Prevenient Grace

[jimmyjimmy]

It is a falling short of God's expectations.

For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23

He doesn't have any, remember?

 

[A_Thinker]

He doesn't have any, remember?

Expectations ???

Are you implying that I said such a thing ? For I know better than that.

Unfortunately, it's my bedtime. It has been an enjoyable discussion.

If you'd like to pick it back up tomorrow, I'm willing.

In the meantime, ... try to think a little bit outside of your Calvinist box ...

 

[Wordkeeper]

Quote
Total depravity (also called radical corruption or pervasive depravity) is a theological doctrine derived from the Augustinian concept of original sin. It is the teaching that, as a consequence of the Fall of Man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin as a result of their fallen nature and, apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God, refrain from evil, or accept the gift of salvation as it is offered.

It is advocated to various degrees by many Protestant confessions of faith and catechisms, including those of some Lutheran synods,[1][2] and Calvinism.[3][4][5][6] Arminians, such as Methodists, believe and teach total depravity, but with distinct differences.[7][8] The key distinction between the total depravity embraced by Calvin and the total depravity taught by Arminius is the distinction between irresistible grace and prevenient grace.

Total depravity - Wikipedia


Quote
Augustine of Hippo (354-430) was a great thinker and church leader. As a young man he had left his Christian background and become a Manichaean, a follower of an anti-Christian dualistic religion; eventually he came back to the Christian faith. But he was not a great linguist. He could speak and understand well only his native Latin, not Greek. And so for his understanding of the Bible he had to rely on translations into Latin.

Doug Chaplin has recently explained how in Romans 5:12

Augustine took Paul’s phrase “ἐφ᾽ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον” following the Vulgate “in quo omnes peccaverunt” to be “in whom [Adam] all sinned”.

(The Greek can be transliterated ef’ ho pantes hemarton.) Well, Augustine didn’t actually use the Vulgate, which was being translated during his lifetime, but the sometimes not very accurate Old Latin translations. But his Latin version seems to have been similar to the Vulgate here. Doug continues:

the Augustinian interpretation of Paul’s “ἐφ᾽ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον” as meaning “in whom all sinned” makes it the most disastrous preposition in history. All modern translations agree that its proper meaning is “because.”

More precisely, “the most disastrous preposition” is ἐφ᾽ ef’, a contracted form of epi meaning “on”. The Greek phrase ἐφ᾽ ᾧ ef’ ho literally means “on which”, or possibly “on whom”, but is commonly used to mean “because”, or perhaps “in that”. The problem is that the Latin rendering of ἐφ᾽ ᾧ, in quo, is ambiguous between “in which” and “in whom” (I’m not sure if it can also mean simply “because” or “in that”), and Augustine understood it as meaning “in whom”, i.e. “in Adam”.

So, according to Augustine all sinned “in Adam”, which he understood as meaning that because Adam sinned every other human being, each of his descendants, is counted as a sinner. This is his doctrine of “original sin”, that every human is born a sinner and deserves death because of it. He may have taken up this idea because it agreed with his former Manichaean theology. This teaching is fundamental to most Protestant as well as Roman Catholic teaching today. For example, it underlies the Protestant (not just Calvinist) teaching of total depravity, that the unsaved person can do nothing good, a teaching for which there is little biblical basis apart from Augustine’s misunderstanding which was followed by Calvin.

Augustine was indeed right to oppose the teaching (or alleged teaching) of the British or Irish teacher Pelagius, that humans are intrinsically good and can make themselves acceptable to God by good works. But Augustine’s view of the matter takes things too far in the opposite direction, further than can be justified by the biblical text.

For the far more likely meaning of the Greek text of Romans 5:12 is that all are counted as sinners because each person individually has sinned. On this view there is perhaps some kind of tendency to sin passed down from Adam to others, but there is no actual guilt. This is consistent with the Old Testament teaching of Ezekiel in which

The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child.

Ezekiel 18:20 (TNIV)

Augustine's mistake about original sin - Gentle Wisdom

 

[Hammster]

Total depravity (also called radical corruption or pervasive depravity) is a theological doctrine derived from the Augustinian concept of original sin. It is the teaching that, as a consequence of the Fall of Man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin as a result of their fallen nature and, apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God, refrain from evil, or accept the gift of salvation as it is offered.

