LAW of God -- vs -- sinful nature's law of SIN and death

[BobRyan]

We who are in Christ no longer live by human nature nor rely on the letter of the law. We now participate in God's divine nature where we now live and rely on God's love just as God Himself lives and rely on His love:
..
The covenant based on God's promise to Abraham which God previously established with Abraham was the new covenant of the Spirit, which was given 430 years before the letter of the law was introduced. Abraham lived by faith under the new covenant of the Spirit, and not by law under the old covenant of the letter. .

Less creative writing ... more Bible please. "old covenant of the Letter" is your phrase in creative writing - a phrase not found in the Bible.

in the actual Bible the term "letter of the LAW" is merely "the LAW in written form" and is the SAME as the LAW as we see in the ONE place where it actually IS in the Bible.

Romans 2
And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?

The LAW is the same - it is just a reference as to who has it in written text form and who does not when it comes to "Letter of the LAW" --

Do not take God's name in vain - in WRITTEN Form would be had by chosen people of God - who were given that law in WRITING. IT does not change the law - to say "Well Vikings were not given that law IN Writing by God Himself at Sinai".

You have created a division where the Bible has none.

It is a sin to take God's name in vain NO MATTER that it is not the Vikings but rather Israel that gets the "written LAW" at Sinai.

 

[Doveaman]

I am showing context for the discussion. If you were actually correct in your wild claim that this is not in fact exposing the key glaring flaw in your statement - then you would actually want your well stated case being shown - as often as possible.

We both know what is going on here.

No, we both don't know what is going on here.

"the law of the Spirit" before the written Word of God at Sinai - "as if" the two are not in agreement?

They are not.

The written letter at Sinai was a law that brings condemnation. The eternal law of the Spirit is a law that brings life:

"He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant -- not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory...will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?" (2 Corinthians 3:6-8).

There is no "Law of the LETTER" in that entire Gal 3 quote you pasted ... and we both know it.

No, YOU don't know it.

The entire chapter of Galatians 3 is about the Old Covenant law that was based on the 10 commandments, which Paul says is now an unemployed schoolmaster:

"But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster." (Galatians 3:23-25).

You offer division between God and His Law -- where there is none.

No, I am offering clarity between God and His Law -- where there is none on your part.

Less creative writing ... more Bible please.
"old covenant of the Letter" is your phrase in creative writing - a phrase not found in the Bible.

Maybe you need a different Bible:

"He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant -- not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills...the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone" (2 Corinthians 3:6-8).

You just need some basic common sense to recognize that Paul is talking about the letter of the law that was engraved in letters on stone -- the 10 commandments.

in the actual Bible the term "letter of the LAW" is merely "the LAW in written form" and is the SAME as the LAW as we see in the ONE place where it actually IS in the Bible.

Talk about creative writing.

The letter of the law is the letters of the 10 commandments that were engraved in letters on stone, and which brought death.

Denial doesn't help your argument.

Romans 2
And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?

The LAW is the same - it is just a reference as to who has it in written text form and who does not when it comes to "Letter of the LAW"

Nope.

There is the righteous requirements of the law (Love) and there is the letter of the law (10 commandments).

The 10 commandments are not the fulfillment of God's law. Love is the fulfillment of God's law: "Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13:9-10).

Do not take God's name in vain - in WRITTEN Form would be had by chosen people of God - who were given that law in WRITING. IT does not change the law - to say "Well Vikings were not given that law IN Writing by God Himself at Sinai".

The Vikings had the righteous requirements of the law (Love), not the letter:

“For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts” -- (Romans 2:14-15).

“If those who are not circumcised keep the righteous requirements of the law, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? The one who is not circumcised physically and yet fulfills the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written letter and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law.” -- (Romans 2:26-29).

We transgress the law, not by violating its letter, but by violating its righteous requirements to love others as ourselves.

You have created a division where the Bible has none.

Actually, I am creating clarity where the Bible has.

It is a sin to take God's name in vain NO MATTER that it is not the Vikings but rather Israel that gets the "written LAW" at Sinai.

On that we can agree.

Those who obey the righteous requirements of the law to love God will not take His name in vain.

