STAGES OF DISCIPLESHIP

[Arsenios]

I guess He didn't seem that sympathetic.

Then kind and generous - Without much mentionable "sympathetic" to it - mind you...

I've been privilege to much of spirituality that sees too much of the dark side.

Much of it begins there in childhood trauma, and the summoning of dark forces to combat dark forces... A child under attack cannot fight back, and spiritual strategies can sometimes be an option... Other kids live in dark dreams, afraid to sleep for what will happen to them... Sometimes a single even can induce all manner of evils... Not to mention events in the womb - David writes in Ps 51 (50 lxx) "In sins did my mother bear me..." These days, parents seem to have backed off from directing their children's lives, and the kids have more idyllic lives - Nothing bad ever happens to them, and in a secular mind-set, such children can themselves turn to evil ways in their escape from bland and boring security -

Kinda one of those worth a million experiences that one wouldn't give 2c to relive.

I have had a few of those - Wouldn't trade 'em for anything, and wouldn't repeat 'em for any price...

But you are a great listener so thank you for that. God bless!

That is a feature of this Faith - When people live confessional lives - We learn how to listen...
When one learns to "Love your neighbor as your self."

Here is a little conundrum in humility:

When we love God with all of who we are, we 'meditate on' Him, which means entering into His Nous in our closet of prayer, stripping away from ourselves everything of ourselve that is not of God... First the senses, then the ego, then even thought itself... What then is left? Only silence and stillness, with 'God Who is everywhere present and fillest all things...' Only by becoming nothing can we then have everything...

Nor can we start here... Discipleship is designed to train us for this kind of prayer, for most of us including me do not know how to pray... Instead we spend our time asking God for all good things in words alone, when the overcoming of evils in ourselves is the only way to ask God without words for what we need...

Listening, especially to those one loves, is a great Joy...
Learning to love ALL brings the greatest Joy...
"...Of God the Gift..." Eph 2:8 c

And in this rich vein, IF we are to love as God loves...
We must desire to love all creation, the Kosmos...
"For in this manner did God love the Kosmos...
That He sent His Son, the Onlybegotten..."

So that even when you finally can love your enemies as they are slaughtering those whom you love, then even THAT is but a stage for the next ascent... There IS no limit, you see, because the ascent is into God Who is without limit...

And less is more, more or less...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

That's because I wrote that part.
This will probably sound as much like the wha wha of adults to other Charlie Browners but I'll post it anyway.

1 Corinthians 14:19
Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind (nous) in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

Quote from Nous - OrthodoxWiki
For the Apostle Paul reasonable or logical worship takes place by means of the nous (i.e., the reason or the intellect) while noetic prayer occurs through the spirit and is spiritual prayer or prayer of the heart.[4] So when the Apostle Paul says, "I prefer to say five words with my nous in order to instruct others rather than a thousand with my tongue,"[5] he means that he prefers to say five words, in other words to speak a bit, for the instruction of others rather than pray noetically. Some monks interpret what St. Paul says here as a reference to the Prayer of Jesus, which consists of five words,[6] but at this point the Apostle is speaking here about the words he used in instructing others.[7] For how can catechism take place with noetic prayer, since noetic prayer is a person"s inward prayer, and others around him do not hear anything? Catechism, however, takes place with teaching and worship that are cogent and reasonable. We teach and speak by using the reason, which is the usual way that people communicate with each other.[8]
​

An inspired message or revealation from God in the 5 words are good from intuition of the nous while a prepared message is from the intellect and not necessarily inspired.

quote from Philokalia, vol. IV (London: Faber and Faber, 1995), p, 334.
The heart is the place of man's spirit.
This means that the Spirit of God speaks to our spirit. In other words, God speaks within our heart by the grace of the Holy Spirit. St. Gregory Palamas in his second discourse from "In Behalf of the Sacred Hesychasts" notes that "the heart rules over the whole human organism". For the nous and all the thoughts (logismoi) of the soul are located there." From the context of grace-filled prayer, it is clear that the term "heart" does not refer to the physical heart, but to the deep heart, while the term nous does not refer to the intellect (dianoia), but to the energy/activity of the heart, the noetic activity which wells forth from the essence of the nous (i.e., the heart). For this reason, St. Gregory adds that it is necessary for the hesychasts "to bring their nous back and enclose it within their body and particularly within that innermost body, within the body that we call the heart." The term "spirit" is also identical with the terms nous and "heart."