It is advocated to various degrees by many Protestant confessions of faith and catechisms, including those of some Lutheran synods,[1][2] and Calvinism.[3][4][5][6] Arminians, such as Methodists, believe and teach total depravity, but with distinct differences.[7][8] The key distinction between the total depravity embraced by Calvin and the total depravity taught by Arminius is the distinction between irresistible grace and prevenient grace.


Total depravity - Wikipedia




Quote

Augustine of Hippo (354-430) was a great thinker and church leader. As a young man he had left his Christian background and become a Manichaean, a follower of an anti-Christian dualistic religion; eventually he came back to the Christian faith. But he was not a great linguist. He could speak and understand well only his native Latin, not Greek. And so for his understanding of the Bible he had to rely on translations into Latin.

Doug Chaplin has recently explained how in Romans 5:12

Augustine took Paul’s phrase “ἐφ᾽ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον” following the Vulgate “in quo omnes peccaverunt” to be “in whom [Adam] all sinned”.

(The Greek can be transliterated ef’ ho pantes hemarton.) Well, Augustine didn’t actually use the Vulgate, which was being translated during his lifetime, but the sometimes not very accurate Old Latin translations. But his Latin version seems to have been similar to the Vulgate here. Doug continues:

the Augustinian interpretation of Paul’s “ἐφ᾽ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον” as meaning “in whom all sinned” makes it the most disastrous preposition in history. All modern translations agree that its proper meaning is “because.”

More precisely, “the most disastrous preposition” is ἐφ᾽ ef’, a contracted form of epi meaning “on”. The Greek phrase ἐφ᾽ ᾧ ef’ ho literally means “on which”, or possibly “on whom”, but is commonly used to mean “because”, or perhaps “in that”. The problem is that the Latin rendering of ἐφ᾽ ᾧ, in quo, is ambiguous between “in which” and “in whom” (I’m not sure if it can also mean simply “because” or “in that”), and Augustine understood it as meaning “in whom”, i.e. “in Adam”.

So, according to Augustine all sinned “in Adam”, which he understood as meaning that because Adam sinned every other human being, each of his descendants, is counted as a sinner. This is his doctrine of “original sin”, that every human is born a sinner and deserves death because of it. He may have taken up this idea because it agreed with his former Manichaean theology. This teaching is fundamental to most Protestant as well as Roman Catholic teaching today. For example, it underlies the Protestant (not just Calvinist) teaching of total depravity, that the unsaved person can do nothing good, a teaching for which there is little biblical basis apart from Augustine’s misunderstanding which was followed by Calvin.

Augustine was indeed right to oppose the teaching (or alleged teaching) of the British or Irish teacher Pelagius, that humans are intrinsically good and can make themselves acceptable to God by good works. But Augustine’s view of the matter takes things too far in the opposite direction, further than can be justified by the biblical text.

For the far more likely meaning of the Greek text of Romans 5:12 is that all are counted as sinners because each person individually has sinned. On this view there is perhaps some kind of tendency to sin passed down from Adam to others, but there is no actual guilt. This is consistent with the Old Testament teaching of Ezekiel in which

The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child.

Ezekiel 18:20 (TNIV)


Augustine's mistake about original sin - Gentle Wisdom

This has nothing to do with the topic. But you can always start a thread.

 

[Wordkeeper]

This has nothing to do with the topic. But you can always start a thread.

Prevenient Grace is supposed to be given to overcome the effects of Original Sin.

The doctrine of Original Sin itself is based on a wrong translation of the text.

You guys are arguing about a non entity.

 

[Hammster]

Prevenient Grace is supposed to be given to overcome the effects of Original Sin.

The doctrine of Original Sin itself is based on a wrong translation of the text.

You guys are arguing about a non entity.

That may be. But it's what the thread is about.

 

[Wordkeeper]

That may be. But it's what the thread is about.

Okay.

 

[Jwlickliter]

JESUS says ... that they are changed ... such that they COME to the LIGHT.

They didn't come before ... they are coming now. Though He does not explain what change has occurred, there has to be one ...

Yeah in most churches where they believe in Jesus they describe the feeling. They say it's a heart condition.

After I found Jesus then I felt like selfless service came into my life.

 

[Rescued One]

Total depravity (also called radical corruption or pervasive depravity) is a theological doctrine derived from the Augustinian concept of original sin. It is the teaching that, as a consequence of the Fall of Man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin as a result of their fallen nature and, apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God, refrain from evil, or accept the gift of salvation as it is offered.

