BobRyan

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Sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin had no power to condemn us until after the law was given: "For before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law." (Romans 5:13).
.

A total misread of Romans 5. Scripture shows Adam and Eve condemned in Genesis 3 due to sin.
Romans 5 affirms their condemnation to the point of death - in fact that 2nd death of Rev 20 ... from which only the Gospel could save them.

Genesis speaks of the "sin" of Sodom and Gomorrah being great. (Before they are destroyed)

This is irrefutable. You have presenting a misread of Romans 5:13 totally out of context.

The condemnation of the law has past and future application, just as the sacrifice of Christ has past and future application:



Hello Bob.
John 15:22
If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.

John 15:24
If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have both seen and hated Me and My Father as well.

You need to explain what Jesus said, Bob, how can they have an excuse for their sin?
 
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BobRyan

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The Ten Commandments define what sin is.and what righteousness is.

The sinful nature is in fact the law of sin and death - at war with the Ten Commandments... and in fact exposed by them.



A distinction without a difference.


The Ten Commandments define what sin is and what righteousness is ... The LAW of God, the Commandments of God.

We saw that here --

God's TEN Commandments are included in what the Bible calls the "Commandments of God"

(So then they are not the only parts of the OT that are included as the "Commandments of God" - but they are one of the laws included)

=============================

KEEP the Commandments - God's Ten Commandments are included as the "Commandments of God"


10 Commandments are –
“Commandments of God” Neh 10:29
“Law of God” Neh 10:29
“Word of God” Mark 7:13
“Commandment of God” Mark 7:6-13
NT “Scripture” James 2:8
NT “Law” – James 2:9-11
NT Commandments Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10


1John 2:
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.


John says -
Rev 22:
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.(KJV)

The teaching of Christ: Commandment of God = Word of God = "Moses said" in the case of the TEN Commandments.

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


Exodus 20
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

John 14
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.


1 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Rev 14:12
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

1 Cor 7:19 .. "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"

Eph 6:2 the 5th commandment "is the FIRST commandment WITH a promise" in that still valid - unit of TEN.

Matt 19 "if you would have eternal life KEEP the Commandments... Which ones?.." then comes Christ list FROM the Ten Commandments.

Romans 7 - quoting the Commandments - from the TEN
Romans 13 - from the TEN
James 2 - from the TEN.

And of course - under the NEW Covenant the "LAW of God written on heart and mind" - Jeremiah 31:31-33 and certainly Jeremiah knew about the TEN.

There is still no '10' in any of those scriptures

Yes there is - as even your own pro-sunday scholars admit. (when BOTH sides see the same obvious Bible detail... well it just does not GET any easier than this!!).

Here Christ affirms the TEN Commandments - as a tiny example of one of the text quoted.

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


Your argument against God's Ten Commandments - is an argument against the teaching that we find in Mark 7. Were we simply "not supposed to notice"???

-- "Do not add to His words, or He will rebuke you and prove you a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

your copy-pasting old posts doesn't change the fact that you are contradicting the scriptures.

Another short example from the texts you are ignoring in that post --

Eph 6:2 the 5th commandment "is the FIRST commandment WITH a promise" in that still valid - unit of TEN.

Irrefutably the TEN Commandments and we BOTH know it. IN fact your own pro-sunday scholars admit it as well.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"???

Both sides are in error.

Out on a limb on that one.


God convicts "the WORLD" of sin and righteousness and judgment - but does not say "act as if you had no Bible" ... not even in Romans 2.

“For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts (Romans 2:14-15).


Obviously.

As even your own pro-sunday Scholars admit.
 
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BobRyan

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The Ten Commandments define what sin is.and what righteousness is.

The sinful nature is in fact the law of sin and death - at war with the Ten Commandments... and in fact exposed by them.

A distinction without a difference.

The Ten Commandments define what sin is and what righteousness is ... The LAW of God, the Commandments of God.

We saw that here --

God's TEN Commandments are included in what the Bible calls the "Commandments of God"

(So then they are not the only parts of the OT that are included as the "Commandments of God" - but they are one of the laws included)

=============================

KEEP the Commandments - God's Ten Commandments are included as the "Commandments of God"


10 Commandments are –
“Commandments of God” Neh 10:29
“Law of God” Neh 10:29
“Word of God” Mark 7:13
“Commandment of God” Mark 7:6-13
NT “Scripture” James 2:8
NT “Law” – James 2:9-11
NT Commandments Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10


1John 2:
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.


John says -
Rev 22:
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.(KJV)

The teaching of Christ: Commandment of God = Word of God = "Moses said" in the case of the TEN Commandments.

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


Exodus 20
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

John 14
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.


1 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Rev 14:12
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

1 Cor 7:19 .. "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"

Eph 6:2 the 5th commandment "is the FIRST commandment WITH a promise" in that still valid - unit of TEN.