 

[BobRyan]

There is no point in continually copy-pasting the same old posts that I already addressed many times.

It doesn't help your argument.

I am showing context for the discussion. If you were actually correct in your wild claim that this is not in fact exposing the key glaring flaw in your statement - then you would actually want your well stated case being shown - as often as possible.

We both know what is going on here. I cut out the winding rambling parts and just show where clear statement is made - and then that the bible refutes it

Great example of the above - where a suggestion is made - then I show that the Bible refutes that speculation.

=========================

What exactly are you saying here?
I said the law of the Spirit existed before Sinai, not the letter, and you respond by saying "There is no possibility at all of pitting the Holy Spirit against scripture".

How is the Holy Spirit being pitted against scripture?

"the law of the Spirit" before the written Word of God at Sinai - "as if" the two are not in agreement?

Or was it your intent to say that the Law as known to Abraham in Genesis 26:5 - is in perfect agreement with the written Word of God??

Nope, it is my intent to say that the law of the Spirit is not the same as the law of the letter and that Abraham lived by the law of the Spirit:

“The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham...So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. All who rely on observing the law are under a curse…Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, 'The righteous will live by faith.' The law is not based on faith…Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law…He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit…The promises were spoken to Abraham…What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.” (Galatians 3:8-17).

There is no "Law of the LETTER" in that entire Gal 3 quote you pasted ... and we both know it. It is only in the suggestion you make about it.

We do not transgress "against" the law, we transgress against God.
.

You offer division between God and His Law -- where there is none.

"Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4.

James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.

I prefer the Word of God when it comes to doctrine.

No, we both don't know what is going on here.

I am a little surprised by that statement given that I just should a perfect example of your statement in a post - and just where the Bible addresses the point - refuting it.

The written letter at Sinai was a law that brings condemnation.

The command "do not take God's name in vain" defines sin and condemns those who do BEFORE written on stone AND AFTER written on stone.

No change.

We both know it.

============================================

"He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant -- not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory...will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?" (2 Corinthians 3:6-8).
No, YOU don't know it.

The entire chapter of Galatians 3 is about the Old Covenant law that was based on the 10 commandments, which Paul says is now an unemployed schoolmaster:

"But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster." (Galatians 3:23-25).

Fine - the Galatians topic it is. Will give you a thread fully devoted to the chapter - you will have lots of room to make your case.

 

[Doveaman]

I am showing context for the discussion. If you were actually correct in your wild claim that this is not in fact exposing the key glaring flaw in your statement - then you would actually want your well stated case being shown - as often as possible.

We both know what is going on here. I cut out the winding rambling parts and just show where clear statement is made - and then that the bible refutes it

Great example of the above - where a suggestion is made - then I show that the Bible refutes that speculation.

=========================

"the law of the Spirit" before the written Word of God at Sinai - "as if" the two are not in agreement?

Or was it your intent to say that the Law as known to Abraham in Genesis 26:5 - is in perfect agreement with the written Word of God??

There is no "Law of the LETTER" in that entire Gal 3 quote you pasted ... and we both know it. It is only in the suggestion you make about it.

You offer division between God and His Law -- where there is none.

"Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4.

James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.

I prefer the Word of God when it comes to doctrine.

Still repeating yourself, I see.

Not a very good strategy.

I am a little surprised by that statement given that I just should a perfect example of your statement in a post - and just where the Bible addresses the point - refuting it.

I'm not aware of anything being refuted by you.

The command "do not take God's name in vain" defines sin and condemns those who do BEFORE written on stone AND AFTER written on stone.

No change.

We both know it.

No, we don't.

Sin is the violation of God's eternal love: “God is love, and whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him” -- (1 John 4:16-17).

When we violate God's love we are violating God Himself. This is how we sin against God, it is by violating His love. And this is why love is the fulfillment of God's law: “Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law” (Romans 13:9-10).

The righteous requirements of God's law is love, and those who obey the requirements of God's love will not take God's name in vain:

“For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts” -- (Romans 2:14-15).

“If those who are not circumcised keep the righteous requirements of the law, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? The one who is not circumcised physically and yet fulfills the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written letter and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law.” -- (Romans 2:26-29).

We transgress God's law, not by violating its letter, but by violating its requirements to love.