​

I prefer to think that intellect and intuition are separate functions. Intellect is of the soulish intellect and intuition as being a function of the human spirit.
It's important to know at every moment from what area of nous one is working from. Sometimes it could from direct revelation, other times it could be from those things that have been pondered upon in the heart and other times it could be from a darkened mind. In reflecting upon these things there is no problem in discerning one's actions at all times. The bible's example is to the revelation, followed by the pondering in the heart, giving forth to rightly dividing the Word of God, and speaking forth with knowledge.

A believer hasn't the same mind of the darkened intellect referred to in Romans 1:28 where it says reprobate nous. or Ephesians 4:17 vain nous. or Colossians 2:18 fleshly nous. or 2 Timothy 3:8 corrupt nous. or Titus 1:15 defiled nous.
The believer 'knows' God and in 'knowing' Him they 'know' they are saved. In hearing they have believed, being reborn into the new heart and spirit. They have a renewed nous that they can understand spiritual things. That 'knowing' is the work of the regenerated nous. John 17:3 The place where Christ dwells within is where we KNOW that He hears our prayer, where the peace beyond understanding dwells because it is NOT associated with conditions pertaining to the outer condition of the soul.

The author of the book of Hebrews advised believers not to stagger in the wandering of their souls, the souls they had to deny, but to press on in their spirit so as to enjoy the heavenly Christ so that they could participate in the king's rest.
If they staggered in that soul wandering, they would miss out on God's goal by suffering the loss of the enjoyment of Christ and also the kingdom's rest in this age.

I listened to a Priest talk about the nous as the orthodox wikki you cite did, eg as the reason or the intellect... I tried to ask him about it questioning his understanding, to no avail... He is finally coming around many years later... It is the director of the intelligence - And is NOT the intelligence itself - The energy directing the mind, coming forth from what the Philokalia you cite calls the essence of the nous... It is the root of the person - It is where one goes in combat or prayer or a come-to-Jesus moment... Where everything is stripped away, and root issues are confronted, and decisions are made...

Intuition has two sources:
1 - Personal experience, where events or conditions remind one of prior conditions or events, and one thereby has a feeling about how the current ones will configure...
2 - Divine Revelation, where God gives the outcome...
The first comes to the nous from hidden memory via feelings and emotions in the understanding...
The second come through the nous from God to the understanding...

Sorry for lumping your post into a single quote...

I learned what the nous is when after encountering God and receiving all that I was able to receive from Him, He slowly withdrew from me, and I went absolutely still and quiet seeking to hold Him from departing... In that effort, I possessed for a little while, hesychia of the nous... Nepsis in the core of my very being... It was God departing Gift, which I did not understand until reading the Neptic Fathers many years, [15+] later... eg I recognized that event in the ways they were speaking about spiritual events...

So on the one hand we concentrate our nous in prayer from all distractions of the world...
And on the other, turned toward the unapproachable God, we embrace the world in Love...

Arsenios

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Then kind and generous - Without much mentionable "sympathetic"...



Much of it begins there in childhood trauma, and the summoning of dark forces to combat dark forces... A child under attack cannot fight back, and spiritual strategies can sometimes be an option... Other kids live in dark dreams, afraid to sleep for what will happen to them... Sometimes a single even can induce all manner of evils... Not to mention events in the womb - David writes in Ps 51 (50 lxx) "In sins did my mother bear me..." These days, parents seem to have backed off from directing their children's lives, and the kids have more idyllic lives - Nothing bad ever happens to them, and in a secular mind-set, such children can themselves turn to evil ways in their escape from bland and boring security -



I have had a few of those - Wouldn't trade 'em for anything, and wouldn't repeat 'em for any price...



That is a feature of this Faith - When people live confessional lives - We learn how to listen...
When one learns to "Love your neighbor as your self."

Here is a little conundrum in humility:

When we love God with all of who we are, we 'meditate on' Him, which means entering into His Nous in our closet of prayer, stripping away from ourselves everything of ourselve that is not of God... First the senses, then the ego, then even thought itself... What then is left? Only silence and stillness, with 'God Who is everywhere present and fillest all things...' Only by becoming nothing can we then have everything...

