What type of "evidence" of God would an atheist accept?

[pshun2404]

Oh, oh, me! Pick me!

Let's say we include some very simple, basic ideas in the concept of "God".
That it has "knowlegde" far greater than any human can have... perhaps even unlimited.
That it is in communication with human beings.
That is can share its knowledge.

I have a perfect piece of evidence, that I would accept as comming from such a "God".

Sadly, everytime I ask for it, I only get human responses of why I won't get it.

try me...

 

[pshun2404]

And lo, all living things were made up of tiny bags, filled mostly with water, but also other things which made them work together. And in the heart of each bag there was a great source of control, for it carried the instructions that would be followed. And the instructions were spelled with only four letters, but were still so complex that all life could thrive on what they said.

Yes we know how the information is encoded (the form of the code) and perhaps what it does coming from the DNA (the decoding process) but how did the information get into the DNA (what or who is the encoder)?

But back to the OP, what evidence would you accept that would convince you there is a God?

 

[Freodin]

try me...

Seriously?

Ok, here it goes...
At some point in my past - decades ago now - something extraordinary happened to me. Something that I could not explain then, even though I tried hard to unravel this mystery. Something that has bothered me for the rest of my life. The sole time that I might say that something "supernatural" happened to me... though there still are a few potential natural explanations, that I simply do not any means to test for, then and now.

Reaching "out" for an answer is something that I cannot do... I could never be certain that I didn't simply imagine it, even if I were to "find" any answer at all.

So what I want you to do is: pray!
Don't pray that this extraordinary event is explained to me... but that God shows this to you, and then relate this revelation to me.
Ask him to reveal to you to circumstance of what happened - that is my safeguard to know that it isn't you who is imagining things - and what the explanation behind this event was.

If you can do that, I will accept that as evidence for the existence and power of God.

This isn't asking for a circus trick or something that will grant me any personal gain (except for some peace of mind). I am not asking for the number I am just now thinking of, or next weeks lottery results. This is a serious request.

 

[pshun2404]

Seriously?

Ok, here it goes...
At some point in my past - decades ago now - something extraordinary happened to me. Something that I could not explain then, even though I tried hard to unravel this mystery. Something that has bothered me for the rest of my life. The sole time that I might say that something "supernatural" happened to me... though there still are a few potential natural explanations, that I simply do not any means to test for, then and now.

Reaching "out" for an answer is something that I cannot do... I could never be certain that I didn't simply imagine it, even if I were to "find" any answer at all.

So what I want you to do is: pray!
Don't pray that this extraordinary event is explained to me... but that God shows this to you, and then relate this revelation to me.
Ask him to reveal to you to circumstance of what happened - that is my safeguard to know that it isn't you who is imagining things - and what the explanation behind this event was.

If you can do that, I will accept that as evidence for the existence and power of God.

This isn't asking for a circus trick or something that will grant me any personal gain (except for some peace of mind). I am not asking for the number I am just now thinking of, or next weeks lottery results. This is a serious request.

There are two options here...one is that it happens and you simply say it is incorrect! The second is that others HAVE had the exact same experience (or something alarmingly similar) and because you will not reveal it, no one can know (including yourself).

The error in this scenario is you are requiring I prove to you this apparently outside "the natural order" experience happened to you, where only you know it either did or did not actually happen (we do not know, though I would believe it could have because of my own such experiences when I was an agnostic). I will say however that having had a number of such experiences WERE part of what led ME to seriously consider the reality of a God(s) (which I formerly believed to be either a lie, a delusion, superstition, or brainwashing).

This is not a gift I possess, but my not having it does not prove there is not a God or super intelligence at work on the Universe. Now should I pray and receive a possible answer to that prayer being outside the "natural order" (as you would define natural) there would be no material test to prove it and we are back to the "two options" mentioned earlier.

All I can say is that IF such a thing has actually happened to YOU, THEN myself having had a few such experiences (though I would not say they were of God) I would say this is for you to decide what to do with it, for I KNOW that even if I were able to satisfy this request you would still find it inadequate to believe this demonstrated there is a God (and I know this from personal experience).

