there's a conflict between Calvin's view of God's sovereignty, and his view of our salvation, that hinges on whether we are truly morally responsible for evil that God "causes". He admits himself that he has no answer to this:

But how it was that God, by His foreknowledge and decree, ordained what should take place in Adam, and yet so ordained it without His being Himself in the least a participator of the fault, or being at all the author or the approver of the transgression; how this was, I repeat, is a secret manifestly far too deep to be penetrated by any stretch of human intellect. Herein, therefore, I am not ashamed to confess my utter ignorance. And far be it from anyone of the faithful to be ashamed to confess his ignorance of that which the Lord God has wholly enveloped in the blaze of His own inaccessible light!

Source:
Would Calvinists classify themselves as determinists?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Also, if God predetermines some to be saved and others not to be saved, then preaching and living holy really do does not matter. For if one has not been elected, then one could be thinking they are living for God when in reality, they are only deceiving themselves. But God says we are to seek the Lord with all our heart and we will find Him.

"And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart." (Jeremiah 29:13).

Verses like this have to be butchered or changed in the world of Calvinism.
For there is no such thing about finding God if you seek for Him with all your heart in the world of Calvinism.


...

 

[ClementofA]

I would say that we are free agents. In other words, we can choose to do or not do. But what we cannot do is go against our nature.

So the unregenerate could chose to follow Christ, but why would he? Scripture states he wants nothing to do with Him. Those in the flesh cannot please God.

How could he "choose to follow Christ" while unregenerate, yet at the same time "want nothing to do with Him" & be "in the flesh" that "cannot please God"?

 

[ClementofA]

But if God knows if a person is going to reject Him only living 20 years, then God knows they are going to reject Him for all eternity.

The second statement does not necessarily logically follow from the first. It's also anti-scriptural.

You are saying that the chances should be 50%. But we are not talking about a random coin toss here. We are talking about free willed human emotional beings (that can be influenced) who are deciding to either follow sin (Which is enticing) or God which is the harder path for them to take (But more rewarding).

Given continual freewill opportunities to follow God, it is mathematically impossible any would reject God's love for eternity. God's love does not have an expiry date like a carton of milk. You claim the Calvinist God is unloving, but should consider how unloving is your own characterization of Him.

I do not believe in Eternal Conscious Torment. I believe in Dualistic Conditional Immortality. This is the view that "hell" is a real and literal place where the wicked reside, but after the Judgment, the wicked will then be punished for their sins for a set amount of time (in proportion to their sin) and then they will be destroyed or erased from existence by the Lake of Fire.

Here again your characterization of God makes Him unloving. He sadistically causes the wicked to suffer punishment when He could instead annihilate them & spare them that punishment "after the Judgement". Also where are they before the judgement? Suffering in a "hell" described in Lk.16:19-31?

 

[Hammster]

So the way God chooses some to be saved and others to be damned is simply a mystery? I don't believe that is what the Scriptures teach at all. John 3:16 is one verse for starters. Why tell us to believe or believe not with each having their own unique consequences if believing is something that a Christian will do automatically as a part of some kind of regeneration? It makes no sense. Why would Jesus marvel at the lack of people's faith if it was predetermined by God? (Mark 6:6). He would just consider it to be God's divine will and not give the matter another thought. Also, Jesus marvels at one person who has great faith, too (Matthew 8:10). Again, Jesus is God. He should not marvel at what God the Father does because He is one with the Father. Did Jesus marvel over the miracles He performed? Surely not. Jesus is impressed with the individuals here.


...

Are you saying that God isn't omniscient?

Oh, and John 3:16 isn't a command.

 

[Hammster]

Romans 8:8 is not a case for Total Inabilty. That is pulling that verse out of context. The chapter supports free will because it is telling the believer there are consequences good or bad spiritually for them by their actions today.

Verse 13 says,

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.." (Romans 8:13).

For if we we we we we ... live after the flesh, ye shall die. But IF... IF... IF ye throught the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. This is talking about spiritual life and death here. Romans 8:1 sets the theme.

Also, there are no IFs in Calvinism.