Nor can we start here... Discipleship is designed to train us for this kind of prayer, for most of us including me do not know how to pray... Instead we spend our time asking God for all good things in words alone, when the overcoming of evils in ourselves is the only way to ask God without words for what we need...

Listening, especially to those one loves, is a great Joy...
Learning to love ALL brings the greatest Joy...
"...Of God the Gift..." Eph 2:8 c

And in this rich vein, IF we are to love as God loves...
We must desire to love all creation, the Kosmos...
"For in this manner did God love the Kosmos...
That He sent His Son, the Onlybegotten..."

So that even when you finally can love your enemies as they are slaughtering those whom you love, then even THAT is but a stage for the next ascent... There IS no limit, you see, because the ascent is into God Who is without limit...

And less is more, more or less...

Arsenios

I'm a firm believer that God is in control whatever the circumstances in life and that life's circumstances reflect the lessons that are for the individual to learn. There's no cookie-cutter path because God has plans for each and everyone of us. Plans to prosper and not to harm as the scripture says. When learning to distinguish God's hand from satan's hand in one's viewpoint there comes a time that one stands on the summit of Hermon and the dens and haunts of the wild are no longer a fearful thing. What it has taught me is to find the cracks in my own armor.
Our differences in this thread, while we agree on many things, is the means of obtainment. Yours thru sacraments while I believe that all good things come directly from God with no middleman. That and not seeing eye to eye on the amount of true disciples of Jesus. We are all at different stages of course. But my belief is that we stand firm on grace.
Of course we all need strong shoulders to stand on and mine have been from the puritan legacy while yours have been from the Benzatines I assume. I did a wonderful study on the Benzatine fire at one time that was quite amazing. I only remember fragments of the many studies I have done but that is one I wished I had kept.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I listened to a Priest talk about the nous as the orthodox wikki you cite did, eg as the reason or the intellect... I tried to ask him about it questioning his understanding, to no avail... He is finally coming around many years later... It is the director of the intelligence - And is NOT the intelligence itself - The energy directing the mind, coming forth from what the Philokalia you cite calls the essence of the nous... It is the root of the person - It is where one goes in combat or prayer or a come-to-Jesus moment... Where everything is stripped away, and root issues are confronted, and decisions are made...

Intuition has two sources:
1 - Personal experience, where events or conditions remind one of prior conditions or events, and one thereby has a feeling about how the current ones will configure...
2 - Divine Revelation, where God gives the outcome...
The first comes to the nous from hidden memory via feelings and emotions in the understanding...
The second come through the nous from God to the understanding...

Sorry for lumping your post into a single quote...

I learned what the nous is when after encountering God and receiving all that I was able to receive from Him, He slowly withdrew from me, and I went absolutely still and quiet seeking to hold Him from departing... In that effort, I possessed for a little while, hesychia of the nous... Nepsis in the core of my very being... It was God departing Gift, which I did not understand until reading the Neptic Fathers many years, [15+] later... eg I recognized that event in the ways they were speaking about spiritual events...

So on the one hand we concentrate our nous in prayer from all distractions of the world...
And on the other, turned toward the unapproachable God, we embrace the world in Love...

Arsenios

I have a busy day but I'll get back to this soon. It's a topic worth discussing. Have a great day! God bless

 

[Arsenios]

I'm a firm believer that God is in control whatever the circumstances in life and that life's circumstances reflect the lessons that are for the individual to learn. There's no cookie-cutter path because God has plans for each and everyone of us. Plans to prosper and not to harm as the scripture says. When learning to distinguish God's hand from satan's hand in one's viewpoint there comes a time that one stands on the summit of Hermon and the dens and haunts of the wild are no longer a fearful thing. What it has taught me is to find the cracks in my own armor.
Our differences in this thread, while we agree on many things, is the means of obtainment. Yours thru sacraments while I believe that all good things come directly from God with no middleman. That and not seeing eye to eye on the amount of true disciples of Jesus. We are all at different stages of course. But my belief is that we stand firm on grace.
Of course we all need strong shoulders to stand on and mine have been from the puritan legacy while yours have been from the Benzatines I assume. I did a wonderful study on the Benzatine fire at one time that was quite amazing. I only remember fragments of the many studies I have done but that is one I wished I had kept.