 

[Doveaman]

in the actual Bible the term "letter of the LAW" is merely "the LAW in written form" and is the SAME as the LAW as we see in the ONE place where it actually IS in the Bible.

The letter of the law is not the Spirit of the law written on our hearts.

The Spirit of the law is God’s eternal law.
God’s eternal law is the one law eternally expressed by the Father and Son before time began.

The letter of the law was temporarily made for man.
The Spirit of the law is eternally expressed by God.
The letter of the law reveals sin to man.
The Spirit of the law reveals the righteousness of God.

The letter of the law is obedience to the 10 commandments.
The Spirit of the law is to love others as ourselves.
This is why love fulfills the spiritual requirements of the law:

“Whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law” (Romans 13:9-10).

The 10 commandments is not the fulfillment of God’s law.
The 10 commandments do not fulfill the requirements of God’s love.
The 10 commandments do restrain us in a limited way from harming our neighbor, but they do not enable us to completely lay down our lives for others as Christ did:

“This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends” (John 15:12-13).

 

[BobRyan]

Still repeating yourself, I see.

Not a very good strategy.

When the texts are irrefutable - as I have shown - then it is "solid gold" and the only defense against those texts is to try and find away for them to "not be posted".

As we both know.

I'm not aware of anything being refuted by you.

read the posts. You typically cut out the texts that you cannot refute. Then "quote yourself"

Sin is the violation of God's eternal love:

Your "quote of you" is at least "consistent"

By contrast - the actual Bible says.

"SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

“God is love, and whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him” -- (1 John 4:16-17).

"This IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:2-3

I will be sticking with the Bible on this detail.

When we violate God's love we are violating God Himself.

I too admire creative writing. But in this case we are talking about Bible doctrine.

We transgress God's law, not by violating its letter, but by violating its requirements to love.

Creatively inserting a division where no division exists - is great creative writing -- but not a quote of the actual Bible.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Statement seems to be posted in the form of an oxymoron.

In any case one vote "against" the OP obvious statement - even if I find you logic "illusive"

The LAW of Sin in Romans 7 is the sinful nature - sin... AND death..AND rebellion... and destruction... and... add whatever you wish - it is the sinful nature already described in Romans 3

Right, I agree. It is the sinful nature. But don't you know that Christ delivered us from committing sin since He has put His own Spirit within us, making us dead to sin.

Romans 6:1-2
1 John 3:4-10
Romans 8:1-9
Acts 2:38

Unfortunately, not everyone has been baptized with the quenching fire of the Holy Spirit to kill the sinful nature and make us new creatures in Christ. Some will go to church all their lives and in the end, go straight to hell. Why? Because they never truly repented, the prerequisite to receiving Christ's Spirit.

 

[1stcenturylady]

The letter of the law is not the Spirit of the law written on our hearts.

The Spirit of the law is God’s eternal law.
God’s eternal law is the one law eternally expressed by the Father and Son before time began.

The letter of the law was temporarily made for man.
The Spirit of the law is eternally expressed by God.
The letter of the law reveals sin to man.
The Spirit of the law reveals the righteousness of God.

The letter of the law is obedience to the 10 commandments.
The Spirit of the law is to love others as ourselves.
This is why love fulfills the spiritual requirements of the law:

“Whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law” (Romans 13:9-10).

The 10 commandments is not the fulfillment of God’s law.
The 10 commandments do not fulfill the requirements of God’s love.
The 10 commandments do restrain us in a limited way from harming our neighbor, but they do not enable us to completely lay down our lives for others as Christ did:

“This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends” (John 15:12-13).

I agree, but would just like to add one more scripture. 1 John 3:23 :And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I was raised SDA and was a firm believer in the Sabbath and the Ten Commandments. I could never understand why anyone who said they believed in the Ten Commandments could not see that the 7th day was the Sabbath, not the first. All you had to do was look at a calendar on the wall! And, for me, that hasn't changed. Saturday, starting Friday evening, IS the Sabbath. It is law.

So then we have to ask, are we under law or under grace, and what does that mean? Can we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Paul said, GOD FORBID! Of course we are not under ceremonial law as any SDA will tell you. But the Ten Commandments is the moral law. Right? And if we continue reading we find we are not under the moral law either, as that is what Paul was clearly referring to in Romans 7, not ceremonial rituals.

