LAW of God -- vs -- sinful nature's law of SIN and death

[BobRyan]

Sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin had no power to condemn us until after the law was given: "For before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law." (Romans 5:13).
.

A total misread of Romans 5. Scripture shows Adam and Eve condemned in Genesis 3 due to sin.
Romans 5 affirms their condemnation to the point of death - in fact that 2nd death of Rev 20 ... from which only the Gospel could save them.

This is irrefutable. You have presenting a misread of Romans 5:13 totally out of context.

 

[1stcenturylady]

True. And mankind had always been conscious of sin - as we see starting early no just in Genesis 3 as the hid from God - due to sin. but also in Genesis 4 "SIN is crouching at your door - you must master it".

Sin existed... the LAW existed... consciousness of sin existed -- so says the earliest chapters in the Bible

Yes, sin existed, but now through Christ we are DEAD TO SIN. Romans 6:2. We are not in the flesh if we have been baptized with the Holy Spirit with the burning fire to cleanse us of the desire to sin.

You are not listening. You are just preparing your next cut and paste job.

 

[BobRyan]

The LAW defines what SIN is - and that Law includes the Ten Commandments.
The LAW exposes the bent-to-sin that is in sinful nature - and that LAW includes the TEN commandments.
The LAW is written on the heart under the NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-33 and that LAW is at war with the sinful nature as stated in Romans 7.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, sin existed, but now through Christ we are DEAD TO SIN. Romans 6:2. We are not in the flesh if we have been baptized with the Holy Spirit with the burning fire to cleanse us of the desire to sin.

You are not listening. You are just preparing your next cut and paste job.

total nonsense - the post you quoted first quoted a prior post and responded to a point in it. And we both know it.

 

[1stcenturylady]

A total misread of Romans 5. Scripture shows Adam and Eve condemned in Genesis 3 due to sin.
Romans 5 affirms their condemnation to the point of death - in fact that 2nd death of Rev 20 ... from which only the Gospel could save them.

This is irrefutable. You have presenting a misread of Romans 5:13 totally out of context.

Sin existed but God overlooked sin before the law. That is what Dove is pointing out.

 

[BobRyan]

Sin existed but God overlooked sin before the law. That is what Dove is pointing out.

Not true at all and we both know it. Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden and condemned to death in Genesis 3 just as Romans 5 says... not "dove". Bible details matter.

What is more the entire world was condemned in Genesis 6 due to sin...

Were we simply "not supposed to notice" just because someone offered a misread of Romans 5??

 

[1stcenturylady]

total nonsense - the post you quoted first quoted a prior post and responded to a point in it. And we both know it.

Show me what I said that wasn't straight from the teaching of scripture, unless you are saying the inspiration of the scriptures is total nonsense. Are you so full of the flesh that the scriptures are foolishness to you?

 

[BobRyan]

The purpose of the law was to make us conscious of sin by helping us to recognize the sin existing in human nature: "Just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned—for before the law was given, sin was in the world." (Romans 5:12-13).

Sin existed in human nature before the 10 commandments were given, .

True. And mankind had always been conscious of sin - as we see starting early no just in Genesis 3 as the hid from God - due to sin. but also in Genesis 4 "SIN is crouching at your door - you must master it".

Sin existed... the LAW existed... consciousness of sin existed -- so says the earliest chapters in the Bible
=====================================

That is the post you then respond to as follows --

Yes, sin existed, but now through Christ we are DEAD TO SIN. Romans 6:2. We are not in the flesh if we have been baptized with the Holy Spirit with the burning fire to cleanse us of the desire to sin.

You are not listening. You are just preparing your next cut and paste job.

total nonsense - the post you quoted first quoted a prior post and responded to a point in it. And we both know it.

Show me what I said that wasn't straight from the teaching of scripture,

Read the post. You said I was not listening and I proved your statement was false because my post was a direct response to the point raised by Dove's post.

Details matter.

unless you are saying the inspiration of the scriptures is total nonsense. Are you so full of the flesh that the scriptures are foolishness to you?

More nonsense. you are twisting the point ... I find such logic "illusive".

Details matter.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Not true at all and we both know it. Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden and condemned to death in Genesis 3 just as Romans 5 says... not "dove". Bible details matter.

What is more the entire world was condemned in Genesis 6 due to sin...

Were we simply "not supposed to notice" just because someone offered a misread of Romans 5??

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Yes, sin existed, but now through Christ we are DEAD TO SIN. Romans 6:2. We are not in the flesh if we have been baptized with the Holy Spirit with the burning fire to cleanse us of the desire to sin.

You said, "total nonsense - the post you quoted first quoted a prior post and responded to a point in it. And we both know it.