Augustinian, Calvin and Arminius don't determine my beliefs. I wasn't raised in a Christian home.

Here is why I don't believe fallen man can choose to follow Christ:

Faith is a gift of God and humans can't manufacture it.

The whole world is wicked (not politically correct!):

1 John 5 KJV
19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

1 John 5 NIV
We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

The natural man doesn't understand spiritual things and several natural men whom I know not only don't care about the Bible or Christ, but find both the Bible and Christianity distasteful.

1 Corinthians 2
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Is everyone spiritual?

Romans 3
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

If they have Prevenient Grace, why don't they understand? Why is everyone under the control of the devil if they have this grace?

In Acts 26 Paul is sent to deliver the Gentiles from the power of Satan:

17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

2 Timothy 2
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Those are my reasons.

Prevenient Grace:
For John Wesley, prevenient grace is available to all, such that there is no “natural man” left in a purely fallen state without a measure of God’s restorative grace. Furthermore, prevenient grace is salvific in direction.

This means the Spirit of God works not just to restore certain faculties of humanity or to limit human sin, but ultimately directs people to the work of Christ.
What is Prevenient Grace?

 

[Rescued One]

Yeah in most churches where they believe in Jesus they describe the feeling. They say it's a heart condition.

After I found Jesus then I felt like selfless service came into my life.

I've never heard it described as a feeling except in Mormonism.

 

[Jwlickliter]

I've never heard it described as a feeling except in Mormonism.

Talk to a baptist.

Honestly I felt more like helping people. If I got something out it cool other than that I wasn't worried about it.

 

[Rescued One]

Faith and repentance are two sides of the same coin. One cannot exist without the other occurring simultaneously. If there is no repentance then there is no true faith. If there is no faith then there is no true repentance.

That sounds plausible.

 

[Jwlickliter]

That sounds plausible.

I spent a short time in Mormon church. They seemed nice and help people alot.

No really they did. Very pushy with there religion. That's why I said a short time.

 

[Rescued One]

Talk to a baptist.

Honestly I felt more like helping people. If I got something out it cool other than that I wasn't worried about it.

I've talked to several Baptists. Do you know how many kinds of Baptists there are? If I had spoken to a heretical branch of Baptists, I would have expressed my disagreement that people don't need to be changed by the Holy Spirit. We are saved completely by God's grace throught the faith He gives us. The genuine faith that God gives results in doing good works to glorify God. Being born again by the Holy Spirit is what matters. That isn't something we can cause. I believe there will be many Baptists in heaven.

John 10: 26 -30, John 14: 15-21, Ephesians 2:10, 2 Corinthians 5:17

 

[Jwlickliter]

I've talked to several Baptists. Do you know many kinds of Baptists there are? If I had spoken to a heretical branch of Baptists, I would have expressed my disagreement that people don't need to be changed by the Holy Spirit. We are saved completely by God's grace throught the faith He gives us. The genuine faith that God gives results in doing good works to glorify God. Being born again by the Holy Spirit is what matters. That isn't something we can cause. I believe there will be many Baptists in heaven.

John 10: 26 -30, John 14: 15-21, Ephesians 2:10, 2 Corinthians 5:17

To be honest with you, there's no perfect one anywhere. They are all doing there best if it involves God. We are human running churches now.

 

[Rescued One]

I spent a short time in Mormon church. They seemed nice and help people alot.

No really they did. Very pushy with there religion. That's why I said a short time.

They can't have eternal life apart from many, many requirements (temple marriage, baptism and other ordinances for the dead, faith in three gods who rule the universe, every member a missionary to friends and neighbors, etc.).

 

[Jwlickliter]

They can't have eternal life apart from many, many requirements (temple marriage, baptism and other ordinances for the dead, faith in three gods who rule the universe, every member a missionary to friends and neighbors, etc.).

You think it was evil or good?

 

[Rescued One]

If you are just going to post links, please don't. This makes it not a discussion.

Thanks.

Sorry.

 

[Rescued One]

You think it was evil or good?

Start a conversation with me so the thread can stay on topic.

 

[Rescued One]

Jesus' death provided atonement with God for us.

So, no, His death was not superfluous.

Is everyone saved?