Matt 19 "if you would have eternal life KEEP the Commandments... Which ones?.." then comes Christ list FROM the Ten Commandments.

Romans 7 - quoting the Commandments - from the TEN
Romans 13 - from the TEN
James 2 - from the TEN.

And of course - under the NEW Covenant the "LAW of God written on heart and mind" - Jeremiah 31:31-33 and certainly Jeremiah knew about the TEN.

There is still no '10' in any of those scriptures

Yes there is - as even your own pro-sunday scholars admit. (when BOTH sides see the same obvious Bible detail... well it just does not GET any easier than this!!).

Here Christ affirms the TEN Commandments - as a tiny example of one of the text quoted.

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


Your argument against God's Ten Commandments - is an argument against the teaching that we find in Mark 7. Were we simply "not supposed to notice"???

-- "Do not add to His words, or He will rebuke you and prove you a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

your copy-pasting old posts doesn't change the fact that you are contradicting the scriptures.

Another short example from the texts you are ignoring in that post --

Eph 6:2 the 5th commandment "is the FIRST commandment WITH a promise" in that still valid - unit of TEN.

Irrefutably the TEN Commandments and we BOTH know it. IN fact your own pro-sunday scholars admit it as well.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"???

Both sides are in error.
...
Still no 10 in those scriptures.
The only 10 in those scriptures is the 10 you keep adding.
If there is a 10, then show me the 10.
.

That is the sort of "ignore every detail in the text... refuse to show how your preference survives the text.. in detail" response that merely proves the downfall of your case.

If you really have to ignore the texts to make your case - then it fails by your own avoidance of the text details.
 
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BobRyan

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The whole world (past and future) is condemned by the law, because for God there is no past or future. God does not operate in our timeline. .

Utter nonsense. You are making the case that if God sinned before He gave the law HE would be guilty because HE has no past or future. there is no text that says "if God knows it ... then you are responsible for it even if he does not act or speak " and we all know it.

By contrast - in real life we have
Genesis 26:5
5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.

Abraham was Not "GOD Living outside of time" ... obviously.

A total misread of Galatians 3 makes it difficult for you to accept Genesis 26:5 or the statement about "the sin of Sodom" in Genesis 18 and the "sin of Cain" in Genesis 4.

Gen 18: 20 And the Lord said, “The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave.

"any ol excuse will do" will not work as the "substance" with which to oppose the Bible - and we both know it.

And the objective unbiased readers know it too.
 
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A total misread of Romans 5. Scripture shows Adam and Eve condemned in Genesis 3 due to sin.
Romans 5 affirms their condemnation to the point of death - in fact that 2nd death of Rev 20 ... from which only the Gospel could save them.

Genesis speaks of the "sin" of Sodom and Gomorrah being great. (Before they are destroyed)

This is irrefutable. You have presenting a misread of Romans 5:13 totally out of context.
How has he been presenting a false idea of Romans 5:13?The events of Sodom were before the law.
 
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Yes there is - as even your own pro-sunday scholars admit. (when BOTH sides see the same obvious Bible detail... well it just does not GET any easier than this!!).

Here Christ affirms the TEN Commandments - as a tiny example of one of the text quoted.

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


Your argument against God's Ten Commandments - is an argument against the teaching that we find in Mark 7. Were we simply "not supposed to notice"???

-- "Do not add to His words, or He will rebuke you and prove you a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

your copy-pasting old posts doesn't change the fact that you are contradicting the scriptures.

Another short example from the texts you are ignoring in that post --

Eph 6:2 the 5th commandment "is the FIRST commandment WITH a promise" in that still valid - unit of TEN.

Irrefutably the TEN Commandments and we BOTH know it. IN fact your own pro-sunday scholars admit it as well.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"???



Out on a limb on that one.


God convicts "the WORLD" of sin and righteousness and judgment - but does not say "act as if you had no Bible" ... not even in Romans 2.

“For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts (Romans 2:14-15).


Obviously.

As even your own pro-sunday Scholars admit.
But these gentiles didn't keep the law of Moses as Acts 15 proves.
 
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BobRyan

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How has he been presenting a false idea of Romans 5:13?The events of Sodom were before the law.

"Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

Turns out - the people of Sodom were sinning... transgression against the Law of God.
Gen 18:” 20 And the Lord said, “The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave.

By contrast we have this for the case of Abraham
Gen 26:5 5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.”
 
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That is the sort of "ignore every detail in the text... refuse to show how your preference survives the text.. in detail" response that merely proves the downfall of your case.

If you really have to ignore the texts to make your case - then it fails by your own avoidance of the text details.
Of course you don't do this very thing. You often refuse to acknowledge the Scripture presented directly to you.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"???
 