Thank-you - I have never been called a Benzatine before!

Rome moved to Byzantium - So for a thousand years, we were called the Romans... The capitol of the Roman Empire was Constantinople... The Turks understood themselves to be conquering the Roman Empire, which they administered for awhile, and were overthrown... Now it is just an old modernizing secular Turkish city known as Istanbul with Islamic rule...

There is something I would like to say here - A Sacrament, eg a Mystery, as we prefer to call it, is the intersection of God with materiality in creation... We live the Mysteries of the Church, for a fact, but the Mystery extends to every facet of life... Prayer is a Mystery, as is the Faith (of Christ) Itself... So that walking this earth in constant prayer is itself a sacramental Mystery, bringing forth the Grace of God upon the earth in the ongoing and everpresent Love of God...

God COULD have told Saul to just start preaching to the Gentiles, and healed his blindness Himself, and maybe even have told him he did not need Baptism, but had the "Holy Spirit Baptism" already... But He did not do so... He sent Ananias to Saul with the vision of the coming of Ananias... God works through His Servants... That is why He discipled the 12 and the 70... And it is why He commanded the 12 to disciple the nations... Yes, He CAN even raise the likes of me from darkness to Light without any help from man, which He initially did do, but His first Command to me, which He repeated, was: "Do not attack them..." [eg Do not attack the Christians you despise...] What mankind is doing is learning the Love of God for all creation, while embracing Good and avoiding evil... This is a group effort... It is not the Lone Stranger Ranger, which I was, and am no longer...

We are utterly inter-dependent in Christ on Whom we are utterly dependent...

The Body of Christ is a visible Mystery...

Arsenios

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Thank-you - I have never been called a Benzatine before!

Rome moved to Byzantium - So for a thousand years, we were called the Romans... The capitol of the Roman Empire was Constantinople... The Turks understood themselves to be conquering the Roman Empire, which they administered for awhile, and were overthrown... Now it is just an old modernizing secular Turkish city known as Istanbul with Islamic rule...

World movements at those times were of particular interest to me and what was considered the 'dark ages' were ages of enlightenment in other parts of the world.

There is something I would like to say here - A Sacrament, eg a Mystery, as we prefer to call it, is the intersection of God with materiality in creation... We live the Mysteries of the Church, for a fact, but the Mystery extends to every facet of life... Prayer is a Mystery, as is the Faith (of Christ) Itself... So that walking this earth in constant prayer is itself a sacramental Mystery, bringing forth the Grace of God upon the earth in the ongoing and everpresent Love of God...

What you are terming sacraments are termed holy living to nonlitergics.

God COULD have told Saul to just start preaching to the Gentiles, and healed his blindness Himself, and maybe even have told him he did not need Baptism, but had the "Holy Spirit Baptism" already... But He did not do so... He sent Ananias to Saul with the vision of the coming of Ananias... God works through His Servants...

Blindness was well typified with Paul until He met Jesus on the road and was introduced to the body.

That is why He discipled the 12 and the 70... And it is why He commanded the 12 to disciple the nations...

Jesus seemed to have His inner circle, His friends and acquaintances much like we all do. The 12 are different in that they are to judge the 12 tribes of Israel while that is not a function of the church.

Yes, He CAN even raise the likes of me from darkness to Light without any help from man, which He initially did do, but His first Command to me, which He repeated, was: "Do not attack them..." [eg Do not attack the Christians you despise...] What mankind is doing is learning the Love of God for all creation, while embracing Good and avoiding evil... This is a group effort... It is not the Lone Stranger Ranger, which I was, and am no longer...

The first 10 yrs of my being with Christ was in rural Canada with just a bible and concordance to do topical studies with. The first reaction to organized religion 10 yrs later was "If this is what your churches are like God I feel sorry for you"

We are utterly inter-dependent in Christ on Whom we are utterly dependent...

The Body of Christ is a visible Mystery...

Arsenios

Visable yet invisable ..