Romans 7:

6-7

"But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” (Clearly referring to the Ten Commandments)

10-11

And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.



The Ten Commandments was being referred to here as having brought the law of sin and death. And Exodus 34:28 shows us that it is the Ten Commandments that God referred to as THE COVENANT. Therefore, not only are we not under the Old Covenant, but the New, we are not under the Ten Commandments, which revealed the law of sin and death. Why? Because under the New Covenant we are now dead to sin and alive in Christ. We fulfill the law by walking in the Holy Spirit with our new nature .



So what is the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant if we are still not to sin, just because we are under grace? And what is grace, anyway? Let's start with grace, and the rest will be easy.

There is a problem in only seeing one side to grace, when scripture shows us more. Many have never even completed the first step, Repentance. They say, why repent if believing in Jesus washes away all our past, present and future sins? That is a false doctrine that keeps people very susceptible to temptations. They have no power to not sin.

The unmerited favor side to grace is that we did not deserve that Christ should die for our sins. We didn't deserve that the Holy Spirit should draw us to Christ or convict us of our sin that we could not overcome. All we had to do was to cry out to God to forgive us our past sins, and believe on His Son, Jesus Christ. Now comes the other side to God's grace, the supernatural part.

First we repent. Acts 2:38-39 “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins;

And now for the supernatural part:

…and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”





In Acts 4 and 2 Peter 1, we find a couple examples of Semitic parallelisms on grace that shows the supernatural meaning it becomes after receiving the Holy Spirit. This is one of the styles of Hebrew writing. This one shows the same thing in parallel, said differently, but clarify the meaning.



Acts 4:33 And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.

2 Peter 1:2-4 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.



In the New Covenant, it is important to emphasize that the role of the Holy Spirit has been given to us for supernatural power to not sin. (You don't need laws your new nature cannot break 1 John 3:9) Many false doctrines emphasize not being under the law but under unmerited favor as you keep sinning. They fail to see that grace has now turned into the power of God to no longer be a slave to sin as emphasized in Romans 6.

Acts 1:8 “But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you.”

Romans 15:13 “Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.”

1 Corinthians 2:4 “And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,”

1 Corinthians 5:4 “In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,”

2 Thessalonians 1:11 “Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power,

John 1:12 Wycliffe Bible (WYC) 12 But how many ever received him, he gave to them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name;

The power of grace has killed sin in us. We are dead to sin, making the law unnecessary. Now we have the Spirit of Christ living in us. However, we do have free will and are capable of sinning, but we now have power to resist. Paul said, I die daily. We now are to walk in the Spirit.

James 1:12-15 12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.



Romans 8:1-9

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.



So we see that law vs. grace is being alive to sin vs. dead to sin.





New Covenant Commandments

1 John 3:23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.



Whenever you see "commandments" in a writings of John the above is what he means, not the Ten Commandments. Here is another:



John 15:10 (Jesus vs. The Ten Commandments.) If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.



And another:

1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?



And another:

Revelation 12:17 "who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.





The Ten Commandments and the commandments of Jesus are both based on the eternal laws of God. To love God with all your strength, mind and body, and to love your neighbor as yourself. However the commandments of Jesus are deeper going to the core of iniquity, makes us dead to sin and makes us righteous; which supersedes the Ten Commandments as they could not make anyone righteous.



These are two covenants. The Old Covenant, the Ten Commandments which revealed in us the law of sin and death; and the New Covenant of the law of the Spirit of life in Christ, which has freed me from the law of sin and death, Romans 8:2. The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Being freed from the law of sin and death in our old nature, and alive to being righteous without the law, the written law is no longer necessary for we keep it naturally by loving our neighbor as ourselves.

.



2 Corinthians 3:5-7

"Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.



7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory."



1 John 1:7

7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another (with God), and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.