I could ask you to do the exact same thing which YOU also would not be able to do, and that is not "evidence" for OR against the possibility that there is or is not a God just that there is or is not "outside of the Natural order" phenomena or experiences (many of which may one day be proven to be quite natural)! For example, many centuries ago, people believed invisible life forms were responsible for many diseases.

They believed these invisible life forms would possess/invade/take over the body and cause all sorts of havoc in the body and mind (even kill). They called them spirits...of course NOW we know they were correct after all only we call them bacteria and virus's and now have extended our ability to see them through intelligently designed instrumentation.

 

[pshun2404]

Kylie asked/said "Something in the Bible that clearly describes something that was not known until centuries later. If the Bible described micro-organisms causing disease, for example."

As just posted, many centuries ago, people believed invisible life forms were responsible for many diseases. They believed these invisible life forms would possess/invade/take over the body and cause all sorts of havoc in the body and mind (even kill). They called them spirits...of course NOW we know they were correct after all, only we call them bacteria and virus's, and now have extended our ability to see them through intelligently designed instrumentation.

 

[pshun2404]

Seriously?

Ok, here it goes...
At some point in my past - decades ago now - something extraordinary happened to me. Something that I could not explain then, even though I tried hard to unravel this mystery. Something that has bothered me for the rest of my life. The sole time that I might say that something "supernatural" happened to me... though there still are a few potential natural explanations, that I simply do not any means to test for, then and now.

Reaching "out" for an answer is something that I cannot do... I could never be certain that I didn't simply imagine it, even if I were to "find" any answer at all.

So what I want you to do is: pray!
Don't pray that this extraordinary event is explained to me... but that God shows this to you, and then relate this revelation to me.
Ask him to reveal to you to circumstance of what happened - that is my safeguard to know that it isn't you who is imagining things - and what the explanation behind this event was.

If you can do that, I will accept that as evidence for the existence and power of God.

This isn't asking for a circus trick or something that will grant me any personal gain (except for some peace of mind). I am not asking for the number I am just now thinking of, or next weeks lottery results. This is a serious request.

Just that so many HAVE HAD so many such experiences throughout time (and some are charlatans I am sure) should speak loudly to any one not blind or deaf (and I do not mean physically).

 

[Freodin]

There are two options here...one is that it happens and you simply say it is incorrect! The second is that others HAVE had the exact same experience (or something alarmingly similar) and because you will not reveal it, no one can know (including yourself).

The error in this scenario is you are requiring I prove to you this apparently outside "the natural order" experience happened to you, where only you know it either did or did not actually happen (we do not know, though I would believe it could have because of my own such experiences when I was an agnostic). I will say however that having had a number of such experiences WERE part of what led ME to seriously consider the reality of a God(s) (which I formerly believed to be either a lie, a delusion, superstition, or brainwashing).

This is not a gift I possess, but my not having it does not prove there is not a God or super intelligence at work on the Universe. Now should I pray and receive a possible answer to that prayer being outside the "natural order" (as you would define natural) there would be no material test to prove it and we are back to the "two options" mentioned earlier.

All I can say is that IF such a thing has actually happened to YOU, THEN myself having had a few such experiences (though I would not say they were of God) I would say this is for you to decide what to do with it, for I KNOW that even if I were able to satisfy this request you would still find it inadequate to believe this demonstrated there is a God (and I know this from personal experience).

I could ask you to do the exact same thing which YOU also would not be able to do, and that is not "evidence" for OR against the possibility that there is or is not a God just that there is or is not "outside of the Natural order" phenomena or experiences (many of which may one day be proven to be quite natural)! For example, many centuries ago, people believed invisible life forms were responsible for many diseases.

They believed these invisible life forms would possess/invade/take over the body and cause all sorts of havoc in the body and mind (even kill). They called them spirits...of course NOW we know they were correct after all only we call them bacteria and virus's and now have extended our ability to see them through intelligently designed instrumentation.

I rest my case.