These are the scriptures I referred to.
Romans 6:2 "How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?" That is being dead to sin.

Romans 8:9 "But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His."

These are the scriptures you said were "total nonsense." That is blasphemy

 

[1stcenturylady]

total nonsense - the post you quoted first quoted a prior post and responded to a point in it. And we both know it.

What you said was total nonsense were scriptures you don't want to believe. That's your free will choice.

 

[1stcenturylady]

When you say things like "and we both know it, you are virtually calling me a liar. I don't lie.

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

 

[1stcenturylady]

..

 

[listed]

A total misread of Romans 5. Scripture shows Adam and Eve condemned in Genesis 3 due to sin.
Romans 5 affirms their condemnation to the point of death - in fact that 2nd death of Rev 20 ... from which only the Gospel could save them.

This is irrefutable. You have presenting a misread of Romans 5:13 totally out of context.

I would love to know what misrepresenting was done with Romans 5:13.

 

[listed]

The LAW defines what SIN is - and that Law includes the Ten Commandments.
The LAW exposes the bent-to-sin that is in sinful nature - and that LAW includes the TEN commandments.
The LAW is written on the heart under the NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-33 and that LAW is at war with the sinful nature as stated in Romans 7.

The law given to Israel isn't written on the heart as Romans 2:14-15 prove.

 

[BobRyan]

The law given to Israel isn't written on the heart as Romans 2:14-15 prove.

Nothing of the sort in Romans 2... not even remotely a quote of Romans 2.

However - We do have this in the actual Bible

God's TEN Commandments are included in what the Bible calls the "Commandments of God"

(So then they are not the only parts of the OT that are included as the "Commandments of God" - but they are one of the laws included)

=============================

KEEP the Commandments - God's Ten Commandments are included as the "Commandments of God"


10 Commandments are –
“Commandments of God” Neh 10:29
“Law of God” Neh 10:29
“Word of God” Mark 7:13
“Commandment of God” Mark 7:6-13
NT “Scripture” James 2:8
NT “Law” – James 2:9-11
NT Commandments Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10


1John 2:
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.


John says -
Rev 22:
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.(KJV)

The teaching of Christ: Commandment of God = Word of God = "Moses said" in the case of the TEN Commandments.

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


Exodus 20
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

John 14
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.


1 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Rev 14:12
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

1 Cor 7:19 .. "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"

Eph 6:2 the 5th commandment "is the FIRST commandment WITH a promise" in that still valid - unit of TEN.

Matt 19 "if you would have eternal life KEEP the Commandments... Which ones?.." then comes Christ list FROM the Ten Commandments.

Romans 7 - quoting the Commandments - from the TEN
Romans 13 - from the TEN
James 2 - from the TEN.

1 John 3:4 "Sin IS transgression of the LAW"

Rom 7 Sin defined by the LAW
7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

Rom 4 - where there is no Law there is no sin.

Rom 3:19-20
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.


And of course - under the NEW Covenant the "LAW of God written on heart and mind" - Jeremiah 31:31-33 and certainly Jeremiah knew about the TEN.

 

[Doveaman]

Yes there is - as even your own pro-sunday scholars admit. (when BOTH sides see the same obvious Bible detail... well it just does not GET any easier than this!!)

Both sides are in error.

Here Christ affirms the TEN Commandments - as a tiny example of one of the text quoted.

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:

The commands given through Moses was based on the letter of 10 commandments.
The commands given through Christ is based on the love of the Spirit.
We honor our parents because we love them, and not because we obey the 10 commandments:

“For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts” (Romans 2:14-15).

Gentiles, who do not have the 10 commandments, do honor their parents out of love from their hearts, even though they do not have the 10 commandments.

11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Your argument against God's Ten Commandments - is an argument against the teaching that we find in Mark 7. Were we simply "not supposed to notice"???

Still no 10 in those scriptures.
The only 10 in those scriptures is the 10 you keep adding.
If there is a 10, then show me the 10.

-- "Do not add to His words, or He will rebuke you and prove you a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

Exactly.

your copy-pasting old posts doesn't change the fact that you are contradicting the scriptures.

Another short example from the texts you are ignoring in that post --

Eph 6:2 the 5th commandment "is the FIRST commandment WITH a promise" in that still valid - unit of TEN.

Irrefutably the TEN Commandments and we BOTH know it. IN fact your own pro-sunday scholars admit it as well.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"???

If there is a 10 in those scriptures, then show me the 10 from scriptures, and stop adding your own 10. -- "Do not add to His words, or He will rebuke you and prove you a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

According to Paul... according to scripture.