If Calvinism was true, then verse 13 would read like this:

For you will not live after the flesh and die, you are the elect, force regenerated by God whereby you will mortify the deeds of the body. (Romans 8:13).


...

If a believer cannot please God in the flesh, how much more so for an unbeliever.

 

[Hammster]

I was led to believe by you that God could do evil because you I said God does whatever He pleases when I pushed you on the moral issue of His choosing some to be saved and others to not be saved (Even though He has the power to save them all).

There is no point in having this discussion anymore if you are not going to answer the moral issue of how God saves some and yet has the power to save them all if He wanted to. You keep insisting this is my personal morality. But it is not. If a coast guard left you and your son at sea and saved five other people (when he could have saved you all), you would consider that morally wrong of the coast guard to do that. But because we are all of a sudden talking about God, somehow that changes things. But it really doesn't.


...

I never led you to believe anything other than what I've said. It's you that keeps misconstruing almost everything I've said because you keep filtering everything through your presuppositions of Calvinism. So when I said God does what He pleases, I meant exactly that.

As to the Coast Guard, yes, they would be immoral if they left me and my son to drown. Why? Because they are tasked with saving me. It's their job. It's their obligation.

God isn't obligated to save anyone. His justice demands that everyone be punished. However, out of mercy He has chosen to save some. The only obligation I can see is that He must save His sheep. For Him to not save one of His, or to let one get away (which you believe He does) would make Him a lousy Shepherd who cannot take care of His own.

Now, Jason, you have a choice. You can either respond to what I actually said, or you can continue to follow your pattern of responding to half of what I said and filling in the blanks with your presuppositions.

 

[Hammster]

In fact, most of the Bible does not sound Calvinistic in any way. It sounds like... you do this ... good happens.... and you do this... and bad happens to you spiritually. Try doing a study on the commands in the New Testament. These are instructions to us. These instructions would be useless if God is into force regenerating us to do His will or to be a certain way.


...

I'm curious. What do you think happens at regeneration? What can a saved person do that an unsaved person can not?

 

[Hammster]

Also, if God predetermines some to be saved and others not to be saved, then preaching and living holy really do does not matter. For if one has not been elected, then one could be thinking they are living for God when in reality, they are only deceiving themselves. But God says we are to seek the Lord with all our heart and we will find Him.

"And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart." (Jeremiah 29:13).

Verses like this have to be butchered or changed in the world of Calvinism.
For there is no such thing about finding God if you seek for Him with all your heart in the world of Calvinism.


...

Everything you said is incorrect. But you aren't interested in a discussion, so I'll leave it at that.

 

[Hammster]

How could he "choose to follow Christ" while unregenerate, yet at the same time "want nothing to do with Him" & be "in the flesh" that "cannot please God"?

Do you believe there are Tate's amongst the wheat?

 

[Sea Horse]

God foreknowledge does not mean that you don't have free will , but insteed of waiting your whole life he knows what you will and would choose in every instance and in every situation . Love without free will is impossible aswell , and Jesus told us in John 14:15 that if we love him we should keep his commandments , so if we don't love him we don't keep his commandments , we have free will to decide .

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But if God knows if a person is going to reject Him only living 20 years, then God knows they are going to reject Him for all eternity.

The second statement does not necessarily logically follow from the first. It's also anti-scriptural.

Not true.

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9).

3 "God our Savior.
4 He wants all people to be saved and to learn the truth." (1 Timothy 2:3-4) (GWT).

"Yet the LORD longs to be gracious to you; therefore he will rise up to show you compassion. For the LORD is a God of justice. Blessed are all who wait for him!." (Isaiah 30:18). (NIV).

"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Timothy 2:19).

So there is no such thing as those who perish that could be his if they were just given more time to repent. Those who are "his" are those in whom God knows their heart and if they are truly seeking Him correctly or not or if they are trying to justify their sin or their own pride in some way.

But you are seriously mistaken here. The Scriptures say,

God is fair and just (Psalms 25:8) (MSG).

Given continual freewill opportunities to follow God, it is mathematically impossible any would reject God's love for eternity.