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

/

1 Corinthians 14:19
Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind (nous) in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.
An inspired message or revelation from God in the 5 words are good from intuition of the nous while a prepared message is from the intellect and not necessarily inspired.
I prefer to think that intellect and intuition are separate functions. Intellect is of the soulish intellect and intuition as being a function of the human spirit.
It's important to know at every moment from what area of nous one is working from. Sometimes it could from direct revelation, other times it could be from those things that have been pondered upon in the heart and other times it could be from a darkened mind. In reflecting upon these things there is no problem in discerning one's actions at all times. The bible's example is to the revelation, followed by the pondering in the heart, giving forth to rightly dividing the Word of God, and speaking forth with knowledge.
A believer hasn't the same mind of the darkened intellect referred to in Romans 1:28 where it says reprobate nous. or Ephesians 4:17 vain nous. or Colossians 2:18 fleshly nous. or 2 Timothy 3:8 corrupt nous. or Titus 1:15 defiled nous.
The believer 'knows' God and in 'knowing' Him they 'know' they are saved. In hearing they have believed, being reborn into the new heart and spirit. They have a renewed nous that they can understand spiritual things. That 'knowing' is the work of the regenerated nous. John 17:3 The place where Christ dwells within is where we KNOW that He hears our prayer, where the peace beyond understanding dwells because it is NOT associated with conditions pertaining to the outer condition of the soul.

The author of the book of Hebrews advised believers not to stagger in the wandering of their souls, the souls they had to deny, but to press on in their spirit so as to enjoy the heavenly Christ so that they could participate in the king's rest.
If they staggered in that soul wandering, they would miss out on God's goal by suffering the loss of the enjoyment of Christ and also the kingdom's rest in this age.

Our spirit is the organ with which we contact God, while our heart is the organ with which we love God. So for the human spirit to contact or experience God requires that our heart love God. Soul is of 3 parts ~ mind, emotion, and will; also the human spirit contains 3 parts ~ conscience, communion and intuition. The heart is a composition of all parts of the soul plus the conscience which is a part of the spirit. Therefore heart can be said to be the thoughts of the mind and the will with it's intentions. Thoughts affect intentions while intentions carry out one's thought. God's word can cut through our spirits and souls until it discovers the desires and thoughts of our hearts. His word to the Hebrews was able to expose the intent behind the believers who were staggering thru the process of salvation.

I listened to a Priest talk about the nous as the orthodox wikki you cite did, eg as the reason or the intellect... I tried to ask him about it questioning his understanding, to no avail... He is finally coming around many years later... It is the director of the intelligence - And is NOT the intelligence itself - The energy directing the mind, coming forth from what the Philokalia you cite calls the essence of the nous... It is the root of the person - It is where one goes in combat or prayer or a come-to-Jesus moment... Where everything is stripped away, and root issues are confronted, and decisions are made...

The personality of the person is the soul, a renewed nous is the organ to contact while the heart is the bearer of what comes out of the mouth, the fruit thereof. So many terms. It's the jargon of the different customs that gets confusing. I think if everyone could get together and settle on a common language life would be so much easier and we would understand each other that much better.

Intuition has two sources:
1 - Personal experience, where events or conditions remind one of prior conditions or events, and one thereby has a feeling about how the current ones will configure...

This is instinctual much like any animal would have

2 - Divine Revelation, where God gives the outcome...
The first comes to the nous from hidden memory via feelings and emotions in the understanding...
The second come through the nous from God to the understanding...

that is intuition which animals do not possess.

I learned what the nous is when after encountering God and receiving all that I was able to receive from Him, He slowly withdrew from me, and I went absolutely still and quiet seeking to hold Him from departing...

Be still and know that He is God, for sure. It's when He is invisably there in knowing that the nous is enacted. If you listen around you will hear much of that.

In that effort, I possessed for a little while, hesychia of the nous... Nepsis in the core of my very being... It was God departing Gift, which I did not understand until reading the Neptic Fathers many years, [15+] later... eg I recognized that event in the ways they were speaking about spiritual events...

Sorry I didn't understand that? Can you elaborate please.

So on the one hand we concentrate our nous in prayer from all distractions of the world...
And on the other, turned toward the unapproachable God, we embrace the world in Love...

Arsenios

I see the renewed nous in the definition of prayer w/o ceasing as being in the knowing of His invisable Presence, never leaving never forsaking, while the position of the believer can be working from any area of the nous at any time. I hope that some of that made sense.