Romans 7
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
..
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Right, Paul is showing that the law helps us to recognize sin by slewing us, or condemning us, for sin.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

Correct, the commandments are good because they help us to recognize sin.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

The "inward" man is the spiritual man.
In the spiritual man, Paul delights is the Spirit of the law, not the letter:

"He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant -- not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills...the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone" (2 Corinthians 3:6-8).

Romans 2:26

• King James Version
  Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
  
• Young's Literal Translation
  If, therefore the uncircumcision the righteousness of the law may keep, shall not his uncircumcision for circumcision be reckoned?

• Romans 6:16
  New American Standard Bible
  Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

Romans 8:4

• King James Version
  That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
  
• Young's Literal Translation
  that the righteousness of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Exactly, the righteousness of the law is the spiritual requirements of the law.
The circumcised (Jews) kept the letter of the law.
The uncircumcised (Gentiles) kept the Spirit of the law.
The letter of the law is the 10 commandments.
The Spirit of the law is the love of the Spirit.

“For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts” (Romans 2:14-15).

Gentiles, who do not have the 10 commandments, do honor their parents out of love from their hearts, thereby fulfilling the righteous requirements of the law, even though they do not have the 10 commandments.

True. And mankind had always been conscious of sin - as we see starting early no just in Genesis 3 as the hid from God - due to sin. but also in Genesis 4 "SIN is crouching at your door - you must master it".

Sin existed... the LAW existed... consciousness of sin existed -- so says the earliest chapters in the Bible

Consciousness of sin doesn't merely mean being aware of sin. Consciousness of sin also means being aware of the harmful nature of sin. If there is no death penalty for sin we would not take sin seriously. The ancients did not take sin seriously because there was no written law that condemned sin: “for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.” (Romans 5:13).

But when the law of commandments came, as Paul said: "When the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death...in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me...so that sin through the commandment might become utterly sinful." -- (Romans 7:9-13).

The purpose of the written law of commandments was to help us to recognize the utterly sinful nature of sin by condemning us for sin. After the written law was introduced, sin was then taken seriously, because the written law (the letter of the law) condemned the whole world for sin:

"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin." (Romans 3:19-20).

 

[Doveaman]

A total misread of Romans 5. Scripture shows Adam and Eve condemned in Genesis 3 due to sin.

Romans 5 affirms their condemnation to the point of death - in fact that 2nd death of Rev 20 ... from which only the Gospel could save them.

The condemnation of the law has past and future application, just as the sacrifice of Christ has past and future application:

"For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one Man the many will be made righteous. The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more" (Romans 5:19-20).

Adam's trespass was increased through the condemnation of the law. He was condemned to death for his sin through the past application of the law, just as he was delivered from death through the past application of God's grace.

This is also why the whole world (past and future) is condemned by the law:

"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God." (Romans 3:19-20).

The whole world (past and future) is condemned by the law, because for God there is no past or future. God does not operate in our timeline. Everything is present to God:

"I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come".."before Abraham was, I AM!" (Isaiah 46:9-10, John 8:58).

This is irrefutable. You have presenting a misread of Romans 5:13 totally out of context.

Did Adam sin by breaking the 10 commandments?

No, he did not.

Adam sinned by breaking a direct command from the Spirit of God, a command that is not included in the 10 commandments -- 'Thou shall not eat the fruit.'

The sin that Adam committed was a violation of the Spirit, not the letter, because the letter was not yet given when Adam had sinned.

This again proves that “before the law was given, sin was in the world.” (Romans 5:13).

 

[BobRyan]

Did Adam sin by breaking the 10 commandments?

Ex 20:7 "LOVE Me and KEEP My Commandments"
John 14:15 "LOVE Me and KEEP My Commandments"
1 John 5:2-3 "This IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments"

ALL the LAW and the commandments based on the TWO foundation commandments "LOVE God" Deut 6:5 and "Love your neighbor" Lev 18:18

God's WORD is LAW -
SIN IS transgression of the LAW - 1 John 3:4... still

The point is that just as all the Law and the prophets based on two commandments - so the TEN Commandments extend out to all moral areas of conduct as Christ points out in Matthew 5.

And basically - we are still talking about a Bible detail that even our own pro-Sunday scholars affirm. I.e. the obvious.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Ex 20:7 "LOVE Me and KEEP My Commandments"
John 14:15 "LOVE Me and KEEP My Commandments"
1 John 5:2-3 "This IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments"

ALL the LAW and the commandments based on the TWO foundation commandments "LOVE God" Deut 6:5 and "Love your neighbor" Lev 18:18

God's WORD is LAW -
SIN IS transgression of the LAW - 1 John 3:4... still

1 John 3:23