Because of the gift of the Holy Spirit making us dead to sin, empowering us to no longer be a slave to sin, but enabling us to walk in the Spirit we can understand how John can say:



1 John 3:6-9 "6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."



Where you have covenants, you have signs of covenants. And where you have two covenants, one superseding the other, so it is with the signs of those respective covenants. The Sabbath, a foreshadow of Jesus, was the sign of the superseded Old Covenant Exodus 31:13 and is itself now superseded by the new sign. The blood of Jesus, represented by the Cup of the New Covenant is the sign of the New Covenant 1 Corinthians 11:25.



Two covenants:

Old Covenant: The Ten Commandments represented by Ishmael, son of Hagar, the bondwoman.

New Covenant: The law of the Spirit of life in Christ by faith represented by Isaac, the son of promise.



Galatians 4:21 "Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all...28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.



Galatians 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.



22:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

 

[1stcenturylady]

The entire post is also true.

In case you missed it:

The law of commandments can also be considered a law of sin and death.

The purpose of the law of commandments was to expose the harmfulness of sin by condemning us to death for sin:

"Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death...But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me...so that sin through the commandment might become utterly sinful." -- (Romans 7:9-13).

Sin receives its power to condemn us to death through the law:

"The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law." -- (1 Corinthians 15:56).

Sin has no power to condemn us to death when we are not under the law:

"For if those who live by the law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, because the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression...for before the law was given, sin was in the world, but sin is not taken into account when there is no law." -- (Romans 4:14-15, Romans 5:13).

We who are led by the Spirit of God cannot be condemned to death for sin because we are not under the law:

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control; against such there is no law." -- (Galatians 5:22-23).

It is not the Ten Commandments that IS the law of sin and death, it is holy. I've been wrong before by calling it such. But it revealed in us our sinful nature which brings death. Of that you are right. What has changed is us. What has changed is our nature. We are dead to sin, due to the baptism of fire of the Holy Spirit, killing sin in us, and making us naturally righteous, whereas we no longer need a schoolmaster. By walking in the Spirit we no longer fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

 

[BobRyan]

Right, I agree. It is the sinful nature. But don't you know that Christ delivered us from committing sin since He has put His own Spirit within us, making us dead to sin.

Romans 6:1-2
1 John 3:4-10
Romans 8:1-9
Acts 2:38

Unfortunately, not everyone has been baptized with the quenching fire of the Holy Spirit to kill the sinful nature and make us new creatures in Christ. Some will go to church all their lives and in the end, go straight to hell. Why? Because they never truly repented, the prerequisite to receiving Christ's Spirit.

I make no opposition to victory over sin. Take a look at all of Romans 6 -- it makes that point. Take a look at 1 John 3:1-9 makes the same point. "Sin shall not be master over you".

At the same time - I never find even one Bible writer that writes "I never sin" or "I stopped sinning". Not saying that they never stopped sinning - just saying they never say that -- they leave that up to God to say it to the extent that it might be true for one of them.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I make no opposition to victory over sin. Take a look at all of Romans 6 -- it makes that point. Take a look at 1 John 3:1-9 makes the same point. "Sin shall not be master over you".

At the same time - I never find even one Bible writer that writes "I never sin" or "I stopped sinning". Not saying that they never stopped sinning - just saying they never say that -- they leave that up to God to say it to the extent that it might be true for one of them.

Don't you think if they preached victory over sin, they experienced the victory?

BTW, I've taught on Romans 6 and 1 John 1 and 3 so many times, I can just about recite them. LOL

 

[BobRyan]

Don't you think if they preached victory over sin, they experienced the victory?

BTW, I've taught on Romans 6 and 1 John 1 and 3 so many times, I can just about recite them. LOL

Certainly many times they were able to overcome sin - but they never say "I am sinless" or "I have ceased to sin". God certainly knows if they did or not - but they do not say it.

However - they do say "I used to be a persecutor of the church - and now I no longer do that" as Paul says to Timothy.

 

[listed]

When the texts are irrefutable - as I have shown - then it is "solid gold" and the only defense against those texts is to try and find away for them to "not be posted".

As we both know.



read the posts. You typically cut out the texts that you cannot refute. Then "quote yourself"

Are you angry because he's doing the same as you?

 

[Doveaman]

You typically cut out the texts that you cannot refute.

Actually, I cut out the texts that I already refuted, and then I refute the remainder.

the actual Bible says.

"SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

“God is love, and whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him” -- (1 John 4:16-17).