All I want to point out is that I made it specifically clear just what concept of "God" I was talking about in my first post - a being of knowledge and sharer of this knowledge - and you somehow still considered you worthy to be "tried".

And look, here you are, doing exactly what I predicted: giving excuses for why I won't get what I ask for.

So, you were tried, and found wanting.

 

[pshun2404]

Something in the Bible that clearly describes something that was not known until centuries later.

Danial 9 describes a Messiah in the future who would be cut off (a reference to Isaiah 53:10) or killed just before a prince would come in and destroy the Holy Sanctuary (which had not yet been re-built) and that the sacrifices and ablations would cease.

Now whether one accepts Daniel had this vision when he says he did (around 560 bce) OR that later student scribes wrote it down around the dubiously assumed later date of 175 bce. it is absolutely prescient and historically correct.

A Messiah was indeed born, and killed (cit off from the land of the living) who brought in Everlasting Righteousness (the righteousness of God available to all who follow His outlined protocols exactly) and an Everlasting Peace (a Shalom unlike peace as this world describes peace that never ceases) and following this event another prince (Titus, son of the Emperor of Rome) came in and destroyed the Holy Sanctuary and the sacrifices and oblations have indeed ceased and never been restored.

 

[pshun2404]

I rest my case.

All I want to point out is that I made it specifically clear just what concept of "God" I was talking about in my first post - a being of knowledge and sharer of this knowledge - and you somehow still considered you worthy to be "tried".

And look, here you are, doing exactly what I predicted: giving excuses for why I won't get what I ask for.

So, you were tried, and found wanting.

Feel free to interpret the truth as you see fit. Thanks for making my point. IF you had such an experience and are not insane I would love to hear about it but yes I am not one who could give you what you asked, but even if I were that is not evidence one way or another that there is or is not such a being. The error is in the question.

 

[Freodin]

Just that so many HAVE HAD so many such experiences throughout time (and some are charlatans I am sure) should speak loudly to any one not blind or deaf (and I do not mean physically).

You don't even know what I am talking about.

See, that is exactly why I phrased (and will phrase, the next time someone like you askes to be "tried") my request in the way I did: without really independent corrobation, I cannot be certain that it isn't just me speaking... and making stuff up.

I found... through many experiences (of another kind than the one in question), that this is exactly what Christians do. Like do any other theists. They listen to the echos of their minds... and declare this to be God speaking.

This is a perfect example here. You have no idea of just what this event was that I refer to. But still you assume that you have all the options figured out.

The problem that you have not considered in your "options" is me. You have spend so much time figuring your imagination of me into your explanations, that you didn't have anything left over for the real me.

I will gladly acknowledge that this is a very human thing to do. I often do that myself, and it is not something that I will criticise you for.

But for someone who even considered himself able to directly respond to a personal request like mine... this is already bad. For someone who really believes in a caring, communicative deity... this is unacceptable.

 

[Freodin]

Feel free to interpret the truth as you see fit. Thanks for making my point. IF you had such an experience and are not insane I would love to hear about it but yes I am not one who could give you what you want (which is not evidence one way or another that there is or is not such a being). The error is in the question.

That it has "knowlegde" far greater than any human can have... perhaps even unlimited.
That it is in communication with human beings.
That is [sic] can share its knowledge.

These were the settings given. You wanted to be tried upon them. You chose to evade instead, just as I had predicted.

Wiggle as much as you like... I have seen through you antics a long time ago.

 

[Freodin]

Feel free to interpret the truth as you see fit. Thanks for making my point. IF you had such an experience and are not insane I would love to hear about it but yes I am not one who could give you what you asked, but even if I were that is not evidence one way or another that there is or is not such a being. The error is in the question.

Another thing:
I understand that you doubt me. You are right to do so. Humans are fallible and can be deceitful.

But again: the thing you ignored. Me. The option you are missing: what I really would do.

Perhaps it would happen as you say: you provide a correct answer, and I deny it. You will never know if you were right. But I would know.
Perhaps I am just making this stuff up, and nothing like that ever happened to me. You will never know beyond what I am telling you. But I do know.