No. People can be stubborn in their ways and backslide or do some kind of future evil. Not everyone wants to be pure of heart and true and honest and good and follow God for all time. God knows who are his is what the Bible says. There is no such thing as God has allowed those who are his to perish because He did not give them enough time to repent. That is non-sense. We are not talking about a coin toss here. We are talking about human beings who have free will and who have emotions and who have their own motivations, etc.

God's love does not have an expiry date like a carton of milk.

So you believe in Univeralism?
I agree that God's love does not expire for people. But there are different types or degrees of love that comes from God. God sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. Job says this about man's days.

"Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass." (Job 14:5).

Then, once a person dies, then comes the Judgment.

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment." (Hebrews 9:27).

So in regards to the love of God in regards to salvation: There is an expiration date. But like I said, God knows who are his. There are no "his" being destroyed because they were not given enough time.

You claim the Calvinist God is unloving,

Yes, Calvinism is unloving because God would not save only a few if He has the power to force save all people (Which excludes any free will choice of any kind by the person). God is the one who decides randomly who is saved and leaves the rest to burn as if God was some kind of child playing with Gijoe figures with no real empathy towards them. The child could light some of his figures on fire, or place fire crackers on them, or pound them with a hammer, etc. as a form of amusement.

but should consider how unloving is your own characterization of Him.

In what way? I would be happy to clear up any misunderstandings you have (unlike those who hold to the Calvinistic position).

Here again your characterization of God makes Him unloving. He sadistically causes the wicked to suffer punishment when He could instead annihilate them & spare them that punishment "after the Judgement". Also where are they before the judgement? Suffering in a "hell" described in Lk.16:19-31?

Not sure you understood what I said before. I believe God will annihiate the wicked in the Lake of Fire. They will cease to exist. Be like smoke. Be no more. They will be erased from all time. Before they are destroyed both body and soul, they only will be punished in proportion to the sins they committed here upon this Earth. Fair justice. For it is not unloving for people to be punished for evil that they have done. If God did not punish evil or sin, then God would not really care about any real right and wrong. God's good ways truly matter to Him. For children who are not disciplined turned out to be spoiled. A society who is not punished properly for committing certain sins will just continue to keep doing them. If God did not punish the wicked, then that would mean God does not care about fair justice.

As for suffering in hell as described in Luke 16:19-31: I believe there are two possibilities in this real narrative here.

Possibility #1. The richman was tormented by the HEAT of the flame nearby him or in the great gulf fixed between him and Abraham.

Possibility #2. The flames in hell are not like normal flames in the real world that would cook your flesh like a steak whereby it would cause you to scream uncontrollably whereby any conversation would be nearly impossible. For if you tried to talk to a person engulfed in fire, I highly doubt you could have a normal conversation with them. They would be yelling too much to be able to talk with you.

Also, I believe the wicked go through long periods of sleep and they are awaken for special reasons, etc. So the wicked are not down in hell suffering for thousands of years consciously. They are conscious for certain moments or periods of time that are short. I believe this because God is into fair justice according to Luke 12:47-48.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If a believer cannot please God in the flesh, how much more so for an unbeliever.

But verse 13 says one will die spiritually if we (i.e. the reader who is a believer) is to live after the flesh vs. the alternative choice which is to live through the Spirit so as to mortify sin within one's life. (See Romans 8:13).

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," (Hebrews 10:26).

38 "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Hebrews 10:38-39).

Another problem I have with Calvinism is that it over-emphasizes it's teachings above the gospel. Calvinists are all about election this and these guys are saved by God's divine will and not by any free will choice, etc. More focus is placed on Calvinistic election and Calvinistic determinism then the good news of Jesus Christ.

Also, if a Calvinistic preacher were to say to a crowd of people that they repent and believe in Jesus and be saved, it would technically be a lie because not everyone can repent and believe in Jesus according to him. That would be like telling people to do something that is impossible like telling them that they can fly if they jumped off a bridge, etc.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Are you saying that God isn't omniscient?

I believe Scripture teaches that Jesus suppressed His Omniscience during His earthly ministry to be a "type of Adam" (Where Adam was also limited in knowledge at one time). This does not mean God the Father and the Holy Spirit did not reveal things to Him. This does not mean His powers were stripped from Him. God cannot cease to be who He is. Jesus was still the second person of the Godhead or the Trinity and His power is just a natural part of who He is as God.