 

[Arsenios]

Sorry I didn't understand that? Can you elaborate please.

Have you met God in His Person?
Were you transformed by that encounter?
How did it conclude?

Arsenios

 

[“Paisios”]

Have you met God in His Person?
Were you transformed by that encounter?
How did it conclude?

Arsenios

(I know this wasn't addressed to me, but

Yes!
Yes!
A thirsty man in the desert is thrilled when he finds a pool of water, but then he yearns to see and swim in the ocean, and spends much time in the search for the deep water.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Have you met God in His Person?
Were you transformed by that encounter?
How did it conclude?

Arsenios

That's not much of an elaboration. Suffice to say yes I'm saved.

 

[Arsenios]

/

Our spirit is the organ with which we contact God, while our heart is the organ with which we love God. So for the human spirit to contact or experience God requires that our heart love God. Soul is of 3 parts ~ mind, emotion, and will; also the human spirit contains 3 parts ~ conscience, communion and intuition. The heart is a composition of all parts of the soul plus the conscience which is a part of the spirit. Therefore heart can be said to be the thoughts of the mind and the will with it's intentions. Thoughts affect intentions while intentions carry out one's thought. God's word can cut through our spirits and souls until it discovers the desires and thoughts of our hearts. His word to the Hebrews was able to expose the intent behind the believers who were staggering thru the process of salvation.

I think you are right...

We understand and use the same terms very differently...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

(I know this wasn't addressed to me, but

Yes!
Yes!
A thirsty man in the desert is thrilled when he finds a pool of water, but then he yearns to see and swim in the ocean, and spends much time in the search for the deep water.

How did it conclude?

What did God do?
What did you do?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

That's not much of an elaboration. Suffice to say yes I'm saved.

I want to give you the elaboration in terms of your own first-hand experience...

Arsenios

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I want to give you the elaboration in terms of your own first-hand experience...

Arsenios

I don't think it necessary to share private matters in order for you to answer a question.

 

[Arsenios]

(I know this wasn't addressed to me, but

Yes!
Yes!
A thirsty man in the desert is thrilled when he finds a pool of water, but then he yearns to see and swim in the ocean, and spends much time in the search for the deep water.

The key to the question is the knowing of God as a Person...
eg Knowing God IS Person...
And not merely a profoundly personal encounter,
But a transcendant one...

In the absence of that, I cannot elaborate what I was relating - It will all be only words...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I don't think it necessary to share private matters in order for you to answer a question.

OK...

Forgive me, I did not mean to pry...

Such events as I know them, even when one is alone, are also trans-personal...

If private, please forgive my asking...

The question, you see, was: "As God slowly withdrew from the encounter, what did you do to keep Him from withdrawing? Or to slow Him in His withdrawal...?"

It is that, and not a retelling of the event, that I was trying to elaborate with you...

If you had the kind of encounter I am speaking of, and if you tried to keep God close to you as He withdrew... Then I can show you first-hand elaboration...

If not, then OK... I will try a different way...

Arsenios

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

OK...

Forgive me, I did not mean to pry...

Such events as I know them, even when one is alone, are also trans-personal...

If private, please forgive my asking...

The question, you see, was: "As God slowly withdrew from the encounter, what did you do to keep Him from withdrawing? Or to slow Him in His withdrawal...?"

It is that, and not a retelling of the event, that I was trying to elaborate with you...

If you had the kind of encounter I am speaking of, and if you tried to keep God close to you as He withdrew... Then I can show you first-hand elaboration...

If not, then OK... I will try a different way...

Arsenios

I was trying to say that He doesn't withdraw, only going from visable (whether in sight or sound) to invisable where the trial goes on in His seeming absence. We were talking about this elsewhere where "spiritual blessings" are the "meat" for mature believers rather than that which is material or visable. I believe it's His teaching method to do so where His disciples are seemingly left but we are told to worship in spirit because God is Spirit.
Properly understanding God as a genuine person that is capable of human feelings and reasonings is part and parcel of being the church whether one has had visions of Him or heard audibly from Him.
His seeming withdrawal I reckoned to be my lack of understanding for the most part. I screamed, cried and begged to be in His fine graces. Now He just is whether I see or hear Him or not.

 

[“Paisios”]

How did it conclude?