So often I am told about your loving deity, the "Jesus in your heart", you best and closest friend, who is always there for you, who helps you, guides you, want to share his love with you and all humans.

If I was in your situation, I would turn to this best friend and ask him for advice. "Look", I would say: "There is this guy, Freodin, who is clearly in need of help. I don't know him. I cannot tell if he is sincere or not. But YOU do, my God! Please help me help him. Please tell me what I can say to him to reach him."

And if this God was real, your words might indeed touch me. How could they not... being related via you from my loving father?

But this never happens. All I hear in your words are the echos of a human mind.

 

[pshun2404]

You don't even know what I am talking about.

See, that is exactly why I phrased (and will phrase, the next time someone like you askes to be "tried") my request in the way I did: without really independent corrobation, I cannot be certain that it isn't just me speaking... and making stuff up.

I found... through many experiences (of another kind than the one in question), that this is exactly what Christians do. Like do any other theists. They listen to the echos of their minds... and declare this to be God speaking.

This is a perfect example here. You have no idea of just what this event was that I refer to. But still you assume that you have all the options figured out.

The problem that you have not considered in your "options" is me. You have spend so much time figuring your imagination of me into your explanations, that you didn't have anything left over for the real me.

I will gladly acknowledge that this is a very human thing to do. I often do that myself, and it is not something that I will criticise you for.

But for someone who even considered himself able to directly respond to a personal request like mine... this is already bad. For someone who really believes in a caring, communicative deity... this is unacceptable.

You are 100% correct as to my not understanding YOUR alleged experience but the point I was making was that many (in all cultures, through all time, both genders, different ages, different levels of intelligence and education) have had experiences that one can only explain as "outside of the natural order", myself included (some in groups most of whom do not believe) and I would never say these prove God.

I will share one of my own. After over 20 years of agnosticism I had experienced some untestable (by materialist means) phenomena. I was at this point seeking to find if God was real and if He as really there. After a couple of experiences in a congregation where in one case a smokelike /atmosphere had fallen upon us all (to my utter shock) the whole place lit up and people were shouting praises and even children as young as 3 began weeping uncontrollably. There was nothing in the message being given to elicit this and the tears were tears of great joy and adulation. I has never heard of or believed in such a phenomena but smoke filling the tabernacle when in the presence of God came to mind (from the OT).

At any rate (and this is the story I am sharing) the following week I requested I be baptized (I cannot even explain why, I just knew I had to do this). All that was there was an old horse trough which they filled with water that was quite cold.

For over a decade I had suffered from Uric Acidosis, was on Zyloprim, and had passed kidney stobes at least 7 times...when I was immersed I heard a distinct (not my own inner voice) voice say "Throw away your medicine son, you are healed". I told no one immediately for fear someone would accuse me of being dramatic or making a false claim (a sad residue of my previous materialist indoctrination) but I did as directed immediately and now 30 years later my Ph balance is still perfect and I have never had another episode.

This event was the final push where by I concluded God is not only real, He is a living being, and He DOES in fact communicate with some when it suits His purpose and He has answered many prayer of my wife and I (as well as many other undeniable yet untestable phenomena).

Now you can believe it or not Ripley, but it is THE truth that this indeed happened exactly as I have reported it. I do have others I could tell you about that others were present and also experienced...(most still are not theist but indeed they were all "outside of" what you would define as the Natural Order)

 

[Freodin]

You are 100% correct as to my not understanding YOUR alleged experience but the point I was making was that many (in all cultures, through all time, both genders, different ages, different levels of intelligence and education) have had experiences that one can only explain as "outside of the natural order", myself included (some in groups most of whom do not believe) and I would never say these prove God.

I will share one of my own. After over 20 years of agnosticism I had experienced some untestable (by materialist means) phenomena. I was at this point seeking to find if God was real and if He as really there. After a couple of experiences in a congregation where in one case a smokelike /atmosphere had fallen upon us all (to my utter shock) the whole place lit up and people were shouting praises and even children as young as 3 began weeping uncontrollably. There was nothing in the message being given to elicit this and the tears were tears of great joy and adulation. I has never heard of or believed in such a phenomena but smoke filling the tabernacle when in the presence of God came to mind (from the OT).