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Utter nonsense. You are making the case that if God sinned before He gave the law HE would be guilty because HE has no past or future. there is no text that says "if God knows it ... then you are responsible for it even if he does not act or speak " and we all know it.
I missed where Doveaman said God sinned.
 
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"Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

Turns out - the people of Sodom were sinning... transgression against the Law of God.
Gen 18:” 20 And the Lord said, “The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave.

By contrast we have this for the case of Abraham
Gen 26:5 5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.”
Deuteronomy 5:3
 
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Doveaman

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Ex 20:7 "LOVE Me and KEEP My Commandments"
John 14:15 "LOVE Me and KEEP My Commandments"
1 John 5:2-3 "This IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments"
There is no 10 in those Bible details. Details matter -- "Do not add to His words, or He will rebuke you and prove you a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).
ALL the LAW and the commandments based on the TWO foundation commandments "LOVE God" Deut 6:5 and "Love your neighbor" Lev 18:18
Exactly.

Love
is the foundation, and the 10 commandments is the old house that was built on that foundation.

The old house has now been removed and a new house is now built on that same foundation of love:

"For He Himself is our peace, who has made the two one...by abolishing in His flesh the law with its commandments and regulations".."The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect)...Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant." (Ephesians 2:14-15, Hebrews 7:18-22).
God's WORD is LAW
Yes, God's Word is Law, indeed the living Word is Law, and the living Word is Spirit.
Adam was commanded by the living Word of the Spirit, not the letter.
And we, too, are commanded by the living Word of the Spirit, not the letter:

"He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant -- not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills...which was engraved in letters on stone" (2 Corinthians 3:6-8).
SIN IS transgression of the LAW - 1 John 3:4... still
Sin is the transgression of the righteous requirements of the law, not the letter:

“If those who are not circumcised keep the righteous requirements of the law...who is not circumcised physically and yet fulfills the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written letter and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law.” -- (Romans 2:26-29).

The righteous requirements of the law, which is love, can be transgressed, even by those who obey the written letter of the law - the 10 commandments.
The point is that just as all the Law and the prophets based on two commandments - so the TEN Commandments extend out to all moral areas of conduct as Christ points out in Matthew 5.
Let's look at the two commandments:

"'Love the Lord your God'...This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
(Matthew 22:37-40).

All that is commanded in the Prophets and in the Law of Moses, which includes the 10 commandments, are based on these 2 commandments to love God and neighbor. Therefore, if we obey these 2 commandments to love God and neighbor, we do not need the 10 commandments, because the 2 commandments fulfills them all: Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law” (Romans 13:9-10).

“For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts (Romans 2:14-15).

Gentiles, who do not have the 10 commandments, do obey the requirements of the law to love their neighbor, even though they do not have the 10 commandments.
And basically - we are still talking about a Bible detail that even our own pro-Sunday scholars affirm. I.e. the obvious.
Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.
Both you and the pro-Sunday scholars are in error.
Utter nonsense. You are making the case that if God sinned before He gave the law HE would be guilty because HE has no past or future. there is no text that says "if God knows it ... then you are responsible for it even if he does not act or speak " and we all know it.
I have no idea what you are trying to say here, but we know that Jesus is "the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world." (Revelation 13:8).

Scriptures speak of Christ being crucified from the foundation of the world even though He was crucified many years later. This is because what God has determined beforehand is already in effect beforehand. This is why Abraham was a man of faith beforehand even though faith came later through the sacrifice of Christ:

“The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham...So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.” (Galatians 3:8-17).

Abraham was justified beforehand by a faith that came later through Christ, just as the whole world was condemned beforehand by a law that came later through the Jews.
By contrast - in real life we have
Genesis 26:5
5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.
There is no 10 in those Bible details. Details matter.
Abraham was Not "GOD Living outside of time" ... obviously.
But his justification by faith was outside of time. He was justified beforehand, before the time: “The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham” (Galatians 3:8-17).

A total misread of Galatians 3 makes it difficult for you to accept Genesis 26:5 or the statement about "the sin of Sodom" in Genesis 18 and the "sin of Cain" in Genesis 4.

Gen 18: 20 And the Lord said, “The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave.

"any ol excuse will do" will not work as the "substance" with which to oppose the Bible - and we both know it.

And the objective unbiased readers know it too.
I do accept the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah. Sodom and Gomorrah sinned by transgressing the righteous requirement of the law to love God. Their perverted sexual expression was a perversion of the love God required. And they were condemned beforehand by the law that was later given through the Jews:

"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God." (Romans 3:19-20).

Every mouth, the whole world, including Sodom and Gomorrah, is held accountable to God through the condemnation of the law.

"For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one Man the many will be made righteous. The law was added so that the trespass might increase." (Romans 5:19-20).

The trespass of the whole world, including Sodom and Gomorrah, was increased through the condemnation of the law. The true nature and extent of their sin was made evident through the condemnation of the law.
 
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