"This IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:2-3

I will be sticking with the Bible on this detail.

There is no ‘10’ in 1 John 5:2-3, so you are obviously sticking to your own added detail – "Do not add to His words, or He will rebuke you and prove you a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

It is your inability to make the distinction between the letter of the law and the Spirit of the law that is causing you to distort the Bible by adding to it.

The letter of the law is the literal interpretation of the words in the letter.
The Spirit of the law is the personal intent of the God who wrote the letter.

What was God's intent when He wrote the letter against murder?
It was because of His love for us and His desire for us not to harm each other.
This is why Romans 13 tells us: "Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law” (Romans 13:9-10).

Love fulfills the spiritual intent of God’s law. God’s love for man is the reason why the letter was given in the first place. Man cannot naturally express God’s love, so God gave man a temporary letter to keep man in check: "Before faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was our schoolmaster to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster" (Galatians 3:23-25).

We are no longer under the schoolmaster of the letter. The Jews relied on the interpretation of the letter, but the Christian rely on the love of the Spirit. All our actions are governed by the love of God’s Spirit, and no longer by the words of the letter.

Also notice the distinction: The Jews who relied on the letter had an indirect and impersonal relationship, but the Christian who rely of the Spirit has a direct and personal relationship with God. This is why Galatians 5 tells us: "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace" (Galatians 5:4).

Those who rely on the letter are alienating themselves from a personal relationship with God, because the letter is impersonal. This is why the Jews did not receive the letter directly from God. The letter was administered through angles by a human mediator, Moses:

"What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator" (Galatians 3:19).

The letter of the law was not administered by God Himself, it was administered by inferior beings. This was because the letter was not God’s divine standard, it was an inferior standard. Jesus, through His divine Spirit, has now brought the superior standard of God’s law, the standard that is administered by God Himself:

“But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which He is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises. For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another” (Hebrews 8:6-7).

The first covenant was the 10 commandments, the inferior standard: "So He declared to you His covenant, the Ten Commandments, which He commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets" (Deuteronomy 4:13).

Christians are not called to live by the inferior standard of the Old Covenant, but by the superior standard of the New. We are called to live by the love of the Spirit. We are now inspired by the Holy Spirit with the same intent that God has, the same intent to love others as we love ourselves, the same intent to love others just as God loves us:

“This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends” (John 15:12-13).

 

[1stcenturylady]

Certainly many times they were able to overcome sin - but they never say "I am sinless" or "I have ceased to sin". God certainly knows if they did or not - but they do not say it.

However - they do say "I used to be a persecutor of the church - and now I no longer do that" as Paul says to Timothy.

Do you believe they walked in the Spirit?

 

[Doveaman]

It is not the Ten Commandments that IS the law of sin and death, it is holy. I've been wrong before by calling it such. But it revealed in us our sinful nature which brings death. Of that you are right.

I agree.

The law of Ten Commandments reveals the law of sin and death in human nature.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I agree.

The law of Ten Commandments reveals the law of sin and death in human nature.

We've been so focused on the law, do you know why we no longer need it if we have Christ. What did He give us that makes us no longer need the law?

 

[Doveaman]

We've been so focused on the law, do you know why we no longer need it if we have Christ. What did He give us that makes us no longer need the law?

He gave us His Spirit, His own divine nature, so that we now live as the Father and Son lived from eternity.

"He has given us His very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires" (2 Peter 1:4).

We escape the evil desires of our human nature by obeying the righteous desires of God's divine nature.

 

[1stcenturylady]

He gave us His Spirit, His own divine nature, so that we now live as the Father and Son lived from eternity.

"He has given us His very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires" (2 Peter 1:4).

We escape the evil desires of our human nature by obeying the righteous desires of God's divine nature.

Absolutely. Further, the reason why we no longer need the law is that Christ's Spirit has killed the sin in us (that the law revealed). Temptations no longer can be unendured with no choice. Now we can endure temptations and resist them, because the carnal nature is mostly dead. However, we still have the ability to sin, but only if we CHOOSE to. But further, choosing sin can lead all the way back to perdition again.

"Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:

37 “For yet a little while,
And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”

39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.