What did God do?
What did you do?

Arsenios

OK...

Forgive me, I did not mean to pry...

Such events as I know them, even when one is alone, are also trans-personal...

If private, please forgive my asking...

The question, you see, was: "As God slowly withdrew from the encounter, what did you do to keep Him from withdrawing? Or to slow Him in His withdrawal...?"

It is that, and not a retelling of the event, that I was trying to elaborate with you...

If you had the kind of encounter I am speaking of, and if you tried to keep God close to you as He withdrew... Then I can show you first-hand elaboration...

If not, then OK... I will try a different way...

Arsenios

Questions that are unavoidably personal, of which I am willing to share some of my experience, but not sure if all will be relevant or that there are words to give it justice, and I do tend to ramble, so expect a long post.

I met God on the banks of Lake Ontario as a troubled and depressed adolescent, passed the point of being suicidal as I had no energy even for that, wanting to die but not wanting to kill myself. As I sat there in the stillness of the day, under a magnificent oak tree, listening to the lapping of the waves, I heard a voice - from without or within, I am not sure, and since I was alone with nobody in the vicinity, I don't know if others would have heard it, but it was NOT my voice - that said "You are not alone. You are loved", and knew that Jesus was beside me. Both of these were about as far from my beliefs and emotions at that time. With this, came a sense of hope, and a sense of peace, and a newfound appreciation for life.

Unfortunately, as He withdrew from the immediacy of this encounter (not that He ever left, but my experience of Him was dulled), over time I walked away, drifted from the Church, drifted into worldliness and even dabbled with other religion (Buddhism) - all of this slowly over a matter of years. Before that, though , there was an attempt to walk in step with Him, and I don't know how to explain the role for which He used my youth pastor in that process - as a portrait of Himself, as a mirror to reflect Him in me, and in many ways...

And then, in time, He used a young woman co-worker to bring me back, as she invited to a small house group meeting (since I was not yet ready to return to church), and in gentleness, love and friendship, He led me back throughout her, into the church, where, once again He made Himself known very directly to me. During a healing prayer service, where I sought healing for a foot problem, He let me know that "It is not your feet that need healing, but your heart", and soon I was completely enveloped by what I can only describe as a golden warm blanket of love, around me, on top, at the side, underneath, within, beyond, and where there are no words to explain, but that this was all encompassing and, oh, there are no words to describe it. This was my turning point. I was different now, blessed, loved and claimed by Him, and bathed in His Spirit.

How did this conclude? Well, like any experience, it ended. But it was and I was all different after that.

What did I do to keep Him from withdrawing? Forgive me, but I think that question has little meaning, because one of the things I learned, in a very concrete way so that now I can say truly that I "KNOW" it, is that God doesn't leave us or forsake us and He doesn't withdraw, though He might not be present in such an obvious and direct way. But my response to this was to turn to Him, to seek His will in my life on a daily basis (and that has led my wife and I through prayer, counsel with godly people and pastors, and Scripture, through remote areas of Canada into the USA, going places and being people that 25 years ago others would never have believed - I could go on, but I would be getting off topic a bit).

So I seek Him as a result of this...not to go after these experiences, as pleasant and life changing as they were...they were a metaphorical "kick in the pants" to wake me up...but now I seek a deeper understanding and communing with Him.

Those experiences were the exciting rapids in the shallow waters, but I'm looking for the stillness, quiet and, most importantly, the depth of the deep waters. I want to KNOW Him in as much fullness as is possible for my unworthy being to grasp...I want to follow Him meekly and adoringly, forever...I want Him.

I think I'll end here for now, hoping I've succeeded in communicating some of what seems impossible to put into words because they are too vague to describe the reality...

 

[Arsenios]

I was trying to say that He doesn't withdraw, only going from visable (whether in sight or sound) to invisable where the trial goes on in His seeming absence. We were talking about this elsewhere where "spiritual blessings" are the "meat" for mature believers rather than that which is material or visable. I believe it's His teaching method to do so where His disciples are seemingly left but we are told to worship in spirit because God is Spirit.
Properly understanding God as a genuine person that is capable of human feelings and reasonings is part and parcel of being the church whether one has had visions of Him or heard audibly from Him.
His seeming withdrawal I reckoned to be my lack of understanding for the most part. I screamed, cried and begged to be in His fine graces. Now He just is whether I see or hear Him or not.