If you are implying God knows the reason as to why some should be saved and some should be damned, then this does not sound like traditional Calvinism that says God does whatever He pleases. It does not sound like Calvinism that says God just does what He does and you have to just deal with it whether you like it or not. That is how this argument started. You are saying I was trying to force my morality onto the situation. Now, are you implying that there is morality attached to why God saves some and damns others? Is God looking ahead into the future and seeing what people will do if they are regenerated? You said before this is close but you did not exactly say.... "yes." You are throwing down the "mystery" card as if that solves anything. There is only one conclusion that this can go if God is truly moral and good.

Oh, and John 3:16 isn't a command.

Scripture breathes as a whole.

"Have faith in God.” (Mark 11:22).

“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.” (Acts of the Apostles 16:31). (cf 1 John 3:23).

“Believe the gospel” (Mark 1:15).

“But now commandeth all men everywhere to repent” (Acts of the Apostles 17:30).


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I never led you to believe anything other than what I've said. It's you that keeps misconstruing almost everything I've said because you keep filtering everything through your presuppositions of Calvinism. So when I said God does what He pleases, I meant exactly that.

Most Calvinists I have talked with will say God does what He pleases as in relation that morality does not come into the picture. I have talked with Calvinists who said that God creates darkness (evil). I have talked with Calvinists who believed God decreed sin (as if that was His divine will for us). When you say, "God does what he pleases" and you say no more, then this paints the wrong picture of God leading the reader to think God can do anything He wants (Which is contrary to His loving and good nature). In fact, I had to push you to say that God cannot act contrary to His good and loving nature when you should have clearly made this clear from the beginning. But you didn't do that.

As to the Coast Guard, yes, they would be immoral if they left me and my son to drown. Why? Because they are tasked with saving me. It's their job. It's their obligation.

As it is the same with GOD. God is not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), and God desires all men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4).

God isn't obligated to save anyone.

Not true. God is obligated to save everyone He can because God's very nature is loving and good and He does not want to see anyone perish. God cares for all of His creation. Did you not admit to be me before that God cannot act contrary to his loving and good nature?

His justice demands that everyone be punished.

But God sent His Son so as to fulfill the just requirements of sin.
This is why Calvinism fails. It by-passes the cross or de-emphasizes it over Calvinistic Election.

However, out of mercy He has chosen to save some.

No. Out of God's love (mercy) He sent His Son Jesus Christ to save mankind so as to then offer man the free gift openly to all people (whoever desires it). John 3:16 says, For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that WHOSEVER believes in Him shall not persih but have everlasting life. John 3:16 does not say, God so love the world that He gave His only begotten Son that only those in whom God regenerates so as to believe shall not perish but have everlasting life.

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." (Revelation 22:17).

Calvinism is not the gospel.
It is not the focus of salvation.
Jesus Christ, the cross, and His resurrection is the gospel.
It is through abiding in Christ and believing in Him we have salvation.
It is not by some kind of spiritual regeneration outside of our free will choice.
Why else are we told to choose this day in whom we will serve if it was all some kind of Calvinistic election kind of thing? Again, Calvinism fails at every turn when you read your Bible. Unless of course you are wearing Calvinistic glasses and you are wanting to see Calvinism in the Bible where it does not exist. Just read and believe the Bible without any biased presuppositions.

The only obligation I can see is that He must save His sheep. For Him to not save one of His, or to let one get away (which you believe He does) would make Him a lousy Shepherd who cannot take care of His own.

But doesn't God just make the sheep? Doesn't God have the power to make them all to be sheep?

Now, Jason, you have a choice.

That is ironic.

You can either respond to what I actually said, or you can continue to follow your pattern of responding to half of what I said and filling in the blanks with your presuppositions.

No. You have a choice. You can either clearly explain to me the morality behind why God saves some and does not save others or you have to admit there is a flaw in your belief because you cannot adequately explain the mystery as to why God saves some when He has the power to save them all; Or do you think God does not have the power to save them all?


...