At any rate (and this is the story I am sharing) the following week I requested I be baptized (I cannot even explain why, I just knew I had to do this). All that was there was an old horse trough which they filled with water that was quite cold.

For over a decade I had suffered from Uric Acidosis, was on Zyloprim, and had passed kidney stobes at least 7 times...when I was immersed I heard a distinct (not my own inner voice) voice say "Throw away your medicine son, you are healed". I told no one immediately for fear someone would accuse me of being dramatic or making a false claim (a sad residue of my previous materialist indoctrination) but I did as directed immediately and now 30 years later my Ph balance is still perfect and I have never had another episode.

This event was the final push where by I concluded God is not only real, He is a living being, and He DOES in fact communicate with some when it suits His purpose and He has answered many prayer of my wife and I (as well as many other undeniable yet untestable phenomena).

Now you can believe it or not Ripley, but it is THE truth that this indeed happened exactly as I have reported it. I do have others I could tell you about that others were present and also experienced...(most still are not theist but indeed they were all "outside of" what you would define as the Natural Order)

But I am not asking for your stories. They might or might not have happened as you relate them... I have no way of knowing.

Instead I am asking for informations that I can indeed verify... and these I do not get.

This concept might be completely foreign to you now, if you ever accepted it: verification.
The question was what kind of "evidence" I would accept. My response is: verifiable evidence. You cannot provide this. This is a flaw in your belief system. Don't blame me for it.

 

[Michael]

But I am not asking for your stories. They might or might not have happened as you relate them... I have no way of knowing.

Instead I am asking for informations that I can indeed verify... and these I do not get.

This concept might be completely foreign to you now, if you ever accepted it: verification.
The question was what kind of "evidence" I would accept. My response is: verifiable evidence. You cannot provide this. This is a flaw in your belief system. Don't blame me for it.

That's an interesting wrinkle as it relates to the concept of "evidence". Such a demonstration would not necessarily be verifiable to anyone besides you, so it's not necessarily a purely empirical standard of evidence, but it is a "verifiable" standard of evidence for you personally, as you suggest. Interesting. Thanks for sharing.

 

[dmmesdale]

Still conjecture. Saying "Being 'A' is active in my life" does not teach us that "Being 'A' is eternal or omnimax/God".

Something is eternal and living, or we would not be here unless you wish to entertain everything is from nothing and all life is from nonlife. Nothing defined as what sleeping rocks dream of.

Your computer is your obedient slave. Bought and paid for and replaced when obsolete.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Something is eternal and living, or we would not be here unless you wish to entertain everything is from nothing and all life is from nonlife. Nothing defined as what sleeping rocks dream of.

Your computer is your obedient slave. Bought and paid for and replaced when obsolete.

Why? Why does something have to be eternal and living? Your "we would not be here" claim appears to be only a wild assertion and nothing more.

That your claim is not supported at all is one reason why atheists ask for evidence.

 

[pshun2404]

My Daniel 9 example in post 88 IS verifiable evidence. Something not possible being known or described was known and described and happened just as described in the correct order of events.

 

[ananda]

Something is eternal and living, or we would not be here unless you wish to entertain everything is from nothing and all life is from nonlife. Nothing defined as what sleeping rocks dream of.

Irrelevant, and all still conjecture. I cannot even prove that there is anything truly "out there" besides the phenomena experienced by my mind.

 

[ananda]

My Daniel 9 example in post 88 IS verifiable evidence. Something not possible being known or described was known and described and happened just as described in the correct order of events.

1. How have you proven for yourself that Daniel 9 was indeed written hundreds of years before its alleged fulfillment?
2. How does this prove "God"? Even if we could somehow directly know for ourselves that Daniel 9 was truly written hundreds of years before its fulfillment, it still doesn't prove "God". It could potentially point to an extremely powerful, long-lived being - but not necessarily Almighty, Infinite, Omnimax, or Eternal - who orchestrated the prophecy and its alleged fulfillment.