Got it - Thank-you.
We have different experience...
I have never seen God visiby...
Nor have I heard God audibly...
I have perceived Him noetically...
That is an inward 'seeing' that is without form...
Gentle words without sounds...

In the Way in which I walk, it is the person who is to deny his personality in the course of discipleship...
I did not try to keep God in great emotionality as you did...
My emotional life was already pretty much destroyed...
My experience of Him was alone and inwardly originated...
So to hold Him, I went inward in profound silence and stillness...
I like to think I slowed him down some...
But in that effort without words either inward or outward...
I learned what the nous 'looks like,' beneath all words and thoughts, in stillness of heart and soul...
I learned profound Peace...
Now always 'at hand'...

Thank-you

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Questions that are unavoidably personal, of which I am willing to share some of my experience, but not sure if all will be relevant or that there are words to give it justice, and I do tend to ramble, so expect a long post.

I met God on the banks of Lake Ontario as a troubled and depressed adolescent, passed the point of being suicidal as I had no energy even for that, wanting to die but not wanting to kill myself. As I sat there in the stillness of the day, under a magnificent oak tree, listening to the lapping of the waves, I heard a voice - from without or within, I am not sure, and since I was alone with nobody in the vicinity, I don't know if others would have heard it, but it was NOT my voice - that said "You are not alone. You are loved", and knew that Jesus was beside me. Both of these were about as far from my beliefs and emotions at that time. With this, came a sense of hope, and a sense of peace, and a newfound appreciation for life.

Unfortunately, as He withdrew from the immediacy of this encounter (not that He ever left, but my experience of Him was dulled), over time I walked away, drifted from the Church, drifted into worldliness and even dabbled with other religion (Buddhism) - all of this slowly over a matter of years. Before that, though , there was an attempt to walk in step with Him, and I don't know how to explain the role for which He used my youth pastor in that process - as a portrait of Himself, as a mirror to reflect Him in me, and in many ways...

And then, in time, He used a young woman co-worker to bring me back, as she invited to a small house group meeting (since I was not yet ready to return to church), and in gentleness, love and friendship, He led me back throughout her, into the church, where, once again He made Himself known very directly to me. During a healing prayer service, where I sought healing for a foot problem, He let me know that "It is not your feet that need healing, but your heart", and soon I was completely enveloped by what I can only describe as a golden warm blanket of love, around me, on top, at the side, underneath, within, beyond, and where there are no words to explain, but that this was all encompassing and, oh, there are no words to describe it. This was my turning point. I was different now, blessed, loved and claimed by Him, and bathed in His Spirit.

How did this conclude? Well, like any experience, it ended. But it was and I was all different after that.

What did I do to keep Him from withdrawing? Forgive me, but I think that question has little meaning, because one of the things I learned, in a very concrete way so that now I can say truly that I "KNOW" it, is that God doesn't leave us or forsake us and He doesn't withdraw, though He might not be present in such an obvious and direct way. But my response to this was to turn to Him, to seek His will in my life on a daily basis (and that has led my wife and I through prayer, counsel with godly people and pastors, and Scripture, through remote areas of Canada into the USA, going places and being people that 25 years ago others would never have believed - I could go on, but I would be getting off topic a bit).

So I seek Him as a result of this...not to go after these experiences, as pleasant and life changing as they were...they were a metaphorical "kick in the pants" to wake me up...but now I seek a deeper understanding and communing with Him.

Those experiences were the exciting rapids in the shallow waters, but I'm looking for the stillness, quiet and, most importantly, the depth of the deep waters. I want to KNOW Him in as much fullness as is possible for my unworthy being to grasp...I want to follow Him meekly and adoringly, forever...I want Him.

I think I'll end here for now, hoping I've succeeded in communicating some of what seems impossible to put into words because they are too vague to describe the reality...

Well, this is the way I know God as well, but perhaps I am more singular, in my means of trying to hold Him near as He gently pulled back from His overwhelming nearness, than I thought... I went straight to inner stillness and silence... You were more humble, took your kick in the pants, rejoiced in your new Life, and let Him go, knowing He was always there anyway!

Thank-you...

Arsenios